Newbie Asks: Why do you say the Production (Rifle) Division is a Joke?

[hlee]

This has been fun and all, but shooters should worry more about their shooter classification (amateur, marksman, semi-pro, pro) than they do about their gear classification.

Literally no one complains that “K guns” are shooting next to “B guns” in shotgun sports. There are master class shooters shooting Brownings and D class shooters shooting Kolars.

To that end, the PRS could do more with the shooter classification “system” to separate the cream from the curds and whey.

And, if production class is supposed to be the the sponsored division, call it “The Shore.” You know, for the Jerseys…

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Yes, that's my understanding as well. Perhaps that's why the misconception persists.

I had a lengthy phone call with Shannon in 2020 when the MDs were voting on stripping Matt Alwine of the Production win at the Finale. I was one of the few MDs along with Jake Vibbert that felt the rules of what constitutes a Production rifle were vague, and Matt was caught up in the red tape of the description. An error I didn't believe justified stripping the trophy. He earned it with a 3rd overall at the Finale. Shannon was pretty vehement that he was trying to overcome the perception that Production was a beginner division and was trying to take it into a high quality factory rifle division that would draw top shooters.

I think he made a little bit of headway. It's certainly the reason for the ever increasing budget limit allowed for a rifle and scope. They want it to attract more shooters.

Was the the same year that Doug keoing shot the Ruger rifle that was on the website but only like 10 of them were in the wild, all to factory ruger shooters. The fully customized RPR you couldn't actually buy. And they ruled he could keep it?

Lesson here is the sponsor with the biggest checkbook will win. To not only take it from Matt who was shooting a gun from a small time outfit but to allow Doug to get the win because his sponsor cuts a $50K+ check to PRS every year.

I think they should do away with all the dollar amounts. Factory gun, factory ammo. Both need to be the type you can buy in a bass pro, cabelas, scheels, sportsmans. Let the factory gun and ammo companies have their limelight while not making the division the complete joke it is today.

NRL22/PRS22 has a base class which is probably more in line with what people think production PRS should be. Guns under 1k, scopes under $1K and no permanent modifications. I would go as far to limit accessories. Hanging a $900 bipod off a $400 rifle is laughable. Make it so painfull no one will game it and it will trully be run what you brung type shooters and new guys.

 

[stanley_white]

Eventually the PRS will be like SNL’s All Drug Olympics.



-Stan

 

[1911Shootist]

Production should be a place where typical production guns can come play. HMR, CTR, etc. Easy solution: 14-15 lb weight limit, bipod and optic included.

Policing modifications is never enforced, so don’t bother. Leave it open.

Sorting by skill level only works if someone has shot enough larger matches AND someone is cross referencing results. Unless we’re going to force people to get a membership right away (hard pass for many), that leaves it up to regional volunteers to compile, and not everywhere has someone that can or will put in that effort.

As long as you have a scale and a table, you’re set.

 

[hlee]

Sorting by skill level only works if someone has shot enough larger matches AND someone is cross referencing results. Unless we’re going to force people to get a membership right away (hard pass for many), that leaves it up to regional volunteers to compile, and not everywhere has someone that can or will put in that effort.

As long as you have a scale and a table, you’re set.

[Sarcasm]If only there was some sort of electronic registration system for matches that could automatically cross-reference matches, shooters, memberships, etc with minimal human effort.[/Sarcasm]

I mean, the shotgun sports have had this figured out for, what, a decade, at least? Where a typical local PRS match could draw as few as 40-100 shooters, a shotgun event will draw a few hundred. A PRS event has 1 course of fire. A shotgun event will have sporting clays, skeet, trap, 5-stand, Fitasc, and more- with shooters entering multiple events. All of this is tracked in the registration software (kinda like practiscore) which cross-references the memberships via the national organization(s). New (non membership) shooters start in the lowest tier unless they have shot competitively (easily tracked via their name in the database), and shooters with previous experience are graded according to those results.

Hell, the local PRS match has had marksman, expert, and pro divisions for as long as I have shot there. Grading and tracking by skill level isn’t difficult- it’s no longer 1924.

