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Need to taste the kool-aid. Question about 6.5 SAUM

M

manscout

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 5, 2017
147
6
I've wanted a saum for some time and with the warner flatlines it's solidified that desire. So, the situation is i'm tight for money. I have a 308 savage that i would not mind rebarreling but i was hoping to get into a different action for this as i have a few savages. Can't afford a custom action. A cheap tikka (if i can find a magnum action under $500) seemed kinda appealing. I've also considered finding the cheapest howa and having that blueprinted. The goal is to get this done with as little money as possible to leave some funds for those fancy bullets and a new set of dies etc. the IDEA is to run 140 eld's or similar "regular" bullets the vast majority of the time but switch to the 122 gr flatlines when i shoot 2000+ yards. It's not a hunting or a tactical competition gun and i have no limits as to how heavy or what length barrel to use. So what's the deal with barrel length/twist, mag lengths and chambering? anyone know of someone who could do the work without charging a premium for their name?
 
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I don't have answers for you but the kool-aid taste good... I really like my saum barrel. It's a neat round but I probably wouldn't have one if it wasn't for hunting. I wanted a flat shooting deer barrel for my DTA and it fit the bill. Brass isn't always easy to find or cheap though.
 
Josh Kunz over at a Patriot Valley is the brain behind the Flatlines. He just started doing barrel nuts and profits for Tikkas I would call him.

I personally like the Tikka actions. They are pretty fantastic out of the box. Plus Manners makes some nice stock for them now too.
 
jonesturf said:
Josh Kunz over at a Patriot Valley is the brain behind the Flatlines. He just started doing barrel nuts and profits for Tikkas I would call him.

I personally like the Tikka actions. They are pretty fantastic out of the box. Plus Manners makes some nice stock for them now too.
Click to expand...

i've tried getting into contact with him many times. no luck.
 
Josh was on vacation awhile ago but he never got back to me about a TL3 action so I ended up going else where. I'm a big fan of tikka actions and think they are amazing at the price point. Would be an excellent host for a SAUM barrel.
 
Seems like a wild goose chase to me, and kinda weird that on the one hand you're talking about shooting the most expensive projectiles out there at super long range but yet are balking at the cost of custom hardware. Apologize if this sounds harsh, but your ideas seem somewhat schizo to me. If you don't already have a receiver and want to stick w/ something factory then why not get get a rifle chambered in 26 nosler? 6.5 SAUM is a pain to reload and brass is hard to find. A 26 nosler pushing these magic pills would probably be pretty awesome to behold. Might be even better in 28 nosler.
 
JGB02 said:
Seems like a wild goose chase to me, and kinda weird that on the one hand you're talking about shooting the most expensive projectiles out there at super long range but yet are balking at the cost of custom hardware. Apologize if this sounds harsh, but your ideas seem somewhat schizo to me. If you don't already have a receiver and want to stick w/ something factory then why not get get a rifle chambered in 26 nosler? 6.5 SAUM is a pain to reload and brass is hard to find. A 26 nosler pushing these magic pills would probably be pretty awesome to behold. Might be even better in 28 nosler.
Click to expand...

wow. thanks for the extremely helpful comment... smh. i've seen a factory savage action shoot 1/4" groups at 100. i've seen them make consistent hits at a mile. a custom action is nice but 100% not necessary. i posted what i did because there are those of us who don't buy into the elitist mindset. sure, the custom action might be slicker, perhaps slightly more reliable. but a tikka is remarkably nice and rivals custom actions for a quarter of the cost. the 122 flatlines are $1.15 each. that's not that expensive. especially considering you can get past 2200 yards supersonic. then when i don't want to shoot that far i can use eld's or berger hybrids or whatevers for a fraction of the price. not to mention the saum has some remarkable barrel life claims. if that makes me sound "schizo" to you, then i don't give a damn. and saying sorry before you call someone "schizo" makes you a punk bitch. get out of here.
btw. awesome teddy quote, perhaps you should abide by it.
 
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MachoKing said:
Did you say a Tikka magnum action for under 500?

http://www.eurooptic.com/tikka-t3-hunter-7mm-rem-mag-jrta370-with-rings.aspx

I bought one of these with the intent to eventually make it a 6.5 SAUM. I have a dummy round and I found that the Tikka mags fit the round perfectly just need a little filing in the feed rails so that the case pops up enough for the bolt to pick it up.
Click to expand...

very very nice my friend. i was looking at this last week in considering a wsm and it seems to fit perfectly for this as you say. glad it works out. i appreciate it!
 
