Not to get away from all of this butt stuff - which some of you seem to be enjoying a little too much. But I did take my other LaRue out to the range today. Pretty new 12.5" upper. 1x8 scope. Shooting IMI 77 gr. Razorcore ammo I was pretty consistently getting 1.25" groups. Conditions were again pretty crappy - winds gusting between 10-20 mph. Scope was not ideal for precision shooting, and I'm probably responsible for .25-.3. So figure that the upper is probably capable of 1 MOA, maybe better with different ammo.
- Thread starter NavyshooterM40
- Start date
Sounds like a decent upper, especially for the price.
Put it in BigJakes hands - as a self-proclaimed prophecy, he could easy get that upper to shoot well under 0.25 MOA with factory ammo, regardless of LaRue’s terrible engineering and products. ;-)
Putting all Fuckery aside you're not to far off with that comment, you ask around you'll find out I do that very thing for a lot of people all voluntarily. And I don't need a atmospheric controlled tunnel either...
The contempt is for people who are too ignorant to know the difference between a Lothar Walther barrel and a Larue barrel.
...
You're 99% correct on the above statement but in regards to that specific barrel that he's mentioning its mine, and it does shout 1/2 MOA with me behind it shooting 168FGMM. I have zero issues giving credit where credit is due.
If you wouldn't mind could you go into greater detail in regards to your above comment? About knowing the difference between the two barrels.
When I first read his post it, appeared that he was referring to the barrels that are the subject of this thread. If that's not the case, then I retract my statement.
Pretty sure he’s talking about the new barrels. I think the thing that most ppl that are purchasing have failed to notice is that when ML has shot/posted several 3 shot groups with the same upper, the POI has shifted among the groups a bit. Once you start doing 5 shot groups, you’d likely see this to a greater extent.
I do have a LT 6.5creed UU that shoots very well, but once it gets to a certain temp, it’s been known to open up considerably.
And there’s probably a good reason why the LW barrels were sold at 450$+ from LT vs the house barrels being 225$, and it’s not likely due to LT revolutionizing how to make barrels cheaper.
I do have a LT 6.5creed UU that shoots very well, but once it gets to a certain temp, it’s been known to open up considerably.
And there’s probably a good reason why the LW barrels were sold at 450$+ from LT vs the house barrels being 225$, and it’s not likely due to LT revolutionizing how to make barrels cheaper.
Piss-ant, cherry-picked, statistically insignificant 3-shot groups.
Here's some 10-shot groups fired from my Lothar Walther barreled AR-15 at a distance of 100 yards.
Oh, and here's a 0.198 MOA group fired from my AR-15 with a larue predatar barel.
...
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I don't reload and no nothing about that art.
When I want to get the best performance out of my 16" OBR I used Applied Ballistics ammunition, sold thru LT.
In my experience is almost always single digit variation in muzzle velocity using my MagnetoSpeed V3.
When Bryn Litz referenced his use of the LT OBR in his Long Range Shooting text, no mention of the ammunition used (but is in the AB information regarding the ammunition), and I believe he was a principal in Applied Ballistics Ammunition venture.
Would you consider the Applied Ballistics "factory" ammo, or some hybrid of specialty "reloaded" ammunition?
Thanks.
When I want to get the best performance out of my 16" OBR I used Applied Ballistics ammunition, sold thru LT.
In my experience is almost always single digit variation in muzzle velocity using my MagnetoSpeed V3.
When Bryn Litz referenced his use of the LT OBR in his Long Range Shooting text, no mention of the ammunition used (but is in the AB information regarding the ammunition), and I believe he was a principal in Applied Ballistics Ammunition venture.
Would you consider the Applied Ballistics "factory" ammo, or some hybrid of specialty "reloaded" ammunition?
Thanks.
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Just curious..
Which schools did they send you to? What was your rate and warfare designators? What was your title when you got out?
Apologies in advance if you’re legit.
I was sent to Quantico for small arms and armory training.
MA, (Master at Arms)
I retired as Petty Officer
And I'm not sure what you're asking about my warfare designators?? Are you asking about the surface warfare pins/ qualifications?
I think warfare designators are pretty straight forward but sure, which pin(s) did you earn?
Guessing you retired as an E10, E11?
