Advanced Marksmanship  natural point of aim?

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  • Apr 12, 2001
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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Look who spinning here..

    I never said you abandon anything but there are trade offs which require you index on the other fundamentals in order to prop up the short leg of the table. I would also submit hitting a 3" moving target is a bit better than simply calling it a hit, it's not a simple task but a necessary one for any tactical shooter, LE, Mil, or TacComp.

    No, I think Graham hit the nail on the head, One Trick Pony, that is pretty obvious as there is answer that doesn't require you to abandon your NPA. simply modify and adapt to the movement. I failed to see anyone advocate your "all or nothing" mentality, which is classic spin.
     

    The Animal

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never said you abandon anything but there are trade offs which require you index on the other fundamentals in order to prop up the short leg of the table. I would also submit hitting a 3" moving target is a bit better than simply calling it a hit, it's not a simple task but a necessary one for any tactical shooter, LE, Mil, or TacComp.</div></div>

    I'm a huge advocate for NPA as Sterling suggests but Frank is correct. Sometimes other fundamentals must be relied upon to make a hit at a tactical comp, 3Gun, Trap, Skeet, IPSC, or other shooting event where NPA is improvised. Extremely short time constraints or a prop where your shooting off a step, bunker, 55 gallon drum, barricade, tractor tire, weak side, back seat of a vehicle, roof top, etc., on a given stage does not allow for proper NPA. In fact, many stages are configured where it's impossible to use your NPA just to test other fundamental skills.

    Slung up at a HP match or SB match...your NPA better be on.

    An example of NPA out the window! Good luck getting directly behind that sum-bitch!
    IMG_9190.jpg
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KNIGHT11B4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it is impossible to hit where desired without NPA?

    Im sorry I'm not buying it. Obviously one would want NPA but it is possible to accurately send a round without NPA. Will your percentage of accurate hits drop, for sure, but it doesn't mean that it never happens.

    </div></div>
    Without adjustment of NPA you will not hit exactly where aimed. And, since NPA errors are angular errors, the error produced by not making an NPA adjustment will increase with distance.

    There are other elements to a steady position, these are muscular relaxation and bone/artificial support. It's obvious, the standing position does not allow for complete muscular relaxation or full support from bone or artificial aids; therefore, hitting where aimed in the standing position does not yield the sort of results possible from the prone position.

    As I alluded to in earlier posts, constraints and conditions do not alter facts, and while a "trade-off" may be one's reality my point, as it applies to this thread, is trade offs are not conductive to the best outcomes, and, a shooter should practice to develop motor memory to better assure the elements and factors of a steady position can be applied on demand in a wide range of scenarios.

    One thing for sure, to hit the target the rifle needs to be pointed at the target. It can be steered to the target with muscle or movement of the body. If body movement can get the shooter on target as fast as muscle, why not benefit from it. Also, if the target is considered as the rifle is shouldered, with practice, NPA can sometimes be found intuitively.

    One more thing, the big picture here is what sort of practice will get the shooter to where he wants to be. I wonder, what does the shooter who is shooting at dots or anything else for that matter want to get out of it? I ask this since it's clear some novice shooters, who are attempting to learn how to shoot all on their own, will pick-up advice here and roll with it without any understanding for how such advice is going to get them to their destination.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    >>Without adjustment of NPA you will not hit exactly where aimed. And, since NPA errors are angular errors, the error produced by not making an NPA adjustment will increase with distance.

    That is a fundamentaly false statement. What is required is to maintain the sight picture through the recoil impule in a consistent manner. NPA helps that process, but it is not a REQUIREMENT. Failure to get NPA will NOT automatically prohibit accuracy, but it will make consistent accuracy more difficult and will make rapid followup shots more difficult as well.

    The purpose of such drills is to teach the shooter to deal with reality, rather than a neatly manicured square range on their own time frame. If you understand the actual object of NPA is to control the recoil impluse straight to the rear, you either learn how to get the same effect by other methods when you cannot get a conventional position, or you learn what corrections might be required as a result of the position.