RampedRaptor said:
Josh was on vacation awhile ago but he never got back to me about a TL3 action so I ended up going else where. I'm a big fan of tikka actions and think they are amazing at the price point. Would be an excellent host for a SAUM barrel.
Click to expand...

a friend of mine had the exact same issue. he's been waiting a ridiculous amount of time now and has to harass them to get an update only to hear it's going to be another 3-6 months each time or he's going on vacation yet again. thanks for the feedback. i appreciate it!
 
Call LRI and ask. I know they work with Tikka's and have a faster turnaround time than most shops.

I suggest sourcing as many parts as you can and send them there, or I should say whatever parts he doesn't stock right then. I also suggest going with a 7.25 0r 7.5 twist so you can get all the BC out of the Hornady 147's, which is what I intend to do on the next barrel for my 6.5 Saum. Could be that Warner or others will come out with even higher BC and heavier/longer 6.5 bullets later too which will necessitate a faster twist than 8.

 
Last I heard, and this is dated a year or so, was that LRI wasn't doing 6.5 SAUM.

Minimum 24" barrel if you want to stretch legs. I have a 28" barrel, can push over 3200fps with 140 ELDs if I really wanted to. Run 3155.

Twist... anything in the 1:8-1:9 range. I have a 1:8. Some people think a 1:8.7 is "optimized" for the faster speeds... whatever floats your boat.


I'm interested to try some of the new Warners. This spring/summer I'm sure I'll get around to it. I've been curious what 123gr class bullets will do anyway because a 123 Amax or ELD at 3400-3500fps would be a laser beam within 1000-- let alone the .6+ BC of the warner.


Edit: Go for .120" free bore. I'm running .081" and my rounds (140 ELDM) are at something like 2.810" with a 20 thou jump.
 
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manscout said:
a friend of mine had the exact same issue. he's been waiting a ridiculous amount of time now and has to harass them to get an update only to hear it's going to be another 3-6 months each time or he's going on vacation yet again. thanks for the feedback. i appreciate it!
Click to expand...

Josh just the other day announced that he's doing PVA now full time on IG I believe. Originally it was a part time thing for him but due to an overwhelming response to the quality of work he's putting out he's seen it fit to quit his engineering job and concentrate on it full time. Between that, the issues Bighorn had with the initial release of the TL3 (now solved), Shot Show, Flatlines, family, etc... the guy's been putting in a ton of hours. I can only see good things happening from here on out.

What's the barrel life like on thew 26 Nosler compared to the SAUM? I thought since Hornday started making brass the loading issues were minimal now.
 
LRI doesn't do saum. pva cannot be reached. running out of ideas.
 
i've tried getting into contact with him many times. no luck.
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manscout said:
pva cannot be reached. running out of ideas.
Click to expand...

Not sure when you tried to get in touch with me or how, I went through the queries from my website just now and everything up to yesterday has been replied to. Phone calls are handled, and I've worked a lot of long hours to get to a point where I can step into running PVA as a full time entity. The long hours continue but there's light at the end of the tunnel to get back inside triple digit hours every week.

I will continue to abstain from getting approval from the internet anonymous when/where my family goes on an annual 1 week vacation.


To offer constructive advice to the original query:

The Tikka is a great receiver, it's not well suited to WSM type cases (rebated case heads on oversize magnum bodies).
The Flatline 6.5's would do the job in a SAUM but it would also do 2000yd in a 26" 6.5 Creedmoor; my test rifle is exactly that. It's been to a mile and I know the ballistics work to 2000 but I don't have a place to shoot that far right now.

Alternates to try with more speed over the Creedmoor:
6.5 x 55 Swede
6.5 Addiction
6.5-284
6.5 PRC (6.5-300 Ruger Compact Mag) ---> this one is about 100fps slower than the SAUM but it doesn't have the oversize body and rebated rim.

