Rifle Scopes  New MSR 2 Reticle from FinnAccuracy

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    [h=4]MSR2 KEY FEATURES[/h]
    - Proven MSR look and feel - with more features

    - Aiming usability starting from the lowest magnification and very close ranges. Heavy bar scaling offer close-range aiming reference

    - Clear traditional feel in midrange 10...15x magnifications.Details needed for finest precision available in 20x and above

    - Numbered bars and hashmarks for general observing down to very lowest magnifications: scale in both horizontal and vertical axis

    - Center cross area optimized to highest magnification powers - center cross hashmarks and dot offer precision without distraction

    - Modern FFP scope large variation of apparent reticle size exploited: a truly functional multipurpose reticle trough whole magnification range

    - Optimized functionality out to ultra-long shooting distances

    - Dimensions checked and optimized to each scope model magnification range

    MSR2_center_area_dimensions_1024x1024.png
    [h=4]MSR2 KEY FEATURES[/h]
    - Proven MSR look and feel - with more features

    - Aiming usability starting from the lowest magnification and very close ranges. Heavy bar scaling offer close-range aiming reference

    - Clear traditional feel in midrange 10...15x magnifications.Details needed for finest precision available in 20x and above

    - Numbered bars and hashmarks for general observing down to very lowest magnifications: scale in both horizontal and vertical axis

    - Center cross area optimized to highest magnification powers - center cross hashmarks and dot offer precision without distraction

    - Modern FFP scope large variation of apparent reticle size exploited: a truly functional multipurpose reticle trough whole magnification range

    - Optimized functionality out to ultra-long shooting distances

    - Dimensions checked and optimized to each scope model magnification range

     
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    Vargmat

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    It looks nice. But not nice enough for me to upgrade from the original MSR reticle, which I have been running since last spring.
     
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    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    Is the second cross hair at 10 mils for wind at a 1000y's?

    It can be. Or, for any situation where drop is adjusted to that point.
    Can also be any range where actual drop is 10mils or more from centre. It is most benefical in ELR where hold over is needed and turrets bottom.

    MSR2_brochure_page2_v2.0_2048x2048.jpg
     

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    Glassaholic

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    Interesting enhancements; however, I think it could have been much more useful if they put the little .2 mil hash ticks all the way across the horizontal stadia. Why only for the first mil, for those of us who hold wind and shoot long range we'll want more than one mil of .2 mil marks, can someone explain why they chose to put the .2 mil hash marks only within the first mil? I now shoot with mostly more efficient cartridges and bullets where a 5 mph wind will not push the bullet beyond 1 mil until out past 1000 yards, but what about 10 mph wind or stronger, or what if someone is shooting 308 and the like. Just curious why they cut those marks short. I do like how they incorporated the center dot (Kahles has been doing this with their MSR K reticle for a while now) and the .2 mil ticks making this very useful when wind holds are under 1 mil but sure would have liked to see the .2 mil marks all the way across or at least for 2 mils. Assuming that Schmidt will soon offer this in their PM II series it will be interesting to see how this reticle compares to the mysterious LRR-Mil reticle they announced a year ago but still hasn't made it to any of their scopes in the US.
     
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    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    It looks nice. But not nice enough for me to upgrade from the original MSR reticle, which I have been running since last spring.

    That is good to hear. Idea was to upgrade/refresh original design and keep it very faithful to original.
    Not make completely new, modded beyond recognition!
     

    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    Interesting enhancements; however, I think it could have been much more useful if they put the little .2 mil hash ticks all the way across the horizontal stadia. Why only for the first mil, for those of us who hold wind and shoot long range we'll want more than one mil of .2 mil marks, can someone explain why they chose to put the .2 mil hash marks only within the first mil? I now shoot with mostly more efficient cartridges and bullets where a 5 mph wind will not push the bullet beyond 1 mil until out past 1000 yards, but what about 10 mph wind or stronger, or what if someone is shooting 308 and the like. Just curious why they cut those marks short.

    This is very good question. We actually thought this quite a bit too, also tested several alternative models. This included.
    Shortly said, final result is about balancing between clarity+speed and finer details+more processing.
    When stress and speed goes up, then clarity always wins. Less is more in this case, at least it is our conclusion.

