Hello! This has probably been covered a hundred times in this forum. Ive spent many hours searching and reading and Im looking to start a thread to kind of consolidate options to one place. Im a convert from a gas rifle to a bolt rifle, have been shooting gas rifles since I could walk. First firearm I ever fired was a Browning BAR .270 and have since bought many AR-15's and AR-10's. Recently my shooting buddy purchased a M98B and we've been shooting it and I love shooting the bolt rifle. Im looking to step into a good to high quality bolt rifle for my first bolt rifle. My personal shooting range goes out to about 750 yards while I have friends that have tens of thousands of acres in the Flint Hills that I can easily achieve a 2,000 yard range when/if the time comes. From my readings the 6mm and the 6.5mm seem to be a very popular long range round, maybe more so than the .308. Im open to just about anything in terms of calibers, I can sit down and put 60 rounds of .338 Lapua down range (when my friend supplies the ammo of course) and have absolutely no shoulder soreness so the recoil of the firearm isn't a problem for me. Have talked to a couple local guys that said I should just buy a Remington 700 and put a new stock on it and call it good, part of me is okay with that but most of me want to buy right the first time and get a very good high quality firearm. What are y'all's opinions of the firearm manufacturers out there? How about calibers? My budget is going to be around $7,000 max for a complete system if thats possible. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Pictures and first hand experiences with the rifles would be awesome. Another question I have is I see a lot of rifles with McMillan type stocks on them, why do those kind of stocks seem to be the preferred choice over stocks such as the KRG Whiskey-3 or AICS stocks?
- Thread starter tmwilkes
- Start date
save money for ammo.
R700 308 5R or SPS or Police or LTR, all good. AICS stock as you can in stall it yourself without bedding. Timney trigger. 20moa picatini top rail. Vortex 34mm heavy duty rings or Seekins. Burris XTR 20X. Harris swivel bipod.
lots and lots of shooting 168 or 175 grain match ammo.
This basic formula will get you very far. Once you have gotten to the point where you can outshoot that combination you will be ready to sell it and buy your Stradivarius. And you will know exactly what you will want.
Trust me dude, I wasted a lof of money and time trying to do it right. If I could go back in time the above is what I would have done.
Otherwise just go for the AIAX or TRG22 and a SnB 25x and be done with it. It will be wasted on you however.
R700 308 5R or SPS or Police or LTR, all good. AICS stock as you can in stall it yourself without bedding. Timney trigger. 20moa picatini top rail. Vortex 34mm heavy duty rings or Seekins. Burris XTR 20X. Harris swivel bipod.
lots and lots of shooting 168 or 175 grain match ammo.
This basic formula will get you very far. Once you have gotten to the point where you can outshoot that combination you will be ready to sell it and buy your Stradivarius. And you will know exactly what you will want.
Trust me dude, I wasted a lof of money and time trying to do it right. If I could go back in time the above is what I would have done.
Otherwise just go for the AIAX or TRG22 and a SnB 25x and be done with it. It will be wasted on you however.
this
For 750-1200, a 260 Rem will do but 1200 is really the practical limit IMO. For 2000, a 300 win mag or 7mm mag might be the minimum for practicality sake. As you noted, a 338 Lapua makes 2000 no problem. Surgeon, GAP, and several custom makers will set you up nicely, in any caliber. Having done the stock R700 then upgrade, I would just have a custom maker do it up front. Also, order a few chambered barrels (3 or 4) with the rifle and learn how to change them yourself. My experience comes from having a 260, 300 win, 338 Lapua, 308 win all done by a pro builder minus the 300 win that was stock but later upgraded. I normally shoot 300 to past 2500 (with no luck) a few times a month. Kreiger barrels have proven to be top notch, and timney triggers work well. Nightforce, Vortex, and Sightron scopes make me happy. S&B may be the best and at $7k, you could fit one in. Stock choice comes down to comfort. I like the McMillan as the AICS felt funny to me. Also, for normalcy sake, you are outside of that when it comes to shooting a 338 all day with no soreness. 100 338 rounds in one day makes me have to take a two week break. If you plan to compete, one of the 6.5 or 6mm calibers will be your best bet. In all seriousness, get two rifles; a big one and a 6mm or a 6.5mm.