    The real world requires that you be able to hit a 1 MOA target from the position offered, in a unknown time limit dictated by the target. If that means shooting from your support side off a tree limb while wearing your ruck, then it is what it is. Understand that the PURPOSE of all the fundamental principles is really pretty simple. Create the proper sight alignment / soght picture, control the trigger and follow through to control the recoil impluse until the bullet has left the barrel.

    NPA, bone/articicial support, breathing, etc. are all just means to an end. These things make consistency easier to achieve. They are all important, and need to be understood and implemented at an unconcious level whenver it's physically possible to do so.

    When it's NOT possible you need to learn to improvise a solution that gets the same effect.

    I'll say it again, the site name is "Sniper's Hide", not "High Power Central". What we discuss here certainly draws from that area of study, but it is not limited by it.
     

    pickpick

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    I'm glad this thread came back to the top. Going back through and reading it has helped me understand some things I have been neglecting. Thanks.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Cory said,
    "That is a fundamentaly false statement. What is required is to maintain the sight picture through the recoil impule in a consistent manner. NPA helps that process, but it is not a REQUIREMENT. Failure to get NPA will NOT automatically prohibit accuracy, but it will make consistent accuracy more difficult and will make rapid followup shots more difficult as well".

    Cory,

    You can't discern true from false, since you, apparently, are not a good enough shot to realize that even with just a minuscule amount of muscle, used to maintain aim, results will be inconsistent. You have yet to discover that muscle cannot be maintained consistently. It's like Jello. Of course, what you do is not what I do; and, since what you do does not require perfection to get the job done, that may explain why you don't understand what I'm talking about. One more thing, maintaining consistent control of the rifle from the time the trigger is pulled to the time the bullet clears the bore assures the angle and arc created between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet departure is consistent too. This consistency is made possible by being cognizant of the need to make the 5 factors of a steady position consistent while shouldering the rifle. This is done BEFORE NPA is adjusted. Like adjustment of NPA, making the 5 factors of a steady position consistent shot to shot is essential to hitting exactly where aimed. These elements and factors support the principles of marksmanship, sight alignment and trigger control.

    Results in the lab, however, if you will, are not likely produce-able in the field. Considering cold bore, fowled bore, temp, wind, and other things which influence hitting where aimed, shooting to an earlier zeroed condition, even if a steady position can be produced to support the two firing tasks, will still not yield zero dispersion, which, for general shooting, may not matter. Nevertheless, practice schedules which help a shooter realize the effects for a consistent shooter, gun, and ground relationship should be pursued if for nothing else to see what is possible. Also, shooting in NRA LR also will give a shooter a hint of what's possible, especially for those who think they know all there is to know and yet still lose in such events. Remember, these events require nothing more than knowledge of basic marksmanhip and motor memory to win.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    The statement was
    "Without adjustment of NPA you <span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">will not</span></span> hit exactly where aimed. And, since NPA errors are angular errors, the error produced by not making an NPA adjustment will increase with distance."

    I stand by my statement that that is factually untrue. I'm in full agreement that NPA is needed for CONSISTENT results. Lacking that does NOT however, automatically prohibit hitting where you aim. If you want to alter that to CONSISTENTLY, or UNLIKELY, I'd drop the issue. The problem is NOT that you CAN"T hit, it's that you can't do it each and every time. The miss percentage goes up as fundamentals go down.

    I see it done here all the time. A client will perfectly center punch the 1" dot at 100, then have lost the target in the scope completely since his NPA is off and the gun recoil shifts the gun off line. They can't perform a 20 second 5 dot drill, since they can't manage the recoil impulse and get back on target. They can punch two of 5 dots, then it's over, shots everywhere trying to make time. Fix the position, get them to understand, 5 dots, no problem, plenty of time.