 

[1911Shootist]

[Sarcasm]If only there was some sort of electronic registration system for matches that could automatically cross-reference matches, shooters, memberships, etc with minimal human effort.[/Sarcasm]

I mean, the shotgun sports have had this figured out for, what, a decade, at least? Where a typical local PRS match could draw as few as 40-100 shooters, a shotgun event will draw a few hundred. A PRS event has 1 course of fire. A shotgun event will have sporting clays, skeet, trap, 5-stand, Fitasc, and more- with shooters entering multiple events. All of this is tracked in the registration software (kinda like practiscore) which cross-references the memberships via the national organization(s). New (non membership) shooters start in the lowest tier unless they have shot competitively (easily tracked via their name in the database), and shooters with previous experience are graded according to those results.

Hell, the local PRS match has had marksman, expert, and pro divisions for as long as I have shot there. Grading and tracking by skill level isn’t difficult- it’s no longer 1924.

That would require Practiscore to innovate AND match directors to agree on a format

My first 4 PRS matches were at 4 different ranges, with 4 different MD's.

As an MD for NRL22, I saw on more than one occasion that some shooters can't even spell their own name right, and duplicate names are a thing, especially in the upper midwest where everyone is an Anderson or Smith. It shouldn't be a difficult problem to solve, but there's more than meets the eye.

Heck, we could do both. But first, is Production meant to be a cheap division, or beginner division? We need to pick one and stick with it.

 

[hlee]

That would require Practiscore to innovate AND match directors to agree on a format

My first 4 PRS matches were at 4 different ranges, with 4 different MD's.

As an MD for NRL22, I saw on more than one occasion that some shooters can't even spell their own name right, and duplicate names are a thing, especially in the upper midwest where everyone is an Anderson or Smith. It shouldn't be a difficult problem to solve, but there's more than meets the eye.

Heck, we could do both. But first, is Production meant to be a cheap division, or beginner division? We need to pick one and stick with it.

The first question is really, "is any of this a "problem" that the PRS, as an organization, want's to solve?..."

 

[1911Shootist]

The first question is really, "is any of this a "problem" that the PRS, as an organization, want's to solve?..."

Agreed. I don't see current production rules solving the main problem I hear from new people on why they don't even bother trying PRS, and that is cost & very specific rifle setup. Lots of people have an HMR/CTR/varmint rifle and would like to try it out. Their rifles are accurate & beefy enough for a 10 round string of fire, and they might be MOA shooters with MOA ammo, so why not give them a place to play (and stay).

I don't know any new shooters that give a single shit about trophies or prizes. They just don't want to be 1 of 60 people with a hunting rifle and constantly feeling the pressure to have to upgrade, whether that pressure is real or not.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

At the end of the day the cost of PRS is the cost. You can try to shave dollars here and there but the equipment is cheap part. The travel, match fees, ammo/consumables cost is what drives this. Its not a sport for the poor.

So someone will come out and get humbled and decide its not for them, or get hooked and start down the rabbit hole. Either way they are going to spend stupid money to try and compete and shoot matches.

PRS doesn't see a problem with production because its working as designed. A venue for sponsors to showcase something so they keep paying their $25-100K sponsorship fee to the league, that helps subsidize the other shooters.

Who is complaining about production?

-People who dont shoot PRS. They dont even understand the game enough to have an informed opinion. So its worthless.
-People who shoot production and want easy trophies then bitch about Alwine/Keith/Doug because they are factory shooters.
-People who shoot PRS open. For the most part, we don't care. It doesn't effect us. If a marginal shooter wants to try to sneak into the finale by shooting prod or gas gun, then have at it. They will still finish 240 out of 250.

They could do something like a base class for the real cheap fucks. Make it a Gun/Scope threshold under a certain ammount. Factory ammo. No permenet mods, no adding weights, no $900 bipods. Let the actual poors compete against each other. Kinda reminds me of bum fights from years ago.

 

[rothgyr]

My beef with the classes is that at least regionally, they're empty. I wish more people would switch from open to the classes because it'd be fun to shoot a gas gun against someone at a match or even the season, or to shoot tac against more than one person. I have a .223 bolt gun that I could use for tac, but everyone's focused on winning open. I have a Grendel that can shoot gas gun, but everyone's running a dasher bolt gun in open.