Again, apologies in advance if you’re legit.
Guessing you retired as an E10, E11?
Again, apologies in advance if you’re legit.
You're a fucking idiot...lol
Maybe, but my two buddy’s in the Navy think you’re totally full of shit.
Oh yeah... Are they the ones who told you about all those E-11's..lol
It’s like you took the time to tell us all what a bad ass you are, but then you got frustrated and when I asked some simple questions. (And I’m perfectly aware Petty Officer is E4-E9.)
Dude just stop, all you're doing is digging a deeper hole with every dumbass reply that you're clearly getting by reading the internet. Petty Officer is E4 - E6, you call a Chief, Senior Chief or Master chief a Petty Officer You're going to get punched in the fucking mouth!!!
The only people who would ever say something as ignorant as you just did about knowing Petty Officer's are E4-E9 is clearly just Googling bullshit you know absolutely nothing about or your "Friends"...lol
You're a pathetic Troll and you need to go back to AR15.com!! with the rest of the LaRue fan boys.
Ok man… like I said, apologies if you’re legit. Not sure about your obsession with AR15.com or LaRue…
Here’s the response from one of my Navy friends. Take it for what it’s worth.
Personally, I have never known someone to say they retired a “petty officer” I feel like most guys want to incorporate their rank into their retirement Like most people. Petty officer stretches from E4 to E9. Third class petty officer, second class petty officer, first class petty officer (E1-E6), chief, senior chief, master chief (E7-E9).
for Example, I personally got out as an E5 (me rank), Personnel Specialist 2nd Class (Seabee Combat Warfare). My day today title would have been PS2. And my written title would be PS2 (SCW). For Expl, I know A Gunners Mate Chief (E7), His title is GMC Or gunners meet chief, But everyone just calls/ her him chief at that point. (Chief is a big deal).
MAs Are essentially the cops of any given command, they have been OC sprayed multiple times (i’ve been once) And they are trained very well in interviewing skills (my experience) Much like that of a police officer. Because they are like cops, they typically have very specific and technical jargon and answers, hence they really should not be thrown by simple questions like this guy.
Look dude, PS2 is correct on most of what he said but he didn't explain it to you very well. When you initially asked me about my service I honestly answered exactly what you asked me, go back and read it again
When I served a "TITLE" would be a (Petty Officer, or a Chief). If you would have asked me what my Rate and Rank was I would have told you I was a MA1, I never got my ESWS pin. SeaBee's have their own Rate specific warfare pins and MA's don't nor do we spend much time on ships unless you're a Chief Master at Arms or running a Brig and the MA sea-shore rotation is 4 years overseas and 4 years stateside so not a lot of opportunities for pins and when I was in most MA's who had their pins were people who CrossRated over from BM's or GM's and had the Sea Duty time.
As soon as I graduated from Great Lakes they sent me to Seaman ATD School then stuck my ass in an amphib while I waiting for my A School to open up. Lucky for me I checked in a week before my ship went on Westpac so I got a deployment in and experienced some special traditions in the Navy like crossing the equator twice and becoming a Golden Shellback as well as Beatin Guts all over Australia from Perth to Cairns. After that I went to my A school in Lackland, became a MA and basically rotated from one base to another getting sent to C schools in between like Small Arms and Armory school in Quantico because MA's have to run their own Armory, sometimes we get GMs sent to us TAD but not very often.
Now I honestly don't know much about what your friend did, sounds like he was a guidance counselor/detailer for the SeaBee's, and when I was in they were called DK's or PN's. Judging by his very by the book Bupers way of explaining what MA's do that would be my guess.
MA's do a lot more than just your basic law enforcement duties, we work anything from K-9, Corrections, investigations, Anti-terrorism Force protection, protective services ..it honestly all depends on what NEC's you can pick up.
When I served a "TITLE" would be a (Petty Officer, or a Chief). If you would have asked me what my Rate and Rank was I would have told you I was a MA1, I never got my ESWS pin. SeaBee's have their own Rate specific warfare pins and MA's don't nor do we spend much time on ships unless you're a Chief Master at Arms or running a Brig and the MA sea-shore rotation is 4 years overseas and 4 years stateside so not a lot of opportunities for pins and when I was in most MA's who had their pins were people who CrossRated over from BM's or GM's and had the Sea Duty time.
