Hunting & Fishing  New Hunting Bullets Available

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  • Mar 13, 2013
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    I understand how to find the lands. I was really asking when measuring COAL do you index off the ogive or tip of the bullet. I always measure off the ogive but on the Cayuga's it feels like its bottoming out in my gauge.

    You ALWAYS measure base to ogive. That's the consistent measurement....base to tip varies too much from bullet to bullet to be accurate
     

    Schw15

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  • Jul 21, 2019
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    I understand how to find the lands. I was really asking when measuring COAL do you index off the ogive or tip of the bullet. I always measure off the ogive but on the Cayuga's it feels like its bottoming out in my gauge.
    Oh i misunderstood. He recommends not measuring with ogive just oal
     

    Schw15

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  • Jul 21, 2019
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    I'm not sure right now. I'm working on knocking out the rest of the backlog from the Black Friday sale on barrels and other parts. We made thousands of the other bullets so that those are in stock but the 7mm match bullets aren't something that sold much of as I think people were turned off by what they considered "too light". I want to setup and run 151's at the same time that I run off some 8tw bullets for the heavier, faster twist guns. I'm at the shop right now with 3 spindles going overnight...
    Any news on any more 7mm target bullets?
     
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    bohem

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    You ALWAYS measure base to ogive. That's the consistent measurement....base to tip varies too much from bullet to bullet to be accurate
    This is correct for swaged bullets however this is generally not true with machined projectiles. The base to tip dimension consistency on my bullets as well as many other solids, is less than a thousandth variance. I can say with mine that it's under half a thou.

    This is also a problem for bore-rider designs because ogive measurement comparators are typically about 1-2 thousandths under the size of the bullet max diameter. Bore riders drop through them to the sealing surface location, which doesn't allow an appropriate measurement on something with a pilot band like my bullets have. The ogive comparator drops clear into the sealing surface, past the pilot band and that won't give an appropriate number to work from because the pilot band touches the throat first.

    Any news on any more 7mm target bullets?
    Working on programming the 8tw 161-ish right now.

    1617559449527.png


    The heavy 6.5mm 7tw bullet is being tested now, I've got some initial numbers on it and I'm pretty excited. I need to make sure it's stable and accurate at all distances. So far I've only tested it to 700yd.

    For those chuckling at the twist rate: I would have laughed a few years ago to however now I have 7tw barrels in stock, about 47 of them on last count, and folks shooting the heavy 6.5's from other companies are going 7.5, 7.25, and now even to 7's in 6.5mm chamberings.
     
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    Schw15

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  • Jul 21, 2019
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    This is correct for swaged bullets however this is generally not true with machined projectiles. The base to tip dimension consistency on my bullets as well as many other solids, is less than a thousandth variance. I can say with mine that it's under half a thou.

    This is also a problem for bore-rider designs because ogive measurement comparators are typically about 1-2 thousandths under the size of the bullet max diameter. Bore riders drop through them to the sealing surface location, which doesn't allow an appropriate measurement on something with a pilot band like my bullets have. The ogive comparator drops clear into the sealing surface, past the pilot band and that won't give an appropriate number to work from because the pilot band touches the throat first.


    Working on programming the 8tw 161-ish right now.

    View attachment 7597393


    The heavy 6.5mm 7tw bullet is being tested now, I've got some initial numbers on it and I'm pretty excited. I need to make sure it's stable and accurate at all distances. So far I've only tested it to 700yd.

    For those chuckling at the twist rate: I would have laughed a few years ago to however now I have 7tw barrels in stock, about 47 of them on last count, and folks shooting the heavy 6.5's from other companies are going 7.5, 7.25, and now even to 7's in 6.5mm chamberings.
    Excited to see the new bullets
     
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    Aftermath

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    I understand how to find the lands. I was really asking when measuring COAL do you index off the ogive or tip of the bullet. I always measure off the ogive but on the Cayuga's it feels like its bottoming out in my gauge.
    COAL is a measurement used to determine if a cartridge will fit inside of the magazine. Cartridge Base to Ogive is used to measure the distance the bullet will travel before encountering the lands of the rifle bore. MANY times you are limited by COAL and are unable to get even close to the lands.
     

    bohem

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    COAL is a measurement used to determine if a cartridge will fit inside of the magazine. Cartridge Base to Ogive is used to measure the distance the bullet will travel before encountering the lands of the rifle bore. MANY times you are limited by COAL and are unable to get even close to the lands.
    Here's a copy of what I said above regarding this topic:



    This is correct for swaged bullets however this is generally not true with machined projectiles. The base to tip dimension consistency on my bullets as well as many other solids, is less than a thousandth variance. I can say with mine that it's under half a thou.