One of my buddies decided to shoot tac last year and won the regional class, and he was kind sour about it because there were only two shooters registered in the division, and they didn't even shoot the finale, or even more than two matches during the season, so he asked me to shoot tac with him this year just to have someone to compete with.

Alwine/Keith/Doug shooting in production is perfectly respectable by me. If you've been shooting open for 5+ years, it'll get boring, and maybe it's nice to switch things up. People show up with RAP 22-250s and Savage 110 Creedmoors and get creamed, but learn a ton and end up getting a 20lbs dasher anyways, and have a great time the whole way.

Again, I'm fine with production not being a beginner class, but I wish MDs and the sport directors would do more to grow the classes so that people have more competition within the classes.

 

[ma smith]

But first, is Production meant to be a cheap division, or beginner division? We need to pick one and stick with it.

I don't think the sponsors really like anything that keeps people from spending money, tho...

 

[fpgt72]

Let me ask another question. Lets say you do win, not THE big you are the best in the country this year match, but one of the regional matches? Is there "real" money on the line?

I ask this because I have a little different view on the matches. Now I have not shot your game but I have shot other games.

I have told the story of shooting a trapdoor springfield at a CMP match before. I had no illusion going in that I was going to win. I fully expected to come in dead last, I did not, but think some of that was luck, or I can read wind better then I think I can.

I chose that rifle because I wanted to shoot that rifle in a game. I thought it would be fun and I had fun. A few months later I moved to a type 99, again for the same reason.

I think a great deal of people get very wrapped up in winning. I have "won" a few things in the past, but it is not why I did it. I did that activity because I wanted to do it.

As I understand "production" class, sound like a division where I could take my Model 70 with a Tasco scope made in 1967, and not make too big a fool out of myself.

 

[hlee]

Let me ask another question. Lets say you do win, not THE big you are the best in the country this year match, but one of the regional matches? Is there "real" money on the line?

I don’t think anyone is making a living from the prize table, but it’s not exactly scraps either. I’ve seen rifles, optics, 50-100% certificates, etc at larger regional matches. But, you’re lucky to get a tee shirt at a local monthly match…

 

[Covertnoob5]

I understand "production" class, sound like a division where I could take my Model 70 with a Tasco scope made in 1967, and not make too big a fool out of myself.

And this is the problem, that’s what it sounds like on the surface but it’s not at all like that. To be competitive in production on the gear side you need a $3k race gun. After that shooter skill. Doug and Matt that win with less are exceptions not the rule.

 

[1911Shootist]

My beef with the classes is that at least regionally, they're empty. I wish more people would switch from open to the classes because it'd be fun to shoot a gas gun against someone at a match or even the season, or to shoot tac against more than one person. I have a .223 bolt gun that I could use for tac, but everyone's focused on winning open. I have a Grendel that can shoot gas gun, but everyone's running a dasher bolt gun in open.

One of my buddies decided to shoot tac last year and won the regional class, and he was kind sour about it because there were only two shooters registered in the division, and they didn't even shoot the finale, or even more than two matches during the season, so he asked me to shoot tac with him this year just to have someone to compete with.

Alwine/Keith/Doug shooting in production is perfectly respectable by me. If you've been shooting open for 5+ years, it'll get boring, and maybe it's nice to switch things up. People show up with RAP 22-250s and Savage 110 Creedmoors and get creamed, but learn a ton and end up getting a 20lbs dasher anyways, and have a great time the whole way.

Again, I'm fine with production not being a beginner class, but I wish MDs and the sport directors would do more to grow the classes so that people have more competition within the classes.

If they are empty, they are not popular. If we want more people in the sport, we need to encourage the run what you brung mentality. Get em in the door, and let them decide if building/buying a 20+ lb rifle is what they want to do. Participation will ebb, but I'd think a ~15lb weight limit would get way more people in the door and keep them around for more than just a match or two. If we draw a line at least a little further away from full custom/open territory, it should be slightly more inviting.

I don't think the sponsors really like anything that keeps people from spending money, tho...

I don't care what the sponsors want. The primary goal is shooting, not buying. It's nice that they support the sport with prizes and donations, but the matches would still happen without them. They are around BECAUSE people participate, not the other way around.