As soon as I graduated from Great Lakes they sent me to Seaman ATD School then stuck my ass in an amphib while I waiting for my A School to open up. Lucky for me I checked in a week before my ship went on Westpac so I got a deployment in and experienced some special traditions in the Navy like crossing the equator twice and becoming a Golden Shellback as well as Beatin Guts all over Australia from Perth to Cairns. After that I went to my A school in Lackland, became a MA and basically rotated from one base to another getting sent to C schools in between like Small Arms and Armory school in Quantico because MA's have to run their own Armory, sometimes we get GMs sent to us TAD but not very often.
Now I honestly don't know much about what your friend did, sounds like he was a guidance counselor/detailer for the SeaBee's, and when I was in they were called DK's or PN's. Judging by his very by the book Bupers way of explaining what MA's do that would be my guess.
MA's do a lot more than just your basic law enforcement duties, we work anything from K-9, Corrections, investigations, Anti-terrorism Force protection, protective services ..it honestly all depends on what NEC's you can pick up.
Real question is what if you get your dick sucked by "Miss" Nevada? If you know "it" was a guy does that make you gay even though "it" was trying to be a girl? If you didn't know "it" was a guy and blew your baby gravy everywhere does that make it less gay than if you knew?
Good God... this thread is seriously out of whack. Everyone's personal opinions of others ... is just a pissing match.
I have complete faith in Molon's experiences with everything AR. His posts have always been to the point.
And he posts just the facts as he experiences them. That alone proves he is GTG.
I have faith in bigjake83's shooting abilities and skill. bigjake83 is opinionated, good for him, I am opinionated as well.
But, I don't feel the need to call him out for my own satisfaction. His word is good enough for me.
bigjake83 has proven his abilities time and again on this forum.
Not to mention, both those Men spend a lot of time posting their experiences for our benefit.
IMHO, everyone can take it or leave it as far as their experiences go... but turning a thread into a pissing match is flat out ridiculous.
Rant over.
Getting back to the original threads subject...
FWIW... I ordered one. I feel I am capable of getting qualified results from an AR, big or small.
I want to see if a OEM 16" LaRue upper , assembled by LaRue... with his parts, truly lives up to its "claim's to fame".
IMHO, this upper is a great way to see if LaRue's products can achieve his claims.
I realize it will be an example of "one".... so everyone can take the results as they see fit.
I have no special training in regards to shooting or assembling AR's... I am self taught on all shooting subjects. I will get that out of the way right now.
On a good day I can shoot some danged good groups. Having many AR's / barrels out shoot my capabilities. ( Danged flyer ! )
I am not perfect. I do know when I am in the "zone" at the bench and when I am not.
And I will post the results of my experiences here.. good or bad.
With various factory loads.
If anyone has specific factory ammo they would like to see used.. I probably have some to test.
Ammo Suggestions are appreciated... from 85gr Barnes- 50gr Fed TV... any suggested that I have on hand and a factory load.
I fully, 100% agree with Molon that 10rd groups show the true nature of a barrels potential.
I fire rapid'ish groups, allowing no meaningful time for barrel cool down. Or IMHO, how a AR is expected to probably be used.
I will not clean between every ammo fired... I will allow 5 throw away shots fired between ammo types used. ( I believe barrels need a seasoning to the next ammo used ... just my beliefs from firing a ton of different factory loads )
I will use it on a snug fitting lower. Just like all my preferred AR's used for precision ammo testing.
I will scope it, my older eyes don't like open sights anymore. I will give the LaRue upper every advantage to prove itself qualified.
Suggestions concerning scope powers is also appreciated... I have 1-8x - 5-25x readily available.
Range will be 100yds.
I will shoot it off my Adj. Benchrest on the front and a wedge bag on the back.
Any other suggestions will be appreciated as well... If I have forgotten anything.
Now , the waiting game from LaRue, for a delivery date,. I ordered one right around the day it was announced. I will not provide a specific date, so as to eliminate any skewed products. ( IE , somehow I got a ringer )
I'll keep everyone posted as to a in transit time frame.
I am looking forward to the results. Even if just to satisfy my own curiosity.
I have complete faith in Molon's experiences with everything AR. His posts have always been to the point.