    Point being they do hit where aimed, without NPA. Sometimes they even hit with a ratty trigger press, uneven grip pressure, bad cheek weld, you name it. They just cannot repeat that success every time because their fundamentals suck. They also suffer from the "flyer" nonsense, due to the same issue. 3 shots same hole, 2 off who knows where, never the same place. Fix the faults, 5 shots one hole. Now, since we don't need to adjust the sights from when they were not in proper position, I'd have to say they did hit where they aimed, just not consistently.

    IIRC, the NRA HP 1000 yard 10 ring is 20" in diameter. We work to hit that or smaller at more than half again the distance, so I'm pretty sure we need nothing less than the same degree of "perfection" that you need if we want to do it more than once. I've got video posted on youtube hitting a 10" plate in the center of a steel target at 1450+ yards 3 times in a row, I don't see that as being a whole lot less demanding than hitting the 10 ring of a HP target.

    If you read my post, I agree with you on the importance of all the factors. I just also know that it's not always possible to get them into a field position, at which point you need to be able to cope. I understand that in NRA HP competition you don't win without strict adhearance to the fundamentals. Too many shots are fired over the course, which makes consistency hugely important. But, you know the exact time you have, the exact range, the target is nailed to the ground and the firing point is always firm and level. If I somehow get all that, you bet I'm looking for that 'perfect' position just the same as you are. I just don't get those conditions all that often. So now success depends on the ability to get as much of the fundamentals involved as possible and deal with the rest. In that case, a 10 ring hit is every bit as good as a pinwheel X, in fact, in many cases, I'll take the 9 ring and for practical purposes, the 'scoreing value' if you will, is exactly identical. So, for some loss of perfection, I get the same practical results.

    I'm not trying to diminish the importance of the fundamental of marksmanship. In fact, I think it's imperative that you master them BEFORE you start exploring what you can do when it NOT POSSIBLE to get the position you want.

    You tend to speak in absolutes, it seems to me because from your perspective perfection is the only option and the only goal worth persuing. When it comes to practial shooting, there are very few absolutes. I will often repeat the mantra, "Say you can or say you can't, either way, you're right."

    If you say you can't hit where you aim without getting your NPA perfect, you are absolutely right.

    I choose to use the work can, then I figure out how to do it.
     

    Swift

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PS... drink all the coffee and Energy drinks you want. If you drink coffee every morning before work, at work, and follow up with an energy drink in the afternoon, then you decide on Saturday to shoot and "not' have any coffee or Red Bull, you'll have a bigger issue than if you drink it.

    it's an old wives tale not to drink coffee... tell a guy who smokes that on the morning when he going to shoot he can't have a cigarette until he is done shooting. How relaxed do you think he will be ?

    smile.gif
    </div></div>

    I shudder thinking about the proposition.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Just to illustrate, here are some positions from practical matches I shot in.

    Markgunsite.jpg

    DSCN3226web.jpg

    08152010019.jpg

    002b.jpg


    NPA? Muscular Relaxation? Bone or Artificial Support? These positions lack one or all, yet we still need to hit a 1 to 1.5 MOA target at 400 to 1000 yards, no wind flags, 5 seconds for a second shot. So, that's a 10 ring shot or X ring shot. Yes, you CAN, just not everytime, at least no one I know can do it everytime, on demand.

    No, there is no special sight adjustment for the position, and you would not know it if there was, since you've probably never been in this jacked up spot before. Learn to cope.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    BLASPHEMY !!!

    <span style="font-weight: bold">S</span>terling <span style="font-weight: bold">S</span>hooter has spoke, or as I like to call him, Herr Highpower
     

    KNIGHT11B4

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLASPHEMY !!!

    <span style="font-weight: bold">S</span>terling <span style="font-weight: bold">S</span>hooter has spoke, or as I like to call him, Herr Highpower </div></div>

    Someone just read the Marine thread...lmao
     

    CoryT

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    I am a heretic, and shall certainly burn for my sins against the Church of High Power.

    However, the Earth is not flat, and no amount of preaching will make it so. I remain an unrepentant sinner!
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a heretic, and shall certainly burn for my sins against the Church of High Power.