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If I could go back in time, I would have kept my original Rem 5R 308 in a A5 w/ a NF scope and shot the barrel out before I ever bought anything else. I would be a better shooter now if I had done this. You probably wont listen to any advice except for that telling you to go call a custom builder and spend $3K-$4K on a new rifle. So, my advice to you is since you are determined is go to the Firearms For Sale section here and pick out one of the many fine rifles that have been custom built only to grace the top of the dinner table for pics to be taken and then never fired. Youll save a lot of money and still get your "high end" custom rifle.
There's a lot of good replies here. Me personally, I'm happy I started with a stock sps tactical in .308 and worked my way up. I've learned a lot about the gun and have done everything myself. I'm still learning every day. Sure I probably could have saved some money buying everything at first.. But the extra money spent was not a waste in my opinion. The knowledge and experience were worth it.
I would focus a great deal on your choice of glass. With your budget, I wouldn't scrimp on that no matter what. A high quality scope can move with you to whatever rifle you evolve into as your needs/tastes/skills change. I went the 5r route (McRee, Timney, Seekins, Bushnell) and I've been very happy. At this point, I'm the weak link not the rifle. If that ever changes, I'll rebarrel it. I'd also take a look at the Tikka T3 CTR and FN SPR as possible alternatives.
I envy the ranges you have access to. About twice a year, I get access to a 400-500 yard range on my in-laws land. The rest of the time I'm limited to 100-200.
Good luck, enjoy, and welcome.
I envy the ranges you have access to. About twice a year, I get access to a 400-500 yard range on my in-laws land. The rest of the time I'm limited to 100-200.
Good luck, enjoy, and welcome.
Im going to go a little different here...
Id say pick up a Savage 10. You can get them in the popular 308 and 6.5 creedmoor flavors and have an easy system you can change the barrel on yourself in about 15-20 minutes start to finish. This will allow you to really try out different calibers at will without paying about 5-600 like you would on a remington. They are every bit (and possibly more) accurate stock for stock with a remington. Stock makers like mcmillan, b&c and manners as well as a few chassis companies all make stocks for them and there are a few trigger kits out there as well.
I will agree spend the bulk of your money on a great optic and ammo though. You can make many rifles shoot excellent with a little work but a bad scope will always be a bad scope and a thorn in your side.
With all that said the justification is yours...you can always grow into an AI or Trg or a custom if you want the quality, just be sure you are comfortable with those stocks. Tikka, savage, FN, remington are all great choices and you can argue any one of them better than the other. Ive owned or shot all of the above mentioned and I wouldnt sweat putting any new one in my safe again.
Id say pick up a Savage 10. You can get them in the popular 308 and 6.5 creedmoor flavors and have an easy system you can change the barrel on yourself in about 15-20 minutes start to finish. This will allow you to really try out different calibers at will without paying about 5-600 like you would on a remington. They are every bit (and possibly more) accurate stock for stock with a remington. Stock makers like mcmillan, b&c and manners as well as a few chassis companies all make stocks for them and there are a few trigger kits out there as well.
I will agree spend the bulk of your money on a great optic and ammo though. You can make many rifles shoot excellent with a little work but a bad scope will always be a bad scope and a thorn in your side.
With all that said the justification is yours...you can always grow into an AI or Trg or a custom if you want the quality, just be sure you are comfortable with those stocks. Tikka, savage, FN, remington are all great choices and you can argue any one of them better than the other. Ive owned or shot all of the above mentioned and I wouldnt sweat putting any new one in my safe again.
For $7K you should be able to buy a nice setup. Myself personally think if you're going to buy a 5R why not buy something similar but better from a custom builder or like trevor300wsm mentioned, the forum classifieds. I think you could probably do it for less than $6K from the bipod up if you play your cards right. Thats just my opinion. You could use any left over $ to buy ammo or a decent rangefinder.
Take a look at the DTA SRS. You can get a 6.5 barrel for 1000 yds or less and a 338 for the long range work. Barrel changes takers than a minute and can be done easily in the field. Supper accurate platform too.
There are usually some really good deals on custom rifles in our classifieds. I bought a used custom rifle from there for $1900 that likely cost $3500 when it was built.
I like 90 degree bolt throw and light weight single stage triggers but if I didn't I'da bought a Accuracy International and called it good.
Pretty much any 6 or 6.5 cartridge will meet your needs. People like them because of their low recoil and have less wind drift than 308.
This is IMO the best scope on the market for the money http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/optics-sale/266057-wts-bushnell-hdmr-h59.html
I like 90 degree bolt throw and light weight single stage triggers but if I didn't I'da bought a Accuracy International and called it good.