 

[hlee]

And this is the problem, that’s what it sounds like on the surface but it’s not at all like that. To be competitive in production on the gear side you need a $3k race gun. After that shooter skill. Doug and Matt that win with less are exceptions not the rule.

You won’t make a fool out of yourself with a RPR, a vortex scope, and factory ammo, but you won’t be winning either…

 

[hlee]

If they are empty, they are not popular. If we want more people in the sport, we need to encourage the run what you brung mentality. Get em in the door, and let them decide if building/buying a 20+ lb rifle is what they want to do. Participation will ebb, but I'd think a ~15lb weight limit would get way more people in the door and keep them around for more than just a match or two. If we draw a line at least a little further away from full custom/open territory, it should be slightly more inviting.


I don't care what the sponsors want. The primary goal is shooting, not buying. It's nice that they support the sport with prizes and donations, but the matches would still happen without them. They are around BECAUSE people participate, not the other way around.

The primary goal is lining the pockets of the series owners. Never be fooled by “it’s for the shooters…”

 

[Emerson0311]

If they are empty, they are not popular. If we want more people in the sport, we need to encourage the run what you brung mentality. Get em in the door, and let them decide if building/buying a 20+ lb rifle is what they want to do. Participation will ebb, but I'd think a ~15lb weight limit would get way more people in the door and keep them around for more than just a match or two. If we draw a line at least a little further away from full custom/open territory, it should be slightly more inviting.


I don't care what the sponsors want. The primary goal is shooting, not buying. It's nice that they support the sport with prizes and donations, but the matches would still happen without them. They are around BECAUSE people participate, not the other way around.

Once sponsoring manufacturers do not see profit from giving the org $$$, the model is broken. It will probably be driven by overall tough economic times.

 

[lash]

And this is the problem, that’s what it sounds like on the surface but it’s not at all like that. To be competitive in production on the gear side you need a $3k race gun. After that shooter skill. Doug and Matt that win with less are exceptions not the rule.

You are comparing “not make too big a fool of myself” to being competitive. They are not the same thing. You are looking through competitive eyes and not the eyes of a person who just wants to shoot and have fun. Big difference.

 

[Sheldon N]

Let me ask another question. Lets say you do win, not THE big you are the best in the country this year match, but one of the regional matches? Is there "real" money on the line?

No. We generally don't have prize tables at the regional level, except perhaps at the regional finale once a year.

Pro Series 2-day matches will have a prize table, but I've never seen them let a "production" or any other class shooter walk the prize table in any other position than their absolute finish position at a match.

Shooting production won't get you any cash or prizes, just a couple trophies, unless you manage to beat the folks shooting open class.

 

[iceng]

I don't care what the sponsors want. The primary goal is shooting, not buying. It's nice that they support the sport with prizes and donations, but the matches would still happen without them. They are around BECAUSE people participate, not the other way around.

As a sponsor, and someone who sponsors shooters, and national matches, and around as a business before PRS was a thing..

That first line is the single most important. Fully agree with you. This is a shooting sport, not a sponsor sport for mates.

I also dont sponsor much this season.

 

[AlwineArcher]

This was a fun read

 

[Covertnoob5]

This was a fun read

Lol one of the few guys competing with an actual production rifle. Hats off to you sir.

Side note for those confused about the “intent” of the production class:

 

[AlwineArcher]

It is an interesting topic.
If they want it to be a “beginner” division, something needs to change.
Right now it feels more focused on helping to get/keep big manufacturers interested in the sport (Savage, Ruger, etc)
I personally think the sport needs the pocketbooks of major manufacturers in order to grow.

I am confident that the new leadership of Ken and Missy will help the entire situation in the future!

 

[Rob01]

I am confident that the new leadership of Ken and Missy will help the entire situation in the future!

Until they sell it in 2 years and the next contestant on "I own the PRS now" comes in. lol

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Lol one of the few guys competing with an actual production rifle. Hats off to you sir.

Side note for those confused about the “intent” of the production class:

View attachment 8356006

Which is why is broken even by the black and white intent in the rules.

It clearly states that it's essentially to "protect" people with non custom equipment from people running open rigs. I.E. non custom in general can't compete with production rifles, so you get your own division.