    However, the Earth is not flat, and no amount of preaching will make it so. I remain an unrepentant sinner!</div></div>

    You can hit almost where aimed from any position/condition; but, while practical accuracy may get the job done it does not alter the facts of basic marksmanship. And, when NPA is adjusted the results will always be better than when not adjusted. Nevertheless, I think everyone understands you do what you've got to do for what's paramount. But, since LL can't argue facts he talks about what I do being different than what he does. Thing is, basic marksmanship is the same for all of us. And although he does not do it, NRA LR quickly proves there's no substitute for basic marksmanship-application of everything important to good shooting; and, when such skills are perfected, results can be phenomenal. Unfortunately, most shooters have no interest perfecting basic marksmanship skills to the highest levels because there's little incentive to do it, or they want more action. At any rate Cory, your thoughtful posts have allowed me to understand your point of view. I've enjoyed the exchange of ideas. You're a good sport.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Sterling

    You're such and tool and you;re the one who can't do anything but talk like a broken record. I have actually done what you say I haven't. Being a Marine, 5th Award Expert,I have shot your discipline, iron sights out to 500. We shoot, sitting Kneeling Standing and Prone for score. I have also shot F Class and I am in the middle of working on a Square Range Course for Tactical Shooters that more represents a method of fire closer to F Class to help them. I understand this issue completely. Same reason I am ordering a 3 Position, $3000 Air Rifle so i can continue my education in marksmanship. So until you have a clue I recommend YOU get out more.

    Clearly, and according to everyone who reads your posts, you;re a ONE TRICK PONY who hasn't bothered to explore anything else, but what you feel is the end all. You have a truly ELITIST attitude, simply because you don't know.

    A member asks about shooting off a Bipod, -- You Answer with Sling Shooting

    You couldn't answer about shooting a mover because you don't do it, you can't talk about shooting under stress because you don't do it.

    If it's not AMU doctrine, you poo poo it. Well there have been soldiers who took instruction from you and who have worked along side you and have stated without hesitation, you're not all that, by any stretch of the imagination.

    For you it is all or nothing, for us we are able to recognize the difference. We understand given time and opportunity you set all that to the very best of your ability, however when you can't, which is more often then not in tactical shooting, you have to learn how to adapt, how to trade off, how to index. You on the other hand have never explored this, never experienced this.

    here is a test, go get someone to verify, and lay in the snow for what can be 1 hour or 8 hours, or longer and have a person in the pits with a target ready. Lay in that snow waiting for the target to appear, not by your choice. Lay there waiting until it finally appears and go to gun within 3 seconds of the target stand stopping. See if you can hold the position being cold, maybe wet, certainly hungry and tell me you're not gonna trade off some fundamental.

    You don't know because you haven't done it... I have, I have done what you do, I understand it, I keep the HP Coaches Manual on my desk and reference not only the FM1-3b but the High Power manuals. In fact I have the book on rifle shooting from Launi Meilli Gold Medal Olympic shooter sitting on my nightstand right now. Because I know marksmanship is more than one person's opinion. I understand the fundamentals, much better than you'll ever because you are myopic, you have a singular opinion and that opinion only works to one end, not multiple.

    So, if you're gonna use my name, at least get it right, Facts, trust me I have the facts because I go out and do this stuff, more so than you I am sure. I can do what you do, you can't do what I can, simply because you have never tried.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    This thread is simply about NPA and facts about NPA are independent of your opinion about other topics. But, nice try, your last post included everything but the kitchen sink.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    NPA in the context of Sniper's Hide...

    NPA in the context of tactical shooting

    NPA in the context of a tactical competition

    talk about nice try, simply go back and read who has answers in the context of SH and who doesn't.

    Clearly I understand the ultimate goal when developing your NPA, but I also understand how to put it in context of the shooter's discipline. Something you fail to do.

    You're all or nothing approach is the nice try, again, because you can't do it.