And he posts just the facts as he experiences them. That alone proves he is GTG.
I have faith in bigjake83's shooting abilities and skill. bigjake83 is opinionated, good for him, I am opinionated as well.
But, I don't feel the need to call him out for my own satisfaction. His word is good enough for me.
bigjake83 has proven his abilities time and again on this forum.
Not to mention, both those Men spend a lot of time posting their experiences for our benefit.
IMHO, everyone can take it or leave it as far as their experiences go... but turning a thread into a pissing match is flat out ridiculous.
Rant over.
Getting back to the original threads subject...
FWIW... I ordered one. I feel I am capable of getting qualified results from an AR, big or small.
I want to see if a OEM 16" LaRue upper , assembled by LaRue... with his parts, truly lives up to its "claim's to fame".
IMHO, this upper is a great way to see if LaRue's products can achieve his claims.
I realize it will be an example of "one".... so everyone can take the results as they see fit.
I have no special training in regards to shooting or assembling AR's... I am self taught on all shooting subjects. I will get that out of the way right now.
On a good day I can shoot some danged good groups. Having many AR's / barrels out shoot my capabilities. ( Danged flyer ! )
I am not perfect. I do know when I am in the "zone" at the bench and when I am not.
And I will post the results of my experiences here.. good or bad.
With various factory loads.
If anyone has specific factory ammo they would like to see used.. I probably have some to test.
Ammo Suggestions are appreciated... from 85gr Barnes- 50gr Fed TV... any suggested that I have on hand and a factory load.
I fully, 100% agree with Molon that 10rd groups show the true nature of a barrels potential.
I fire rapid'ish groups, allowing no meaningful time for barrel cool down. Or IMHO, how a AR is expected to probably be used.
I will not clean between every ammo fired... I will allow 5 throw away shots fired between ammo types used. ( I believe barrels need a seasoning to the next ammo used ... just my beliefs from firing a ton of different factory loads )
I will use it on a snug fitting lower. Just like all my preferred AR's used for precision ammo testing.
I will scope it, my older eyes don't like open sights anymore. I will give the LaRue upper every advantage to prove itself qualified.
Suggestions concerning scope powers is also appreciated... I have 1-8x - 5-25x readily available.
Range will be 100yds.
I will shoot it off my Adj. Benchrest on the front and a wedge bag on the back.
Any other suggestions will be appreciated as well... If I have forgotten anything.
Now , the waiting game from LaRue, for a delivery date,. I ordered one right around the day it was announced. I will not provide a specific date, so as to eliminate any skewed products. ( IE , somehow I got a ringer )
I'll keep everyone posted as to a in transit time frame.
I am looking forward to the results. Even if just to satisfy my own curiosity.
LOL
This is all insane. LaRue manufactures excellent guns at a value that’s difficult to beat out of the box.
Whether your anecdotal experiences support or conflict with LaRues success is irrelevant.
Quite simply, BigJake categorizes LaRue, forums, and hobbyists into categories so he can make things more simple.
AR15.com bad.
LaRue bad.
BigJake good.
All silliness aside, Happy 4th - and thank you for your service everyone - even you BigJake!
This is all insane. LaRue manufactures excellent guns at a value that’s difficult to beat out of the box.
Whether your anecdotal experiences support or conflict with LaRues success is irrelevant.
Quite simply, BigJake categorizes LaRue, forums, and hobbyists into categories so he can make things more simple.
AR15.com bad.
LaRue bad.
BigJake good.
All silliness aside, Happy 4th - and thank you for your service everyone - even you BigJake!
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The fewer the number of shots, theoretically the better or easier it is to get it to group….
I.e, it’s easier to get 3 shots close together than it is to get 5, 10 or more.
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Here's a cherry-picked, statistically insignificant 3-shot group fired from an AR-15 with a Larue predatar barrel at 100 yards. The group has an extreme spread of 0.198 MOA.
Using that same barrel, shooting under the same conditions, but this time using statistically significant group sizes, six 10-shot groups fired in a row had an average extreme spread of 1.38" (1.32 MOA). Those six 10-shot groups were over-layed to form a 60-shot composite group. The 60-shot composite group had a mean radius of 0.41".
....