    About actual aiming points and precision - See pic. It is easy and fast to divide empty spaces to even segments by simply eyeballing horizontal line.
    0.5mils splits to 0.25mils etc, which is in practice very close to 0.2mils = 1.97" difference at 1000m. 0.5mil spacing can be split down to 4 even segments quite precisely, which would equal to 0.125mil deviation. It might not "feel" as precise, but in fact human eye is very good at centering things and splitting spaces to even sizes. Bullet doesn't care about hashes at all, as long as it is aimed right.

    Alternatively - as in pic with simulated 0.2mil hashes in right side of center- there would four times more lines to figure out. Whole feel of view changes from simple and clear to something very different. More markings increases risk of confusion a lot, and more complex patterns usually mean more time has to be used. Also clean look is always better for general observing, and more clarity helps many ways. So for such a small theoretical gain vs 0.2mil lines it is a trade-off we wouldn't want to go with. Naturally 0.2 lines could be split to 0.1 aiming points too, but 0.125mils is not far from it. So multiplying line amount 4x for so little is very questionable.

    As pinpoint precision is needed for extended range first round hits, typically firing solution has to be figured out first anyway. Turret setting for center aiming is done first, and fine tuning / 2nd round corrections are made with reticle center area which has more reference marks now. As small as possible to get the job done without any effort, still keeping it as clear as possible. And even if long range windage is aimed with MSR2 0.5mils hashmark deviation area, it isn't really practical accuracy limiting factor IMO in shooting where it was made for.


    All in all- these are eventually personal preferences. Each should go with system that feels right. Some like extremely complex reticles without even understanding how to use them, some appreciate traditional mildot. Most people are somewhere between. I encourage you to take a look on this reticle at SHOT, pictures are not same than actually seeing it.



    MSR2_hash_spaces.jpg
     
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    PlinkIt

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    Is the Steiner series no longer going to offer the original MSR and just replace that with the MSR 2?
    any timeline of when these are supposed to be available in the Steiner?
    Also article makes reference to the higher magnification scopes, are these going to be in the 3-15 model as well?
     
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    koshkin

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    I like it. This addresses most of the things I did not like in the original.

    Are there going to be any scopes with this reticle in it at SHOT? I am very curious to see it in person.

    ILya
     

    Mute

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    As a current MSR user, I'd say that these enhancements are well thought out and welcomed. It certainly enhances the versatility of this reticle. I think you've more or less addressed the cons that some have noted about this design.
     

    GIXXER2000

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    Nice to see the continued reticle development. I just hope at some point Tangent Theta get the message that WE in the precession shooting community like to have options. I would like to buy a Tangent Theta scope but I just don't like the GEN XR. I really like the MSR update and would consider on my next purchase.
     

    Glassaholic

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    This is very good question. We actually thought this quite a bit this too, also tested several alternative models. This included.
    Shortly said, final result it is about balancing between clarity+speed and finer details+more processing.
    When stress and speed goes up, then clarity always wins. Less is more in this case, at least it is our conclusion.

    About actual aiming points and precision - See pic. It is easy and fast to divide empty spaces to even segments by simply eyeballing horizontal line.
    0.5mils splits to 0.25mils etc, which is in practice very close to 0.2mils = 1.97" difference at 1000m. 0.5mil spacing can be split down to 4 even segments quite precisely, which would equal to 0.125mil deviation. It might not "feel" as precise, but in fact human eye is very good at centering things and splitting spaces to even sizes. Bullet doesn't care about hashes at all, as long as it is aimed right.

    Alternatively - as in pic with simulated 0.2mil hashes in right side of center- there would four times more lines to figure out. Whole feel of view changes from simple and clear to something very different. More markings increases risk of confusion a lot, and more complex patterns usually mean more time has to be used. Also clean look is always better for general observing, and more clarity helps many ways. So for such a small theoretical gain vs 0.2mil lines it is a trade-off we wouldn't want to go with. Naturally 0.2 lines could be split to 0.1 aiming points too, but 0.125mils is not far from it. So multiplying line amount 4x for so little is very questionable.

