I have chosen the Bergara HMR 22" barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor. My ultimate goal is one mile, with expert supervision, NRA Certified Instructor, in the daylight on a private range. My question is for you that have experience and can advise me properly. I'm looking at a NIB Vortex Razor HD RZR-52006 FFP 5-20X50 EBR-2B. I believe this is Gen 1. The asking price is in my financial range 800 - 1000. I believe this optic will suit my needs, what do you think ? Thanks in advance...
Rifle Scopes New shooter , New rifle .
- Thread starter wadisc
- Start date
I would recommend having look at area419 for one of their performance packages for the bergara rifles also.
Curious what you mean when you say "more forgiving"?
The 6.5 will do a mile. The problem will be spotting splash.
The Flatline 120g solid will do 2k supersonic out of a 6.5. They just cost a lot.
The Flatline 120g solid will do 2k supersonic out of a 6.5. They just cost a lot.
You know exactly what I mean...the FFP reticle changes with magnification and can be hard to see at low mag and can be large at high mag, while the SFP reticle will always be the same size and you can get more mag with the SFP scopes which may be better suited for the distance the OP is looking to shoot. My choice at a mile will always be SFP over FFP.
Ok, gotcha.
Yeah if you're not ever going to use the scope in positions where you need to dial back mag and you'll effectively use it as a fixed-power high-mag scope, or if you're willing to live with a duplex at any mag other than full, or if you're willing to do calculations that are unnecessary with an FFP, then I guess SFP is fine. I don't call that "more forgiving", so that was what my question was geared towards. I honestly thought your comment was geared towards eye box or something like that.
Nope, just that the OP will be shooting a known target size at a known distance out to 1800 yards, so a FFP reticle at that distance will appear very large over the target at full mag, while the SFP scope will give a very nice sized "more forgiving" reticle at full mag.
It's obvious there are a lot of folks around here that drank the FFP Cool-Aid and I admit I do have both and both have their place, but the OP may be best suited with a nice SFP scope, which will be both easier for him to use "more forgiving" than a FFP at both low and high magnification and best of all a SFP scope is cheaper than the FFP scope all day every day...
Nope, I used to use SFP NF NXS 5.5-22's, owned 3 of them. FFP, having the reticle subtensions consistent at any magnification is important for wind holdoffs/FFP and so is being on the appropriate magnification for FOV and/or mirage. OP, the first time you dial mag down to suit conditions and hold for wind with the subtensions being wrong you'll be cussing SFP.
Appear very large - C'mon man, that's total bull. Even if a reticle thickness was .1 mil, that's only 3.6" thick at 1000Y. 7.2" at 2000Y. Few if any ELR rifles gonna shoot that tight at those distances and nobody is guessing wind that small either. Reality check, .05 mil is 1.8" thick at 1000Y which is a normal FFP reticle thickness.
This has nothing to do with hype or drinking Koolaide, more to do with sensibility with less attention required, and besides I'm sure the OP will be using his new rifle for other types of shooting besides fixed distance ELR, where FFP excels if there is any dynamic scenario.
Using a high magnification SFP scope in moa on moa target bulls at fixed distances, that's plenty sensible.
The one SFP I use actually has a thick mildot reticle so on 4x I can see it for quick shots in the close junipers on coyotes. I've not put it on 10x where subtenions are correct when I've shot long range - cuss, I forget sometimes since I'm used to the """convenience""" of FFP.
Appear very large - C'mon man, that's total bull. Even if a reticle thickness was .1 mil, that's only 3.6" thick at 1000Y. 7.2" at 2000Y. Few if any ELR rifles gonna shoot that tight at those distances and nobody is guessing wind that small either. Reality check, .05 mil is 1.8" thick at 1000Y which is a normal FFP reticle thickness.
This has nothing to do with hype or drinking Koolaide, more to do with sensibility with less attention required, and besides I'm sure the OP will be using his new rifle for other types of shooting besides fixed distance ELR, where FFP excels if there is any dynamic scenario.