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Bro, that larue is only 200 more than PSA shit on sale..that’s a great buy for the larue
Huh? Psa is 400, this is 700 or 75% more and you think that is great deal for moa? Larue is same as DD on sale today. Bad deal the larue is especially considering the chamber concerns
Does the DD come with a BCG and CH?
You can reload fluted chambers. I did it all the time with my PTR91. They are stupidly unnecessary in an AR though.
You can pick up a DD MK18 upper from Brownells for $850 and free shipping (with discount code). Does not come with FH/Muzzle device, bolt carrier or charging handle. However, PSA will sell you a Tool Craft bolt carrier for $99. DD has charging handle on sale. And, if your like me, you probably have at least one spare bolt and charging handle anyway.
Of course, these two uppers are entirely different animals. LaRue will probably be more accurate. But DD should be pretty bullet proof and barrel will last forever. Plus, don't really need/expect a 10.5" barrel to shoot sub MOA or to take it out to 400 yards. But for 100 yards and in it's tough to beat.
Toss out the cherry picked Instagram groups. How do you feel this actual performance compares to offerings like it for comparable cost?Here's a cherry-picked, statistically insignificant 3-shot group fired from an AR-15 with a Larue predatar barrel at 100 yards. The group is 0.198 MOA.
Using that same barrel, shooting under the same conditions, but this time using statistically significant group sizes, six 10-shot groups fired in a row had an average extreme spread of 1.38" (1.32 MOA). Those six 10-shot groups were over-layed to form a 60-shot composite group. The 60-shot composite group had a mean radius of 0.41".
....
Yeah why not I'll pm you my address. I need to get my reloading stuff set up again anyways.
I wouldn’t say that..I’m somewhat of a Rolex rifleman and have many excellent rifles..but I have 2 psa ar10 gen 2 (308, and 6.5 creedmoor) and a gen 3(308, had the 6.5 but traded it for more current ammo options) they outshoot many of my custom built gas guns, and the gen 3 is far reliable than most.
is it a JP or GAP? No, does it shoot tiny groups and take the punishment that I inflict on it? Hell yeah
My chrome-lined, NATO chambered Noveske barrels shoot better than the predatar barrel that I tested (see those results below).
The stealth barrel that I tested shoots on par with my chrome-lined, NATO chambered Colt 6721 HBARs (the 16" stealth barrel weighs more than the 16" Colt HBAR).
A 10-shot group fired from the stealth barreled AR-15 at a distance of 100 yards had an extreme spread of 0.814".
Here's the group from that stealth barrel that the Internet Commando would have posted. The cherry-picked, statistically insignificant 3-shot group at 100 yards has an extreme spread of 0.196 MOA.
Here's a cherry-picked, statistically insignificant 3-shot group fired from an AR-15 with a Larue predatar barrel at 100 yards. The group has an extreme spread 0.198 MOA.
Using that same barrel, shooting under the same conditions, but this time using statistically significant group sizes, six 10-shot groups fired in a row had an average extreme spread of 1.38" (1.32 MOA). Those six 10-shot groups were over-layed to form a 60-shot composite group. The 60-shot composite group had a mean radius of 0.41".
....
Noveske 16” N4 Barrel Accuracy Evaluation
For this evaluation, I used one of my standard match-grade hand-loads topped with Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings. When fired from my Krieger barreled AR-15s, this load has produced ½ MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards.
Three, 10-shot groups were fired in a row from the Noveske 16” N4 Light barrel from a distance of 100 yards with the resulting extreme spreads:
1.29”
1.18”
1.31”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.26”. The three, 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius of the 30-shot composite group was 0.37”.
After firing the above three groups, I fired an additional five, 10-shot groups in a row for a total of eight, 10-shot groups fired in a row. The average extreme spread for all eight of the 10-shot groups was 1.24”. I over-layed all eight of the 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form an 80-shot composite group. The mean radius for the 80-shot composite group was 0.39”.
....
Noveske 14.5” CHF Barrel Accuracy
The 14.5” N4 barrel was tested in the same manner as described above. Three 10-shot groups fired from 100 yards using match grade hand-loads had extreme spreads of:
1.029”
1.360”
1.275”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.22”. As above, I over-layed the three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for that composite group was 0.37”.
...