Your current 308 Savage may already be able to get you plinking at a mile without changing the barrel. If it has a 10 twist you can readily shoot the 180 Flatline at impressive speeds and you can give the concept a try without spending anything except the cost of the bullets. Or another approach: Keep shooting the 308, just put on an 8.5tw prefit barrel and shoot the 198's at 2750+ from a long barrel. They will handily take you to 2000yd and you don't need to build out a whole new rifle.

I advocate against putting the SAUM/WSM into a Tikka for the same reason that I advocate against putting Lapua Mag size case heads in 700 size actions.
To that end, I won't take an order for a SAUM in a Tikka just like I won't take an order for a 589 case head in a 700/clone except under very special circumstances.











 
bohem said:
Not sure when you tried to get in touch with me or how, I went through the queries from my website just now and everything up to yesterday has been replied to. Phone calls are handled, and I've worked a lot of long hours to get to a point where I can step into running PVA as a full time entity. The long hours continue but there's light at the end of the tunnel to get back inside triple digit hours every week.

I will continue to abstain from getting approval from the internet anonymous when/where my family goes on an annual 1 week vacation.


To offer constructive advice to the original query:

The Tikka is a great receiver, it's not well suited to WSM type cases (rebated case heads on oversize magnum bodies).
The Flatline 6.5's would do the job in a SAUM but it would also do 2000yd in a 26" 6.5 Creedmoor; my test rifle is exactly that. It's been to a mile and I know the ballistics work to 2000 but I don't have a place to shoot that far right now.

Alternates to try with more speed over the Creedmoor:
6.5 x 55 Swede
6.5 Addiction
6.5-284
6.5 PRC (6.5-300 Ruger Compact Mag) ---> this one is about 100fps slower than the SAUM but it doesn't have the oversize body and rebated rim.

Your current 308 Savage may already be able to get you plinking at a mile without changing the barrel. If it has a 10 twist you can readily shoot the 180 Flatline at impressive speeds and you can give the concept a try without spending anything except the cost of the bullets. Or another approach: Keep shooting the 308, just put on an 8.5tw prefit barrel and shoot the 198's at 2750+ from a long barrel. They will handily take you to 2000yd and you don't need to build out a whole new rifle.

I advocate against putting the SAUM/WSM into a Tikka for the same reason that I advocate against putting Lapua Mag size case heads in 700 size actions.
To that end, I won't take an order for a SAUM in a Tikka just like I won't take an order for a 589 case head in a 700/clone except under very special circumstances.
Click to expand...

to say the very least i appreciate the very classy reply when i gave you no reason to treat me with such professionalism. you were my first choice from the beginning because of what i've heard of your professionalism, ability, and helpfulness but i did have problems contacting you. i am pretty set on the idea of the saum with the flatlines. i am open to suggestions but want something that's gonna give enough improvement over a .308 and 6.5cm to make a new rifle worth it. i was thinking of 300 wsm or win mag before but as i mentioned, the flatline in a saum is very intriguing. i was considering finding a cheap howa action and getting it trued for the saum or wsm. trying to find the best bang for the buck over what i have when it comes to reloading cost (i can run the 140 elds through the saum and have a pretty good improvement), barrel life, and range.
 
The SAUM is going to absolutely scream that 122.
Early BETA test shots were recorded over 3400 and that was just a SWAG at load data. I think with the latest high energy powders and some load dev in a 26+ inch barrel you'll see speeds approaching 3600fps.

Howa's are nice actions, the more with the Howa/Vanguard I do the more I appreciate them. The tenon size is a bit meatier than the Tikka too.

Caliber-wise the 300WSM can push the 198's from a 30" palma barrel handily past 3000fps, 3006 will break 2900 and nudge 2950 in an AI.
I don't have a 6.5 Addiction barrel spun up to try and probably won't for the sake of shooting 100rd of test data ammo but I'd expect it to be able to push the 122's north of 3400fps with a 26" barrel.
 
They haven't for probably 2-3 years. Lots of folks were having brass problems, I think not realizing they had to turn necks on pretty much everything except Hornady brass (which did not yet exist at that point). Even so, some people are still having problems with the Hornady stuff.
 
Ledzep said:
They haven't for probably 2-3 years. Lots of folks were having brass problems, I think not realizing they had to turn necks on pretty much everything except Hornady brass (which did not yet exist at that point). Even so, some people are still having problems with the Hornady stuff.
Click to expand...

yeah.. ive only heard bad things about the hornady brass but that's all there is besides the copper creek stuff. and that's $3 a case...
 