Using a high magnification SFP scope in moa on moa target bulls at fixed distances, that's plenty sensible.
The one SFP I use actually has a thick mildot reticle so on 4x I can see it for quick shots in the close junipers on coyotes. I've not put it on 10x where subtenions are correct when I've shot long range - cuss, I forget sometimes since I'm used to the """convenience""" of FFP.
The only sort of a "precision" SFP scope I currently use is the Delta 5-50x56 which is an excellent general purpose target scope, but when I have to use the reticle for anything, I go to FFP. There is a reason for that. The SFP Stryker does work really well at closer distances and when I am spotting for other people. As far as the reticle blocking too much of the target goes, that is a myth that started when the only FFP scopes around were old Euro hunting scopes with thick post reticles. It has not been true for tactical scopes for decades. Modern reticles are designed with this kind of shooting in mind.
Gen 1 Razor for $800 is a good deal and a very solid scope. Make sure it is the version with 10 mrad per turn turrets.
ILya
Gen 1 Razor for $800 is a good deal and a very solid scope. Make sure it is the version with 10 mrad per turn turrets.
ILya
Lots of FFP cool-aid being made here...
The OP should be able to pickup a nice SFP optic soon in the classified section here on the Hide after folks drink it it all in, so pls keep making it cuz you’re actually helping the OP acquire what he needs at a better value.
Post those SFPs up boys, we will watch for them in the classifieds.
OP, Good luck and resistance to FFP assimilation is futile or is it?
The OP should be able to pickup a nice SFP optic soon in the classified section here on the Hide after folks drink it it all in, so pls keep making it cuz you’re actually helping the OP acquire what he needs at a better value.
Post those SFPs up boys, we will watch for them in the classifieds.
OP, Good luck and resistance to FFP assimilation is futile or is it?
Question for you. If I have my FFP NF 5-25 MIL-R set at 25x and a SFP NF 5-25 MIL-R set at 25x, will the reticle be thinner on one or the other? Now lets say I have to drop down to 18x thanks to mirage... which scope will obscure the target more in your opinion?
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You know the answer to that question otherwise you wouldn’t have asked it.
Why don’t y’all start your own thread and stop jacking this one if your not willing to help the OP.
I asked for your opinion. Seems like the actual answer goes against that...
We are helping him by explaining why there is nothing wrong with FFP in this scenario after you acted like SFP is the only way to go with false information. SFP has its place, but stop drinking the SFP cool-aid and think about the question I asked. Can't wait to hear your opinion on the answer.
Some questions you should ask yourself.
How often are you going to be pushing to a mile?
Do you think you may want to try NRL/PRS comps?
Do you think you may decide to change scopes?
R
How often are you going to be pushing to a mile?
Do you think you may want to try NRL/PRS comps?
Do you think you may decide to change scopes?
R
I get it all the cool kids have FFP optics. As I’ve stated above I have both and both have their place, but the facts remain:
FACT: OP has up to $1k to spend on an optic
FACT: OP does not need FFP for shooting out to 1800 yards at known distances under no time constraints
FACT: OP can get more magnification and higher quality glass for his bucks by going with a SFP optic
FACT: OP has up to $1k to spend on an optic
FACT: OP does not need FFP for shooting out to 1800 yards at known distances under no time constraints
FACT: OP can get more magnification and higher quality glass for his bucks by going with a SFP optic
Here you go OP, this is some good solid advice by him and I agree with him that you should go with SFP in your use case.
Just ignore his earlier post about reticle size when compared to FFP as that is incorrect most of the time. That was my only issue as that myth has to die some day.
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FFP is not needed if you’re just leaving it at full mag. I don’t have a lot of LR shooting experience but I can imagine mirage bad enough to where I’d be voluntarily dialing down mag for a mile shot unless my top mag was over like 35x.