    As pinpoint precision is needed for extended range first round hits, typically firing solution has to be figured out first anyway. Turret setting for center aiming is done first, and fine tuning / 2nd round corrections are made with reticle center area which has more reference marks now. As small as possible to get the job done without any effort, still keeping it as clear as possible. And even if long range windage is aimed with MSR2 0.5mils hashmark deviation area, it isn't really practical accuracy limiting factor IMO in shooting where it was made for.


    All in all- these are eventually personal preferences. Each should go with system that feels right. Some like extremely complex reticles without even understanding how to use them, some appreciate traditional mildot. Most people are somewhere between. I encourage you to take a look on this reticle at SHOT, pictures are not same than actually seeing it.




    Thank you very much for taking the time to explain JL. I completely understand what you are saying, this is basically what I've done with the more standard mil hash reticles until the SKMR, EBR-7, MR4, etc. designs came along. I used to have Gen II XR which had very similar .5 mil hash marks and to your point, it didn't cause me to miss anything because I didn't have the finer .2 mil hash marks, as my brain/eye was able to figure out where those minute differences were. I know you folks at FinnAccuracy have done your homework so I'm willing to yield to your experience and testing over what I think (or rather what my brain thinks) would be the best solution. Kudos to you and the team for making a great reticle better and I think you're right, I think if I see this in a scope it will be different from my perception on print. The big question on everyone's mind is you mention taking a look at it at SHOT, are you able to share which booth or whose scopes will be offering the MSR2 first? Thank you.
     

    Vargmat

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    That is good to hear. Idea was to upgrade/refresh original design and keep it very faithful to original.
    Not make completely new, modded beyond recognition!

    Mission completed, as far as I can say.
    For the scandinavian field shooting class, the MSR is the perfect reticle, as far as I am concerned. Keep up the good work at Finnaccuracy!
     

    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    Kudos to you and the team for making a great reticle better and I think you're right, I think if I see this in a scope it will be different from my perception on print. The big question on everyone's mind is you mention taking a look at it at SHOT, are you able to share which booth or whose scopes will be offering the MSR2 first? Thank you.

    Thanks!

    What comes to SHOT - go to Steiner and S&B. Tell guys that unlimited free beer was promised to all who like MSR2.
    Trick wont probably work, but it doesn't cost anything to try.. :)

    Kidding aside- you will find Steiner 12755. S&B booth: N335, 15153.
    Quote from https://finnaccuracy.com/blogs/fa-ne...available-soon :
    "MSR2 will be available first in Steiner Military- series and Schmidt&Bender 3-20 Ultra-Short, PMII 3-27, PMII 5-25 and PMII 5-45. Others will follow."

    Note also that S&B PMII 3-27 has slightly different design, related to technical etching limitations in this particular model.
     

    Glassaholic

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    Thanks!

    What comes to SHOT - go to Steiner and S&B. Tell guys that unlimited free beer was promised to all who like MSR2.
    Trick wont probably work, but it doesn't cost anything to try.. :)

    Kidding aside- you will find Steiner 12755. S&B booth: N335, 15153.
    Quote from https://finnaccuracy.com/blogs/fa-ne...available-soon :
    "MSR2 will be available first in Steiner Military- series and Schmidt&Bender 3-20 Ultra-Short, PMII 3-27, PMII 5-25 and PMII 5-45. Others will follow."

    Note also that S&B PMII 3-27 has slightly different design, related to technical etching limitations in this particular model.

    Hmmm, free beer or MSR2 reticle, I'm not sure what's better ;) Well dangit, now the 3-20 Ultra Short with MSR2 reticle is going to be on my short list. I used to have a 5-20 Ultra Short with P4FL reticle but felt it was too plain, the MSR2 might be just the ticket!
     

    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    I like it. This addresses most of the things I did not like in the original.

    Are there going to be any scopes with this reticle in it at SHOT? I am very curious to see it in person.

    ILya

    Ilya, appreciate your thought and feedback. My honest opinion is that reticle looks much better when looked in scope - as many other reticles too.

    Check out S&B and Steiner in SHOT. But note my post above - S&B 3-27 is slightly different.
     