    You still failed to tell us how to set up your NPA to engage a moving target multiple times ?
     
    C

    captrichardson

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Since this one is still going, and it is throwing around various view points, I will chuck some more food for thought into the mix.

    Shooting Fundamentals are Shooting Fundamentals, however do they really apply to each shooting sport/scenario and do they have the same amount of impact? I am going to say NO, and here is what I am talking about:

    Scenario 1 – NRA Palma Shooter at 1,000 yards prone with a sling & iron sights, or a NRA High Power Shooter at 200 yards standing/unsupported. The only thing getting and keeping the rifle on target is the shooter! Any movement that the shooter makes is transmitted to the rifle and impacts the point of aim / point of impact. In this scenario all shooting fundamentals are critical, especially something like NPOA, because all of the fundamentals are required to get and keep the rifle on target. In this scenario, there are no “external factors” to help with making the shot, it is strictly the shooter, the rifle, and the fundamentals.

    Scenario 2 – NRA F-Open Shooter at 1,000 yards with a front rest & rear bag, or a Tactical Shooter at 1,000 yards with a bipod & rear bag. In this case the shooter has “external factors”, the front & rear artificial supports, which they can employ to reduce the impact of certain shooting fundamentals. IE, once the F-Open Shooter sets their front rest & rear bag in the proper location, then NPOA has very little impact on their shots because the artificial supports are doing 80%-90% of the work keeping the rifle aligned with the target. Fundamentals such as breathing control and trigger pull are still critical, but other fundamentals such as sight alignment are not because iron sights have been replaced with optics.

    Scenario 3 – Benchrest Shooter at 100 yards with a heavy rifle on a mechanical rest system. In this scenario the shooter has absolutely no care for NPOA, sight alignment, or breathing. Actually in this scenario, you can throw out 80%-90% of the shooting fundamentals that the shooter in scenario 1 has to deal with to make their shot.

    Not sure if I made it, but the point I am trying to make is that not every shooting scenario is going to be the same and as such the degree that every shooting fundamental is going to come into play will vary. A tactical shooter who is in a perfectly flat prone position with a bipod/bag is going to be relying on certain shooting fundamentals to a much lesser degree than a tactical shooter who is standing with no support other than a sling.

    I would also add as pointed out above, comparing some shooting sports such as NRA High Power to Tactical Matches, is pretty much like trying to compare apples to oranges. “Shooting is Not Equal”, what I mean is something such as NRA Palma Match requires a much higher degree of understanding and mastering shooting fundamentals than shooting something such as an F-Open Match.

    Every shooter should always strive to insure they are addressing the shooting fundamentals as required for their given shooting scenario, because the reality is if they do not it will have a negative impact on the outcome. However worrying about shooting fundamentals which do not really come into play IMHO is pretty much a waste of time and effort.

    Best of Luck,
    M Richardson

    EDIT - looks like I was typing at the same time as Frank was posting!
     

    CoryT

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    SS, I do appreciate what you try to say, and sometimes you are exactly on point. Often though, it's a lot like a Newtonian physics professor trying to deal with a quantum problem. He may be a Nobel laureate. He's crunched all the numbers and he KNOWS the answer. Except of course he's wrong.

    Since quantum physics holds no meaning to him, he actually feels sorry for those who can't see the answer, for which he has the mathematical proof. He's right, he knows he right and he can prove it. Except of course he's wrong.

    The quantum guys can show him all the empirical evidence and experimental data for quantum entanglement, teleportation, etc., to no avail. It's all nonsense.

    Sometimes one of us quantum guys can get a Newtonian to come over to the dark side. I might not get to you, but maybe someone else might read this and say, hmm, he might just have a point there. In which case my job is done.

    Here's to continued success in your endeavors sir.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NPA in the context of Sniper's Hide...

    NPA in the context of tactical shooting

    NPA in the context of a tactical competition

    talk about nice try, simply go back and read who has answers in the context of SH and who doesn't.