To the OP: you need every inch of barrel you can get for the Creed at that distance. I’d look at the Scheels special edition Bergara HMR with another 2” of barrel
To the OP: you need every inch of barrel you can get for the Creed at that distance. I’d look at the Scheels special edition Bergara HMR with another 2” of barrel
The price is great and Vortex will still have it covered under its warranty. In case you wonder what a Bergara B14 HMR 22" in 6.5 Creedmoor with a Vortex Razor HD (Gen1) 5-20x50 EBR-2B FFP on a Talley 20MOA Picatinny Rail looks like. Oh, and yes gotta love those 125 MOA total elevation in that scope and the glass is plenty clear and sharp even into the outer perimeter. Great choice if I may say so myself. The one mile will depend a lot on your skill, load you are using, and ability to compensate for wind and possibly mirage. 1,200-1,400 yards are pretty sure, past that we're talking experience and skill and right load and conditions with 6.5 Creedmoor.
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^^^ love that someone on here just randomly has the exact same setup being discussed. This board is frickin’ awesome ?
The elevation you are shooting at will make a big difference with a 6.5 at a mile. I am basically at sea level so it’s much, much harder to chuck a 6.5 that far. If you are at 5000 ft it’s a lot easier.
I agree. I'm at Texas at 400' ASL and humidity is often high. Getting 6.5 to a mile here is darn near impossible, although I'll admit that I haven't tried to push mine quite that far. It's just so far into the transonic range I wasn't sure it was even borderline really.
Personally, I'm just not a huge fan of pushing calibers to their absolute limits when you're in the "what do I buy" stage. If you really want to shoot a mile effectively, there are better tools for the task. It's like using a standard 3/8" ratchet to take lugnuts off...can you make it work? Probably. Would a tool designed for that job be much, much more effective. Without a doubt.
If you're in the "I already have a gun and want to see what it can do" phase, then by all means, push it to the edge. But like I said, you wouldn't buy a ratchet to take off lugnuts just because it's versatile enough to do other tasks that you're not currently buying a tool for.
The only time mine ever changes size is when I back it down to find the target, or when I am don't want to/can't dial and need to hold. Otherwise (which is probably 90% of the time) I am on near max power. Just because you have a FFP does not mean you cannot run it wherever you want, rather it is about what you can do without worrying about another calculation.
As far as less money, yeah probably true in most cases unless you are buying junk to begin with but I am not sure they are so much less that you would not want to spend a more and get the FFP insurance. What happens when the scope is no longer used for that one specific shot?
Nobody even asked the OP where he is located. As a means of full disclosure, I live in the mountains and at-sea-level concerns are not an issue here but altitude, station pressure, angle, temperature, mirage and wind still are. I do agree that pushing a caliber to the limits is usually not a good idea, and 1 mile for 6.5 Creedmoor falls into that category, although it can be done under the right conditions as I said before. All scopes have a designated range and it depends what platform you are purchasing them for as well, i.e. home defense AR15, range shooting AR10, hunting bolt action, medium range bolt action, long range bolt action, or extreme range bolt action - what happens to those scopes when you no longer use them for that particular platform, range, or shot? Your answer is: the P.X. The OP stated he wants a long range scope that can handle long range to what is considered the beginning of extreme long range. As for the Vortex Razor HD (Gen1) being junk, I'd beg to differ vehemently, it can cover more than just the extreme shots and has done so since its inception, the words built-like-a-tank have come up with descriptions of it time and time again. Its optics are still among the first tier scopes regardless that there is a GEN2 with less total elevation but even clearer glass and slightly better turrets and more reticle options; at one time all "professional competition shooters" were sporting it, it is still in use with a good many LE SWAT teams and some military outfits, the 125 MOAs can be adjusted up, or down, and Vortex warranty guarantee is well known and proven among the community. If the OP is going to work with a qualified instructor I'm sure all the bases of technique, and calculations will be covered.