    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    Is the Steiner series no longer going to offer the original MSR and just replace that with the MSR 2?
    any timeline of when these are supposed to be available in the Steiner?
    Also article makes reference to the higher magnification scopes, are these going to be in the 3-15 model as well?

    Hard to say model line for sure behalf of Steiner. But MSR2 timetable is very, very soon. If you visit SHOT, I am sure they appreciate all feedback and listen customer requests very seriously.
     

    koshkin

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    Ilya, appreciate your thought and feedback. My honest opinion is that reticle looks much better when looked in scope - as many other reticles too.

    Check out S&B and Steiner in SHOT. But note my post above - S&B 3-27 is slightly different.

    I'll go and check it out. I was thinking of testing one of the US scopes from S&B in the coming year, so perhaps I can kill two birds with one stone if I get my hands on one with your new reticle. Or in one of the Steiners.

    ILya
     

    BEJ762

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    I have always enjoyed this reticle design and very much like the improvements made. I would really like to see this reticle incorporated in to the Tangent Theta offerings.
     

    JL

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    I have always enjoyed this reticle design and very much like the improvements made. I would really like to see this reticle incorporated in to the Tangent Theta offerings.

    Thank You. We know some of the TT guys and they know us, I'm sure they listen their customers feedback and requests as well.
    We are very picky about manufacturers that are able to use our designs, but TT is surely one of the top premiums.
     

    Scotch_egg

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    I'll go and check it out. I was thinking of testing one of the US scopes from S&B in the coming year, so perhaps I can kill two birds with one stone if I get my hands on one with your new reticle. Or in one of the Steiners.

    ILya

    a Schmidt US will compliment the Fix nicely!!!

    aiming dots make so much sense. I currently have a Horus in my Ultra short 5-20x50. This reticle could be a replacement.

     

    Glassaholic

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    Thank You. We know some of the TT guys and they know us, I'm sure they listen their customers feedback and requests as well.
    We are very picky about manufacturers that are able to use our designs, but TT is surely one of the top premiums.

    I'll buy the drinks if TT and FinnAccuracy would talk. Just about everyone seems to mention these days "if TT had xxxx reticle", not sure if they have their own in development but the MSR2 seems like a great option to get them back in the game quickly when it comes to competent reticle design. It might even be something I'd consider giving up my Minox ZP5 with MR4 for; while I don't mind Christmas tree designs especially when they're unobtrusive like the MR4, I still prefer a straight vertical stadia like the original SKMR. I read the full writeup on FinnAccuracy last night and it really impressed with 2 years of research and testing and multiple inputs with shooters specializing in different disciplines I'm starting to buy into the design more and more and respect the time and effort that has gone into this update. One thing I hope will be addressed will be the thickness at top magnification, one of the things about the H2CMR reticle with the Schmidt 3-20 was at 20x I felt it was way too thick for my taste, do you have any insight on how thick the MSR2 will be at 20x with the US 3-20?

    JL - if you feel comfortable do you mind commenting on the new MSR2 vs. Schmidt's new LRR-Mil reticle as the designs seem fairly similar. Thank you.
     
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    Glassaholic

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    I have just read this thread on here and it makes reference that the MSR2 is exclusive to Steiner. Can anyone expand on this? https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...he-m5xi-5-25x56mm-scope.6868443/#post-6868908
    According to FinnAccuracy the information is incorrect, that have it on their own website that the reticle will be available in both Steiner AND Schmidt & Bender scopes, only a select bunch, but they also mention other models will follow: https://finnaccuracy.com/blogs/fa-news/msr2-available-soon
     

    Blowby

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    Is it going to be a Kahles option? I know the MSR-Ki already has the Center crosshair dot which I really think is a huge plus.
     
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    Gil P.

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    Will this reticle become available in the Minox ZP5 scopes? I loved the original MSR in the Steiner I had. This looks to be a great improvement, I like that the .2 mil holds do no extend passed 1 mil on the horizontal line.
     