    Clearly I understand the ultimate goal when developing your NPA, but I also understand how to put it in context of the shooter's discipline. Something you fail to do.

    You're all or nothing approach is the nice try, again, because you can't do it.

    You still failed to tell us how to set up your NPA to engage a moving target multiple times ? </div></div>

    NPA is not some sort of abstract concept that requires a context for meaning; but, if there is a context it's basic marksmanship>rifle shooting>elements>consistency. It's not about the nature of the target. Now, you've danced all around this since you cannot debate the facts. Instead, you've obscured the facts with wedge driving tricks, like inflammatory comments about my HP activity, or comments which demean my credentials. This is what you do when you can't argue the simple fact that proper adjustment of NPA will yield a better result than when adjustment of NPA is not addressed. Whether a shooter's constraints or conditions allow for NPA to be properly addressed is another matter.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Read the initial responses to this post...

    You're clearly out of your element and to say, NPA = Absolute + Cross arms and make sound is all you do.

    As many have addressed here, there absolutely is context, and context does matter in shooting. MOST here understand that, you fail too.

    I understand consistency, I understand working on each fundamental to the point of perfection, especially given time and opportunity, definitely in practice.

    You continue to loose credibility on your own because nobody but you talks in absolutes, nobody but you doesn't understand context, nobody but you is saying that without a finely tuned NPA can you expect to hit anything.

    SS, you dig your own holes, made clear by the clumps of dirt every time you post, I really don't have to say a thing, you do it yourself. Now go back and read page ONE where you had no response to my initial post but to a slightly expanded line on support.
     

    jasonahull

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    How do you achive NPA when shooting off hand?
    Try that and close your eyes, breath twice and see if your still on target when you open them.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    NPA for the standing is very important and is achieved the same way as using a handgun.

    NPA in the standing is one of the most important fundamentals, and without NPA in the standing the odds of that hit are really low.
     

    jasonahull

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    I think if I held on target off hand and closed my eyes, when I opened them I would be no where near it. Probablly because I would get dizzy.
    smile.gif


    Maybe I will try it.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    It's not exactly done like that although if you use the Olympic Style you can, the biggest issue with that style of offhand is the weight and balance of the rifle.

    The Olympic guys balance the rifle, and adjust the weights in the back to level out the rifle when held by 3 fingers in the middle. Our tactical sticks are not set up that way, so there are techniques to snap shoot in the offhand because if you have to take an unsupported standing shot with AW things have gone horribly wrong for you.
     

    jasonahull

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    So NPA is not achieved only when laying behind the rifle.
    Some posts I read, from one who will remain unnamed, made me think otherwise.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So NPA is not achieved only when laying behind the rifle.
    Some posts I read, from one who will remain unnamed, made me think otherwise. </div></div>

    No it is achieved in all positions, and the further off the ground you get, like sitting, kneeling, standing, the more important it becomes, because you will relax when you execute the shot and the rifle will settle into your natural position. Which is why you set NPA. You don't want the natural reaction to recoil on your body to move the rifle off target.

    NPA is used in everything from handgun to archery etc.
     

    Graham

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NPA is used in everything from handgun to archery etc. </div></div>Most men attempt to achieve it when urinating.
    laugh.gif
     

    jasonahull

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    So what is the argument that was being made by other guy?
    Seems that without a proper understanding of NPA there is no marksmanship, especally with handguns and archery.
     

    jasonahull

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NPA is used in everything from handgun to archery etc. </div></div>Most men attempt to achieve it when urinating.
    laugh.gif
    </div></div>

    smile.gif
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Read what Cory wrote

    Without the fundamentals, there is no consistency, but you can hit what you are aiming at, Sterling just doesn't consider a "hit" in the same context. Forget the fact he is not shooting any where as tight as we do, and our accuracy is better than his overall. Saying we can't hit is wrong, saying we can't hit consistently with out it is closer to right.