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Seems to me like it’s about on par performance per dollar, the risk comes with a sketchy company with shitty service and the bonus is one of the best handguard/upper lockup/floating designs on the market?
It’s a 225 dollar barrel, take away the magic dust and it appears to shoot like a .... 225 dollar barrel.
Let me know if that’s off, I have no investment in LT being great, I have a trigger that is very good, and a grip that sucks ass.
It’s a 225 dollar barrel, take away the magic dust and it appears to shoot like a .... 225 dollar barrel.
Let me know if that’s off, I have no investment in LT being great, I have a trigger that is very good, and a grip that sucks ass.
That predatar group is better than I expected given it's a 245$ skinny barrel.
The predatar barrel is not a "skinny" barrel. For decades the de facto standard for what constitutes a light-weight 16” AR-15 barrel has been the “pencil” barrel found on the Colt 6520/6720. That barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 6 ounces. The 16" predatar barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 10.5 ounces, making it more than a quarter of a pound heavier than an actual light-weight barrel. The gas block and set screws add an additional 2.6 ounces.
Colt 6520/6720
predatar
The predatar barrel is over-gassed for a 16” barrel with a mid-length gas system. The gas port has a gauged diameter of 0.082”.
You're pretty much hitting the nail right on the head, because even I can't deny that this $700 upper kit is a pretty respectable deal.
And the best part is if it doesn't perform you can sell the barrel off to the dickheads on AR15.com and slide in a Bartlein and Krieger and have yourself a lead slinging laser beam.
Fair enough......
Here's the last of my LaRue products, All of them have been gutted and had better components installed.
The .308 has a Bartlein barrel from Compass Lake.
The one in the middle is a 6.5 Grendel that has a barrel from Craddock Precision.
The shorter RECCE rifles have a .223 Krieger Barrel from CLE.
All of these rifles will shoot 5rd Sub 1/2 MOA group.
The .308 has a Bartlein barrel from Compass Lake.
The one in the middle is a 6.5 Grendel that has a barrel from Craddock Precision.
The shorter RECCE rifles have a .223 Krieger Barrel from CLE.
All of these rifles will shoot 5rd Sub 1/2 MOA group.
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How do you feel the larue system compares to something like Aeros M4e1 that also attaches the handguard directly to the receiver.
They're kinda Apples to Oranges.
Yes both Handguards attached directly to the upper receiver but that's where the similarities end.
LaRue utilizes a low profile barrel nut and then machines the inside of the handguard to a larger diameter so that it doesn't come in contact with the barrel nut making it a true free floating design.
AP, Seekins and JP all use similar design ideas, they all have more material and increased surface area in the front of their upper receivers, but they use a internal barrel nut design which technically the Barrel, Barrel Nut, Upper and handguard are all still connected but due to the increase material around the front of the receiver any strain put on to the handguard won't directly transfer to the barrel like a conventional upper and Handguard that directly puts all strain onto the barrel nut which will transfer into the barrel.
The M4E1 is like that also. The one they sell with their monolithic handgaurd.
What exactly is the fuss here? I thought LaRue’s goal was to bring accuracy to the masses for reasonable prices. Isn’t this new upper exactly that? @bigjake83 aren’t the barrels you’re using like $600 each? Meaning you’re spending nearly double the $699 price to squeeze another 1/4 - 1/2 MOA; I also think it’s safe to say you have waaay more expertise than ‘the masses’ at putting them together.
I just took delivery of mine so I’ll post my groups good or bad, though I don’t consider myself a great semi driver. Seems damn solid and mates with my LaRue lower with 0 slop. We’ll see...
I just took delivery of mine so I’ll post my groups good or bad, though I don’t consider myself a great semi driver. Seems damn solid and mates with my LaRue lower with 0 slop. We’ll see...
No I don't pay that much for Small frame barrels and after I sell the New OEM Take-off barrel I'm usually only out of pocket around $200-ish. The LaRue Small frame uppers and lower do fit nicely but they still have that .020 gap at the rear that bugs the shit out of me and my OCD. And to answer your question, Yes.. the extra cost is absolutely worth it to gain the 1/4-1/2 MOA. I've sold all my Precision Bolt Rifles, because I honestly have no need for them If my AR's are consistently averaging 1/2 to Sub 1/2 MOA.
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