The first batch of Hornady 6.5 GAP 4S was garbage. I got 3 firings out of them before the primer pockets were too loose to load for. I hear the new brass is better but I'm never going to try since every time I have used Hornady brass, it has biten me on the end and they want to charge a premium price for a subpar product. Currently using Norma 7 SAUM brass without neck turning and I am on my 4th firing on a batch of 25 pieces, still tight on the primer pockets.
 
6.5 Saum, on my 6th cycle with Norma and primer pockets all plenty tight. Mine was a no turn reamer but I still needed to turn off a thou.
 
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manscout said:
wow. thanks for the extremely helpful comment... smh. i've seen a factory savage action shoot 1/4" groups at 100. i've seen them make consistent hits at a mile. a custom action is nice but 100% not necessary. i posted what i did because there are those of us who don't buy into the elitist mindset. sure, the custom action might be slicker, perhaps slightly more reliable. but a tikka is remarkably nice and rivals custom actions for a quarter of the cost. the 122 flatlines are $1.15 each. that's not that expensive. especially considering you can get past 2200 yards supersonic. then when i don't want to shoot that far i can use eld's or berger hybrids or whatevers for a fraction of the price. not to mention the saum has some remarkable barrel life claims. if that makes me sound "schizo" to you, then i don't give a damn. and saying sorry before you call someone "schizo" makes you a punk bitch. get out of here.
btw. awesome teddy quote, perhaps you should abide by it.
Click to expand...

Take a deep breath buddy, I'm only trying to help. You post that you have a 308 Savage gun and then talk big talk about shooting 2000+ yds away w/ flatlines but are not in the mood for spending on custom hardware. The longest I've gone to is 1290 yards, and I've needed to invest quite a bit in a optics, custom chamberings, etc. to get there. Most ELR rigs are purpose built. Mine, after optic, reloading gear and all bells and whistles is >$6K and I sourced all parts myself, and that doesn't even include things like steel, range finder, spotter, etc. If you know what you're doing, have at it and best of luck.

The reason I pitched the other calibers is LRI ditched the 6.5 SAUM after learning that many customers struggled with the reloading process. It's a pain in the butt that they had not accounted for when they bought it. Tikka rifles come standard in a long action, and I presume it's not too big of a deal to get a magnum bolt face for something more traditional. 6.5 SAUM would not ever be my first choice, but if you know what you're doing and are all set then go with it. Personally, I would shop for something more purpose built if ERL is what you want, as those rigs perform best when purpose built. A 300 WM w/ a 230 hybrid does pretty well. If you want a SAUM, I figure might as well go straight stick for a 7 SAUM as 7mm has way better BC bullets. It doesn't really matter what you do so long as you're happy with what you get.
 
I ran a 2nd batch piece of Hornady 6.5 SAUM brass with 10 firings of 62.0gr H1000 under a 140ELDM. Still held a primer, cut it in half with a mill, no real surprises inside.

I think the issue is carbon rings or something else. Some people still have problems.

I just loaded up my 3rd load on the 100 cases I'm normally cycling at 60.6gr H1000. Some primers went in a little easy to seat. I think they'll make 5 firings at least, but they are a little different from the one that I ran through 10 cycles. I also notice those cases that were easy to seat did have some ejector slot marks (M5 Mausingfield, just have a small rectangle cutout, not the usual circle swipe of a plunger style). I should not be experiencing high pressures with that load, because I worked all the way up to 62.0 before with no issues.

So I've thoroughly cleaned the bore with a bronze brush and I'm going to monitor it to see if it's carbon build up. I would like to find someone with a bore scope to check it out, also. H1000 is a sooty bastard and I would believe it if carbon buildup was causing problems.
 
Ledzep said:
I ran a 2nd batch piece of Hornady 6.5 SAUM brass with 10 firings of 62.0gr H1000 under a 140ELDM. Still held a primer, cut it in half with a mill, no real surprises inside.

I think the issue is carbon rings or something else. Some people still have problems.

I just loaded up my 3rd load on the 100 cases I'm normally cycling at 60.6gr H1000. Some primers went in a little easy to seat. I think they'll make 5 firings at least, but they are a little different from the one that I ran through 10 cycles. I also notice those cases that were easy to seat did have some ejector slot marks (M5 Mausingfield, just have a small rectangle cutout, not the usual circle swipe of a plunger style). I should not be experiencing high pressures with that load, because I worked all the way up to 62.0 before with no issues.