Pretty much any 6 or 6.5 cartridge will meet your needs. People like them because of their low recoil and have less wind drift than 308.
This is IMO the best scope on the market for the money http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/optics-sale/266057-wts-bushnell-hdmr-h59.html
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What are you going to use the rifle for? Is it just for fun shooting long range out in the hills or are you interested in formal competitions; tactical comps vs f class? Do you reload or going to use store bought ammo?
When I started, I decided I was going to make sure any issues were ONLY mine - I wanted excellent equipment.
Whatever you do make sure you have accurate an reliable equipment. If you buy an out of the box rifle you spin the wheel
and take your chances. Keep in mind you may not be able to tell how accurate your rifle is at distance because of your own skill
issues.
Chassis vs stocks is a personal choice. These days stocks from Manners and other have looong lead times. A chassis is a
quick solution sometimes.
My advice would be to buy a proven rifle used here on the Hide....DO NOT hire a custom builder.
Whatever you do make sure you have accurate an reliable equipment. If you buy an out of the box rifle you spin the wheel
and take your chances. Keep in mind you may not be able to tell how accurate your rifle is at distance because of your own skill
issues.
Chassis vs stocks is a personal choice. These days stocks from Manners and other have looong lead times. A chassis is a
quick solution sometimes.
My advice would be to buy a proven rifle used here on the Hide....DO NOT hire a custom builder.
This is why Im here, Im looking for advice. If starting with a Remington and modifying it is the best starting point then thats most likely the route I will go. Im completely undecided on what direction I want to go. I just know I want to do it right, and if by right that means starting with the Remington then I'm game for that. Y'all have way more experience in this world than I do, I completely respect y'all's advice and knowledge. Looking at the SPS, 5R Mil-Spec and the 700P it looks to just be a preference of barrel length. Should I make my decision on barrel length or twist rate? The SPS Tactical is 1:10, the 5R Milspec is 1:11.2 and the 700P is 1:12. My understanding is that heavier bullets are better for long range shooting, wouldn't the 1:10 twist be better for that? Or should I not worry about that and go for the longer barrel?
Im a huge fan of Vortex, I run a Viper PST 4-16x50 on my PWS mk216 and a Razor HD Gen 2 1-6x24 on my Wilson Combat 6.8. I will probably pick up the new 4.5-27x56 for my new rifle. I've read great things about it.
Are there any good shooting schools/classes in the Kansas/Oklahoma/Missouri area?
lawman29, eventually I would like to compete if I can get to that level. I would prefer tactical competitions. Yes I do reload, I have a single stage, turret and A/P press.
SSG 3000 and $1500-$2500 scope of your choice. I'd spend the rest on ammo and reloading. The more you shoot the better you'll be.
Great choice on glass, that's what I would have recommended. And that's a great piece that you can keep forever.
If I were to do it over again I would buy a Savage LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor, Drop it in an XLR element chassis and shoot the bbl out of it before you decide what you really want. I suggest the 6.5 over the 308 on the basis that you are not a new shooter and hopefully already have some fundamentals and the 6.5's out perform the 308 by a good margin allowing you to shoot greater distances and learn to call the wind without being hindered by the 308's trajectory. Everyone likes different things when it comes to rifles and the only way you can find out what you prefer is to shoot something and then take the things that you like and apply it to your next rifle and take the things that you don't like and stay away from them. I feel like you need that experience to be able to talk to a gunsmith and actually tell them what you want and make it happen. Get behind as many rifles as you can before you make a decision, most guys I know would gladly let a new shooter lay down behind their rig and put a few rounds through it.
If I were to do it over again I would buy a Savage LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor, Drop it in an XLR element chassis and shoot the bbl out of it before you decide what you really want. I suggest the 6.5 over the 308 on the basis that you are not a new shooter and hopefully already have some fundamentals and the 6.5's out perform the 308 by a good margin allowing you to shoot greater distances and learn to call the wind without being hindered by the 308's trajectory. Everyone likes different things when it comes to rifles and the only way you can find out what you prefer is to shoot something and then take the things that you like and apply it to your next rifle and take the things that you don't like and stay away from them. I feel like you need that experience to be able to talk to a gunsmith and actually tell them what you want and make it happen. Get behind as many rifles as you can before you make a decision, most guys I know would gladly let a new shooter lay down behind their rig and put a few rounds through it.