    The question is in the context of "time and opportunity" in a tactical situation things like "time and opportunity" are not alway present. So setting up the shot in haste can compromise one or more fundamental to varying levels, the better shooters understand the compromise and focus on the other legs of the table to hold up our lunch.

    It's the "all or nothing" mentality which is incorrect. Life and shooting is not always that cut and dry.

    Sterling is staying all foundations are made of concrete, which maybe correct, but there are different kinds of foundations, as they are not all created equal. We are saying not only are there stone foundations, to which Sterling might say, they use concrete to hold the stones together, we are saying that not all foundations are of the Slab type. However both kinds have concrete.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    Also understand Sterling is talking in the context of using a Sling, where NPA controls his shot much more than using a bipod or some form of rest / support.

    Sling supported shooting, even prone is much more influenced by NPA than using a rest.

    Again, Context of the shot.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also understand Sterling is talking in the context of using a Sling, where NPA controls his shot much more than using a bipod or some form of rest / support.

    Sling supported shooting, even prone is much more influenced by NPA than using a rest.

    Again, Context of the shot. </div></div>

    Since being on target and muscular relaxation are both possible from a prone supported position, even when NPA has not been properly adjusted, it may also be more difficult to discern when NPA has been properly adjusted... In the standing position, the greatest benefit to working for exact NPA is that it increases the odds for wobbling in rather than wobbling out. I guess I'm agreeing with you about those observations. Where you have misread me is regarding my statement about not hitting where aimed when NPA has not been adjusted. I'm not alluding to missing the target, I'm implying greater dispersion between point of aim and point of impact is likely; and, since this is angular error the displacement will increase with distance. Ironically, it's when shooting from prone at LR that discerning properly adjusted NPA from a supported position can be most difficult; yet, if not addressed, even a minuscule amount of error will preclude the best results. Wins go to those who apply the elements and factors of a steady position consistently, and you know this very well. For me, when shouldering the rifle, according to constraints and conditions, I will make an effort to either consider or not consider the target as I build the position, For HP and LR competitions I always build the position without allowing the target to distract me. After the position has been built and sights aligned I will then adjust NPA. To assure students of basic marksmanship address NPA, selecting a target after the position is built will assure success. Selection can be tied to index cards.
     

    The Animal

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you achive NPA when shooting off hand?
    Try that and close your eyes, breath twice and see if your still on target when you open them.
    </div></div>

    NPA for offhand takes some practice. You need to build a good form. To summarize an illustration: First, place your feet appx 45 degrees from the target, shoulder width apart. Second, bring your left elbow (assuming you are a right handed shooter) into your left side of your body to form a reverse pyramid with your arm. You never want to hold up the rifle with muscle. You want to use bone support as much as possible. Third, bring the rifle up to your face. Don't bring your face to the rifle. Once it's comfortable and your not using neck muscles or arm muscles to hold up the rifle, close your eyes and move the rifle around a little bit. Open your eyes and if your not on target, move your feet slightly until the crosshairs are pointed where you want. You should never be using muscle to point the rifle where you want the bullet to go. Adjust your stance accordingly so when you close your eyes again, move your rifle around slightly and when totally relaxed open them and you should be on target. Once you are steady on the target, if you are holding your breath in an attempt to make your shot, the shot should be within 3-8 seconds.

    The biggest mistake that most shooters make, even advanced shooters, when shooting offhand, is not NPA or their form but their lack of follow-through. Make sure your shot is through your target before you give up on aiming at the intended spot on the target. Follow-through is important as NPA for offhand shooting.
     

    X-fan

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    Re: natural point of aim?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>Most men attempt to achieve it when urinating.
    laugh.gif
    [/quote]
    BWAHAHA!
    As a little boy my father caught me half way across the bathroom experimenting with my NPA. Alas the distraction was more than I could bear, my muscles tightened, my NPA faltered, and my exposed ass felt the sting of the error of my way!
    smile.gif


    Dad still laughs about that one!
    I'm nearing 50...That shit never heals
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