    This is also a problem for bore-rider designs because ogive measurement comparators are typically about 1-2 thousandths under the size of the bullet max diameter. Bore riders drop through them to the sealing surface location, which doesn't allow an appropriate measurement on something with a pilot band like my bullets have. The ogive comparator drops clear into the sealing surface, past the pilot band and that won't give an appropriate number to work from because the pilot band touches the throat first.
     
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    Painless300

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    Here's a copy of what I said above regarding this topic:



    This is correct for swaged bullets however this is generally not true with machined projectiles. The base to tip dimension consistency on my bullets as well as many other solids, is less than a thousandth variance. I can say with mine that it's under half a thou.

    This is also a problem for bore-rider designs because ogive measurement comparators are typically about 1-2 thousandths under the size of the bullet max diameter. Bore riders drop through them to the sealing surface location, which doesn't allow an appropriate measurement on something with a pilot band like my bullets have. The ogive comparator drops clear into the sealing surface, past the pilot band and that won't give an appropriate number to work from because the pilot band touches the throat first.
    This is exactly the point I was trying to make.
    Thanks for clarifying.
     

    Aftermath

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    Here's a copy of what I said above regarding this topic:



    This is correct for swaged bullets however this is generally not true with machined projectiles. The base to tip dimension consistency on my bullets as well as many other solids, is less than a thousandth variance. I can say with mine that it's under half a thou.

    This is also a problem for bore-rider designs because ogive measurement comparators are typically about 1-2 thousandths under the size of the bullet max diameter. Bore riders drop through them to the sealing surface location, which doesn't allow an appropriate measurement on something with a pilot band like my bullets have. The ogive comparator drops clear into the sealing surface, past the pilot band and that won't give an appropriate number to work from because the pilot band touches the throat first.
    Help me understand...
    For sake of argument, let's say your magazine will hold a bullet/casing combo no more than 3" long. This same bullet/casing combo sitting against the bolt face leaves a full .25" away from the lands and too far away from the lands for good accuracy.
    Now what?
     

    bohem

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    Help me understand...
    For sake of argument, let's say your magazine will hold a bullet/casing combo no more than 3" long. This same bullet/casing combo sitting against the bolt face leaves a full .25" away from the lands and too far away from the lands for good accuracy.
    Now what?

    I don't understand how this pertains to measuring off the ogive as opposed to measuring base to tip with solids.

    Bore rider designs, as a rule, don't work with the ogive comparators that have been made for a given jacketed bullet size.
    If you pin gauge the inside of a 6.5mm ogive comparator they typically fall between 0.2630-0.2635
    If the front end of the bore rider is 0.256 and the pilot band is 0.260, you're not going to touch anything with a comparator until you're up on the full diameter area.

    However, since the throat angle comes down from 0.264 groove size to 0.256 bore size then the bullet will actually touch the lands and work just fine.

    But your comparator won't give you good readings.

    Which is why I said that most comparators are going to be worthless and you should measure based on COAL. Since the bullets are machined anyway then the COAL is just as reliable as the comparator numbers.

    And, I can state with full confidence from having made about 500k of them so far:

    The bullet OAL on our stuff falls within 1/2 thousandth (normally it's +/-0.0003), which is tighter than calipers can consistently and repeatedly measure.


    If for some reason you must measure with a comparator then you're going to need to drop down to the next smaller size. For example, measuring 6.5mm bullets that fit in a 0.256 bore you will need to go to at least a 25 caliber, if not a 6mm, comparator.

    If you go to the smaller size you'll get something that rides on the ogive. It will give you a reliable, consistent measurement.
    You don't NEED a comparator that measures just in front of the bearing surface on a jacketed bullet either. You need something that measures consistently on a reference surface that's reliable, which is why jacketed bullets use ogive comparators instead of base to tip. The tips aren't consistent and you get variation.

    You can get reliable loading information with a 6mm comparator on a 6.5mm bullet for machined or swaged type, you just won't be able to tell the guys on facebook your comparator measurement without them scratching their head. It's going to be too long.

    On that note, when people offer BTO measurements without any qualification of the comparator size I usually just shake my head knowing that comparators from different brands are different sizes and even from the same brand they vary enough that matching numbers still isn't going to guarantee much more than +/- 0.010" consistency between the two sets of loaded ammo.
     
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    Aftermath

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    May 14, 2013
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    I don't understand how this pertains to measuring off the ogive as opposed to measuring base to tip with solids.

    Bore rider designs, as a rule, don't work with the ogive comparators that have been made for a given jacketed bullet size.
    If you pin gauge the inside of a 6.5mm ogive comparator they typically fall between 0.2630-0.2635
    If the front end of the bore rider is 0.256 and the pilot band is 0.260, you're not going to touch anything with a comparator until you're up on the full diameter area.