You didnt mention whether you reload or not. If you don't I'd agree with Bear24 - Savage LRP in 6.5 creed with an aftermarket chassis like the XLR element. If you do reload, look at the Tikka T3 Sporter or CTR in .260 Remington. The Sporter stock is excellent, but you can also swap into a Whiskey 3 or X-ray if you want. I personally prefer the smoother bolt and Tikka trigger, but Tikka doesn't have any rifles in 6.5 creed.
And some good info on scopes here - Tactical Scopes: Field Test Results Summary & Overall Scores | PrecisionRifleBlog.com. A good scope is a must.
+1 to this. Here is what I have and the accuracy is crazy! I will post target pics at 100 yards and 300 yards (300 yards is the most I did on paper. I have been able to shoot a corona bottle at 832 yards and it took me 4 shots to walk it in. I didnt have my chrono with me to get the right velocity input) What you will see on the target pics is all shot with Winchester Match 168gr SMK ammo that I bought bulk at a nasty cheap price! Either way it shots like tits out of the .308 I have. The best part when you are ready to upgrade to a different caliber you build off the action and call it a day.
Remmy 700 SPS Var .308 Win $600
McRee Chassis+NV mount+rail $936
Harris 6-9 Swivel BR Bipod $100
Muzzel Brake $130
Timney 510 trigger $130
TPS 20MOA Rail $90
Badger 30mm Rings $160
Stock Pack $16
Swfa SS 5-20 $1000
Sun shade $30
Barrel Threading $75
-------------------------------------
Total is $3,267
@ 100 Yards. The Win Match 168gr ammo will shot groups like this all day long no joke! I will be out tomorrow doing it again.
@ 300 yards. This was after I didnt shoot longer distances for a long time. About 2 years.
Then the second group.
You are definitely on the right track and have received some great advice so far. Personally, I lean more towards running a factory rifle with or without an upgraded stock till you can out shoot it rather than buying the most accurate rifle you can afford right away. After you can out shoot a factory rifle you will have a better idea where/what to spend the big dollars on to fits your needs/desires. I know this is sacrilege to say on here, but long range shooting may not even hold you're interest long enough to warrant a high dollar long range rig down the road.
To answer a few questions:
I wouldn't waste my time worrying about 10:1 vs 11.25:1 as both will serve you well, but since you asked... Faster twist rates do stabilize heavy bullets better, but there is a danger of over stabilizing bullets too. An over stabilized bullet(spinning too fast) will fly nose high, which in short induces more drag reducing the BC of the bullet. A bit of a controversial subject and I don't claim to have the answer, however, from what I've gathered general consensus lately seems to lean towards around 11-11.5:1 being optimal for 168/175's.
The new razor is definitely getting some good reviews and you simply can't beat Vortex's warranty and turn around time. I haven't played with one, but I imagine I would really like the reticle. Can't go wrong with spending money on a high quality optic!
I'm still fairly new to the long range game myself coming from other competitive shooting disciplines, but to me you asked the single most important question "where to find good training". As much as gear is hyped, from my point of view nothing matters nearly as much to the long range equation as the shooter. Online training here is a great resource, but an experienced trainer watching you is greatly beneficial as well. I know I learned as much in a single local class with good instructors as I did reading/watching hours worth of online resources and in the first 15 trips to the range by myself combined. Do a quick google search for training classes in your area to see if anything interests you and then ask about them here. High end classes that require some travel like Rifles Only might also be worth taking into consideration.
This or the new 2014 AI AT in 260 & 308. easy to load for. SMK 175 gr. or Berger 185 gr. VLDs for out to 1000 yards and 260 for 1000 to 1400 and cheaper to shoot and less punishing than 338LM. You can easily switch barrels in both with just a torque wrench. You could also get the 338LM conversion kit for the DTA, but NOT with the AI!
I have both and prefer the 2 stage trigger on the AI! Won't have much left for a scope, but a nice used Vortex Razor HD 5-20 in mil or MOA should suit your needs well, but remember that scope has a 35 mm tube and 35 mm mounts are hard to come by! That set up would last forever and when a barrel burns out, $750 will get you a new one and one scope for 2 calibers with consistent zero shift when switching between calibers. Resale value will hold better with AI or DTA than a custom rifle, if you get bored and decide to go another direction...
For your budget forget a stock rifle. It would be pissing away money that you will have to spend again when you upgrade. If you want a switch barrel then the DTA and AI AT are the way to go. Top it with a Bushnell XRS or Vortex Gen II. Then go shoot it.