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    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    One thing I hope will be addressed will be the thickness at top magnification, one of the things about the H2CMR reticle with the Schmidt 3-20 was at 20x I felt it was way too thick for my taste, do you have any insight on how thick the MSR2 will be at 20x with the US 3-20?
    JL - if you feel comfortable do you mind commenting on the new MSR2 vs. Schmidt's new LRR-Mil reticle as the designs seem fairly similar. Thank you.

    Another very good question. This shares opinions and is matter of personal preference - until certain point. Thinnest commonly known reticles im aware of were/are PR scopes with Gen2 XR. If my memory still serves me, even 3-18x model shared same 0.025mil hairline thickness with bigger 5-25 model. S&B P4F has been 0.035 in many scopes, also H2CMR is same if I recall correctly.

    Original MSR was considered to be in thick side with 0.05mrad hairline. It was approximate intermediate between P4 and P4F, also H2CMR that came later. Originally MSR hairline was decided to keep on thick side for practical visibility reasons- mirage for instance. Mirage blurs FOV and makes reticle less distinguishable against background view, but also forces to reduce magnification. Mathematically 0.05mrad means 250mm or 10" (rounded) thickness at 5000m/5450yds. Head, or any similar size object, will therefore be completely covered by reticle stating from about 5500yds or over 3.1 miles. In practice, such line weight cross can be used for 10" object aiming up to 4000yds and even beyond IF object offers enough contrast to even see it. Eye centers/aligns reticle cross very well on top of any symmetrical object, so we basically ran out of reasons why hairline should be thinner if visibility should be sacrificed in trade-off.

    How ever, with MSR2, same principle problems have not gone anywhere. Mirage is mirage, usable reticle is still the one you can actually see without any effort. But meanwhile and during last decade, scope magnifications have gone to higher level. So reasoning for thinner hairline became valid - as general feel of reticle weight must be right in magnifications scope is intended to be used.
    Decision to go with dot center allows reticle to be in thick side without sacrificing any precision. In most if not all cases, it does not cause feel of "too thick" appearance even on top of smallest practical targets when final aiming before shot is taken.
    Overall hairline lay-out makes very big difference in general appearance too. If hairline between 1mrad basic steps has lots of hashmarks for almost all possible deviation combinations, then hairline must be relatively thinner to keep feel clear not too covering. Large quantity of lines, often with multiple widths for identifying its mil-dimension location, still requires much more processing. Quantity makes difference itself, but with lighter lineweight big amount does not obstruct general feel too much.

    MSR2 is end result of all this - Now thinner 0.04mrad hairline can still be considered to be little on thick side- but it feels light to look as majority of hairline structure has minimal amount of hashes. As explained before, it is well capable of precise 0.25mrad (or less) aiming by splitting space between 0.5mrad marks. But feel is still clear and lighter too thanks to less markings.
    Dot center is part of this idea. Even with 0.04mrad line, small dot is exact individual aiming point. Cozy to even most "sensitive" eye used to thinnest center-cross.
     
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    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    Will this reticle become available in the Minox ZP5 scopes? I loved the original MSR in the Steiner I had. This looks to be a great improvement, I like that the .2 mil holds do no extend passed 1 mil on the horizontal line.

    Is it going to be a Kahles option? I know the MSR-Ki already has the Center crosshair dot which I really think is a huge plus.

    As mentioned before, we have more MSR2 scopes coming in pipeline. Can not elaborate with details or brands unfortunately.

    But when in doubt, direct feedback to manufacturers wont hurt!
     
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    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    According to FinnAccuracy the information is incorrect, that have it on their own website that the reticle will be available in both Steiner AND Schmidt & Bender scopes, only a select bunch, but they also mention other models will follow: https://finnaccuracy.com/blogs/fa-news/msr2-available-soon

    I can confirm this. MSR2 is not exclusive reticle to any manufacturer.
    I do not know reason for Steiner statement, but I would bet it is simply a typo or misunderstanding. Steiner/Beretta very big company, sometimes these can happen.

    No harm done whatsoever, MSR2 is coming :)
     

    EDDK9

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    Steiner said it will be exclusive to their Military(M) line and not in their other line offerings. They never meant or said that no other manufactures would be able to have MSR2 licensee but them. I believe this is where the reading comprehension problem is coming from.
     