    However, since the throat angle comes down from 0.264 groove size to 0.256 bore size then the bullet will actually touch the lands and work just fine.

    But your comparator won't give you good readings.

    Which is why I said that most comparators are going to be worthless and you should measure based on COAL. Since the bullets are machined anyway then the COAL is just as reliable as the comparator numbers.

    And, I can state with full confidence from having made about 500k of them so far:

    The bullet OAL on our stuff falls within 1/2 thousandth (normally it's +/-0.0003), which is tighter than calipers can consistently and repeatedly measure.


    If for some reason you must measure with a comparator then you're going to need to drop down to the next smaller size. For example, measuring 6.5mm bullets that fit in a 0.256 bore you will need to go to at least a 25 caliber, if not a 6mm, comparator.

    If you go to the smaller size you'll get something that rides on the ogive. It will give you a reliable, consistent measurement.
    You don't NEED a comparator that measures just in front of the bearing surface on a jacketed bullet either. You need something that measures consistently on a reference surface that's reliable, which is why jacketed bullets use ogive comparators instead of base to tip. The tips aren't consistent and you get variation.

    You can get reliable loading information with a 6mm comparator on a 6.5mm bullet for machined or swaged type, you just won't be able to tell the guys on facebook your comparator measurement without them scratching their head. It's going to be too long.

    On that note, when people offer BTO measurements without any qualification of the comparator size I usually just shake my head knowing that comparators from different brands are different sizes and even from the same brand they vary enough that matching numbers still isn't going to guarantee much more than +/- 0.010" consistency between the two sets of loaded ammo.
    How would you determine how far away the bullet is from the lands? Do you just load and shoot a bunch of different length bullets? I mean, that is sort of what I do anyway but I have a real good idea how far from the lands I am for any seating depth of a cartridge/bullet combo.
     

    Graywolf.260

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    How would you determine how far away the bullet is from the lands? Do you just load and shoot a bunch of different length bullets? I mean, that is sort of what I do anyway but I have a real good idea how far from the lands I am for any seating depth of a cartridge/bullet combo.
    it's easy to measure COAL to lands, use a hornady modified case gauge https://www.hornady.com/modified-cases#!/
     

    Aftermath

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    it's easy to measure COAL to lands, use a hornady modified case gauge https://www.hornady.com/modified-cases#!/
    But, with these "new" bullets, the monolithics, by the time the bullet is touching the lands, it has been pushed out of the case completely, or nearly so, right? The portion that is to full caliber diameter is far back on the bullet. I am imagining something like a full inch of jump for some of these projectiles.
     

    Schw15

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  • Jul 21, 2019
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    But, with these "new" bullets, the monolithics, by the time the bullet is touching the lands, it has been pushed out of the case completely, or nearly so, right? The portion that is to full caliber diameter is far back on the bullet. I am imagining something like a full inch of jump for some of these projectiles.
    If you have alot of freebore yes they will stick way out there with nothing in neck. But if no freebore they are fine and normal. Have to watch but .150 jump isnt bad with these bullets thats what i have to do with the 170 in 7 max that i played with
     

    Graywolf.260

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    The COAL to lands for the 6.5 122 Cayuga is about 3.3" with my TRG .260, so it's about 0.34" jump, loading to near magazine length. They shoot very well.
     

    Aftermath

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    The COAL to lands for the 6.5 122 Cayuga is about 3.3" with my TRG .260, so it's about 0.34" jump, loading to near magazine length. They shoot very well.
    What is the distance from the bearing surface (or whatever you call it), where the bullet becomes full caliber diameter, to where the bore becomes caliber diameter?
     

    Graywolf.260

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    What is the distance from the bearing surface (or whatever you call it), where the bullet becomes full caliber diameter, to where the bore becomes caliber diameter?
    If I understand your question, your'e asking what is the bullet jump and based on the Hornady OAL gauge measurement, its 0.34". I'm seating the 122 g Cayuga to 2.96" COAL.
     
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    Aftermath

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    May 14, 2013
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    If I understand your question, your'e asking what is the bullet jump and based on the Hornady OAL gauge measurement, its 0.34". I'm seating the 122 g Cayuga to 2.96" COAL.
    I assume you are limited to that COAL due to the magazine? Out of curiosity, have you tried single feed to try to get closer? If you were say something like 0.005" off the lands, how far into the case would the bullet be seated?
    With most of my rigs, there is an accuracy node or 2 or 3 based on bullet jump/jam as well accuracy nodes related to velocity.
    I'm asking these maybe dumb questions because I am curious. I have considered trying some mono's but don't want to waste a bunch of supplies right now unless I'm pretty sure I'm going to like them. Actually, no matter what, I will likely wait until the supply and demand thing returns to a more normal state.