Honestly, if you have a chance to feel the guns before you purchase one that would be the way to go. Getting a gun that you are comfortable shooting is important in my opinion. If you can't seem to get comfortable behind the rifle you are going to have a problem shooting it. You have $7k to use which is quite a bit of money to start off with, many of us would love to have those funds for our first rifles. Grab the one you feel more comfortable with and it will last you a long long time if that happens to be a stock/custom Remington 700/Tikka T3/FN or High End Factory (AI/Sako) so be it just make sure you actually like it. Many people spend large amounts of money to realize the don't like what they bought. If you don't like what you bought you won't shoot it. You have lots of options to choose from, good luck.
tmwilkes, my budget is no where near 7 large. I wanted to get into long range/tactical type shooting.....one a limited budget. Two weeks ago I ordered a new Remington 700 SPS Varmint 308 Win. 26" 1/12" twist from Buds. Last weekend I bought a really nice used Leupold VARI-X III 4.5-14x50mm Long Range Tactical Scope w/30mm tube, side focus, target turrets at a gun show (going to send it back to Leupold this winter to have M1 turrets installed and maybe a different reticle). My mount, rings and Timny 510 trigger just came today. I think in total I have $1330 invested so far.
You could start out with something like my setup as already mentioned to gain experience then keep or sell it when you want your new rifle. Or use the action to build your next/serious rifle from. Just something to think about.
Good luck, NYH1.
You could start out with something like my setup as already mentioned to gain experience then keep or sell it when you want your new rifle. Or use the action to build your next/serious rifle from. Just something to think about.
Good luck, NYH1.
After all the great advice and information I'm seriously leaning towards a Remington 700 or possibly the Tikka in .260. I really like the KRG Whiskey-3, I got to sit down behind one this weekend and take a couple of shots. It will most likely be the Remington in .308, I already have Redding Competition dies for .308 so I wouldn't need to buy a new set of dies for reloading. Then my thinking is set the rest of my budget aside for down the road, when I am actually ready for a AI or GAP or Surgeon. I admit, Im a long way from being able to shoot to the ability of those kind of rifles, feel like a factory rifle would be the best choice for practicing on and building a solid foundation for precision rifles with.
I tend to follow the "buy once cry once" saying when funds allow. If you're planning on getting an AI or GAP down the road, why not just get it now if it's in the budget? I don't see the point in spending $600-$1,000 on a R700 with the intentions of replacing it. You mention being "a long way from being able to shoot to the ability of those kind of rifles", but you can grow with the rifle instead of growing out of it. If had around $7K for a setup, I would look at an AI AT in 6.5CM with a Vortex Razor HD Gen 2.
Sako trg with the factory folding chassis with a Bushnell xrs, Steiner or vortex razor gen 2.
I have a tikka t3 in a mdt lss chassis with a xlr tactical lite buttstock with folder and with some Steiner glass and couldn't be happier. No need to replace or tweek the trigger or action. The trg is a upgrade from what I'm running so I can imagine how nice that is.
I have a tikka t3 in a mdt lss chassis with a xlr tactical lite buttstock with folder and with some Steiner glass and couldn't be happier. No need to replace or tweek the trigger or action. The trg is a upgrade from what I'm running so I can imagine how nice that is.
RW Snyder Gunsmithing. Get the base custom rifle in 6.5 CM with oversize bolt knob and Timney trigger. Drop it into a MCS T4 mini chassis. Get a harris bipod with it. Top it off with a Gen 2 Vortex Razor.
Do it right the first time.
Do it right the first time.
Do not decide on a caliber based on the fact that you already have a set of dies. The cost of a new set of dies is irrelevant when you consider how much you'll be spending on ammo and/or components and travel etc. etc. If you get into tactical comps and you look at what they're using there seems to be a preponderance of some variant of 6mm/6.5mm. Some calibers will have readily available match grade ammo for sale other's don't. Take your time and get behind a variety of rifles so you can figure out what "stock" fits and trips your trigger...
I read that you have a 7k budget, but you are leaning towards the 308 because you allready have the dies and won't have to buy new dies. You have shooting ranges available that most of us would kill for, but you are still looking at the 308. I know every one has a 308 including me, but ask every ones opinion about a BA long range rifle, and then choose a caliber that is a little on the short side leaves me scratching my head.