So I've thoroughly cleaned the bore with a bronze brush and I'm going to monitor it to see if it's carbon build up. I would like to find someone with a bore scope to check it out, also. H1000 is a sooty bastard and I would believe it if carbon buildup was causing problems.
Click to expand...

That's good to hear about the 2nd batch. Hopefully that will turn out not to be an anomaly. So are you saying the 3rd load cases are from the first batch?
 
JGB02 said:
Take a deep breath buddy, I'm only trying to help. You post that you have a 308 Savage gun and then talk big talk about shooting 2000+ yds away w/ flatlines but are not in the mood for spending on custom hardware. The longest I've gone to is 1290 yards, and I've needed to invest quite a bit in a optics, custom chamberings, etc. to get there. Most ELR rigs are purpose built. Mine, after optic, reloading gear and all bells and whistles is >$6K and I sourced all parts myself, and that doesn't even include things like steel, range finder, spotter, etc. If you know what you're doing, have at it and best of luck.

The reason I pitched the other calibers is LRI ditched the 6.5 SAUM after learning that many customers struggled with the reloading process. It's a pain in the butt that they had not accounted for when they bought it. Tikka rifles come standard in a long action, and I presume it's not too big of a deal to get a magnum bolt face for something more traditional. 6.5 SAUM would not ever be my first choice, but if you know what you're doing and are all set then go with it. Personally, I would shop for something more purpose built if ERL is what you want, as those rigs perform best when purpose built. A 300 WM w/ a 230 hybrid does pretty well. If you want a SAUM, I figure might as well go straight stick for a 7 SAUM as 7mm has way better BC bullets. It doesn't really matter what you do so long as you're happy with what you get.
Click to expand...

I'm not upset, buddy. All i did was reply to you calling me "schizo" and saying i'm an idiot for thinking i can shoot far without tons of money. If you feel the need to spend over $6k to get to 1290 yards, then good for you. put that money in the economy. but it's not necessary.
 
Everything I have is from the 2nd batch. 1 case lasted 10 and was ready for a couple more. Some of these I'll be surprised if they make more than 5 loadings (10-15% of them). Most of them seem to be on track for 10+
 
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Cool. I haven't had the chance to take the Minox pill yet. Like that glass?
 
I'm running redding, GAP usually stocks them and Hornady as well
 
manscout said:
I'm not upset, buddy. All i did was reply to you calling me "schizo" and saying i'm an idiot for thinking i can shoot far without tons of money. If you feel the need to spend over $6k to get to 1290 yards, then good for you. put that money in the economy. but it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

Match custom rifle w/ accessories for ELR setup w/ a first rate smith, optic, and all you need to reload a 6.5 SAUM for under $6K ... pretty sweet indeed, and a $3K optic nonetheless. That optic must have looked rather strange on your 308 Savage. Hope the SAUM goes well for you. It wouldn't be my first choice ... pain in the ass to reload and you're gonna need something like the hubble or a wamadyne target cam to spot impacts w/ that small 140 pill 2000+ yds away. Probably cheaper and easier just to shoot a 7mm or 300 mag and call it a day, but people on the hide just seem to love to oogle over 6.5 and convince themselves it's the best mousetrap for every situation. You obviously got your mind set, so I'm outta here.
 
All you need is a 7saum bushing die, bushing, and 6.5 expander. Maybe a seater plug but I can't remember. When I did it I ordered it all as pieces and it was much cheaper than the sets offered by others. Maybe that has changed though. I did go through cooper creek for the modified case for the hornady gauge.
 
big_matt_duq said:
All you need is a 7saum bushing die, bushing, and 6.5 expander. Maybe a seater plug but I can't remember. When I did it I ordered it all as pieces and it was much cheaper than the sets offered by others. Maybe that has changed though. I did go through cooper creek for the modified case for the hornady gauge.
Click to expand...

If your going to use 7saum redding type-s dies with a 6.5 expander, you'll have to get a 6.5x47 pin assembly. The 6.5 expander won't thread on the 7saum pin. The 7mm VLD seater works fine though.
 
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