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    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    JL - if you feel comfortable do you mind commenting on the new MSR2 vs. Schmidt's new LRR-Mil reticle as the designs seem fairly similar. Thank you.
    LLR-mil seem to be good modern addition to S&B own reticle line, new alternative to classic P4 reticle.
    0.1 / 0.2 mil hashmarks on opposite sides trough whole hairline, following certain type of trend/principle idea started by H2CMR.
    Also added fixed target size shortcuts and "estimation boxes". Fixed TGT size system has been used in countless forms since WWII, hard to say how "box" works without trying.

    By looking just numbers, exceptionally small center dot might be worth mentioning. Dot diameter is 0.063"@100meter, meaning 1/5 of .30 bullet diameter. As reference, MSR2 center dot dia is about half of .30 bullet in same distance, 0.167". It is actually same than in Kahles k624i MSR-K, but with slightly larger air-gap before center cross hairlines.
     
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    JL

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    Steiner said it will be exclusive to their Military(M) line and not in their other line offerings. They never meant or said that no other manufactures would be able to have MSR2 licensee but them. I believe this is where the reading comprehension problem is coming from.

    Ok, Steiner sentence makes perfect sense now. Thanks for asking it and clarifying this to us all.
     

    Glassaholic

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    LLR-mil seem to be good modern addition to S&B own reticle line, new alternative to classic P4 reticle.
    0.1 / 0.2 mil hashmarks on opposite sides trough whole hairline, following certain type of trend/principle idea started by H2CMR.
    Also added fixed target size shortcuts and "estimation boxes". Fixed TGT size system has been used in countless forms since WWII, hard to say how "box" works without trying.

    By looking just numbers, exceptionally small center dot might be worth mentioning. Dot diameter is 0.063"@100meter, meaning 1/5 of .30 bullet diameter. As reference, MSR2 center dot dia is about half of .30 bullet in same distance, 0.167". It is actually same than in Kahles k624i MSR-K, but with slightly larger air-gap before center cross hairlines.
    Thank you very much for the thorough response. A little thicker than the Kahles SKMR and a little thinner than MSR sounds just right.
     
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    JL

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    http://tinyurl.com/2m9yv3
    I don't see why update wouldn't be possible. S&B offers reticle swaps for any PMII already. It is not cheap, but as long as factory (or S&B USA?) has reticle lenses in shelf for certain scope type, they could naturally swap it too.
    These are in pipeline and guys in factory are pushing hard with this too. Some scope models are available sooner than others, but S&B 3-27 is already done, ready and can be ordered. Others will follow soon, in certain order I can not guarantee or tell for sure behalf of Bender. My guess is that 3-20 Ultra comes next.

    Steiner M5Xi 5-25 MSR2 besides S&B 3-27 is already available, in stock here for instance. Probably one of very few dealers globally having it already:
    https://finnaccuracy.com/products/steiner-m5xi-military-5-25x56-0-1mrad-cw-msr

    Does anyone have information on availability, and if S&B will offer reticle swaps for existing scopes with MSR reticle? Really like all the changes.
     
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    Lngrngdoc

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    Thanks JL. Emailed S&B in Virginia and reticles not yet available for swap. No ETA yet but this will be a nice option in the future. Just had Nightforce switch an ATACR Mil R to C reticle and cost was $550. Imagine Schmidt will be around the same.
     
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    Starbuck

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    S&B must pay Finnaccuracy a royalty fee for each MSR reticle. This is fee is built into the cost of new scopes, and is also reflected in the cost of reticle swaps. I just had an MSR installed in my 3-20x50 PMII, and the cost was $750 plus shipping.
     

    Glassaholic

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    S&B must pay Finnaccuracy a royalty fee for each MSR reticle. This is fee is built into the cost of new scopes, and is also reflected in the cost of reticle swaps. I just had an MSR installed in my 3-20x50 PMII, and the cost was $750 plus shipping.
    Yes they do, seems to average around $100 - $200 per scope, Horus does the same thing; however, I do not remember Kahles charging additional for the MSRK reticle, so maybe some manufacturers just absorb the cost?