@AlwineArcher is a perfect example why that division doesn't operate as intended. If it did, he wouldn't be able to place as well as he does in matches (obviously this isn't a dig at him, just an example of how the division doesn't function as intended).

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

It is an interesting topic.
If they want it to be a “beginner” division, something needs to change.
Right now it feels more focused on helping to get/keep big manufacturers interested in the sport (Savage, Ruger, etc)
I personally think the sport needs the pocketbooks of major manufacturers in order to grow.

I am confident that the new leadership of Ken and Missy will help the entire situation in the future!

Agreed with most of this. However, gonna have to disagree with it being focused on manufacturers like Savage and Ruger. If that were the case, the caps wouldn't have been raised that allowed places like MPA, GAP, etc to essentially build custom rifles under a production name.

Ruger and Savage rifles were already easily making the price caps before it was increased to the point where custom companies were allowed to enter.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

And to be honest, I think it actually hurts companies like Savage and Ruger more than it helps.

Why would someone go buy a Savage 110 Elite Precision when they can go buy a GAP or MPA for not much more and still be production legal? Their sales to PRS shooters is probably such a small % of their revenue that it's not worth caring though.



If I were Ruger or Savage, I wouldn't be thrilled with my actual production rifles competing for buyers against rifles with actual custom components that are just restricted to a set configuration and everyone winks and calls them production rifles.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I thought I mentioned it earlier, but I had this conversation with Shannon. His intent for Production was to engage the big pocketbook manufacturers. It was never his intent that Production be perceived as the beginner's division. But the division can't function with just Ruger and Savage, there needs to be other players.

In a perfect world I'm sure the PRS would love to see involvement/sponsorship from a functional Remington brand, as well as Beretta, Bergara, Tikka, etc.

That's fine. Remove the "intent" from the rules which basically say a production rifle limits a shooter. The point of any division is the same as a weight class in combat sports. You can't win open with a .308, which is why tac class "works." There's only been like two women and one junior who have won open division....so, technically those divisions "work" as far as performance. Same with gas gun.

And since it doesn't actually limit performance, there's no need to even have the division. Just let MPA, GAP, etc etc build $2500 rifles that they sell in only certain configurations and you're shooting open with them. As you're essentially shooting open when you sign up for production division. Which is obvious when you look at the shooters who are the top production shooters. Most of them were already top open shooters and are still placing high or winning open with a production rifle.


Every other division, you'll be competing against others who have a similarly low or zero chance of winning open. Production is the only class this isn't the case.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I dont know... semantics..

There are limitations to the class. It's "close" to Open, but it isn't. It's like the Almost As Good as Open class.

Honestly, the only difference for Tactical is caliber. It's an Open rifle of any weight or set up, restricted by caliber, bullet, and velocity. Matt Stiner shoots a 28lb 308 in Tac. It's God awful heavy to reduce recoil.

At the end of the day it's all just a game. And folks are going to due all they can within the confines of the rules to give themselves an opportunity to win. Production is just another route to shoot and have fun.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I couldn't really care less. This is just a discussion on a forum. Shoot whatever division you want and have a good time.

And that "only difference" in tac class is a huge one. You aint winning the match outright on points in a 2 day match with a .308. So that comparison is not a good one.

That would be like having a speed limit division in Nascar and saying "but they can have the same equipment, its only one difference." Yes it is, but its a huge one.

 

[ma smith]

That's fine. Remove the "intent" from the rules which basically say a production rifle limits a shooter.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If it wasn't for the big sponsors writing checks, we would all be paying way more or would be getting way less for our money. PRS has payroll ontop of all the other expenses. Membership and match fees probally doesn't even cover their expenses. Money from sponsors fills that gap and keeps the league from imploding.

It's such a small community people don't realize how few paying members there are. Without sponsors we would be looking at 500 dollar membership fees and probally higher match costs so prs can rake in more per shooter to cover it. Or they would have to strip away a bunch of stuff, social media, marketing, international efforts ect.

If current production rules allows this to happen, then so be it. Doesn't take away from the sport. It's not stopping new shooters from competing. If anything, it's telling novices they can shoot well with rack grade stuff. Then they show up and realize it's not the gear, it's the shooter.

 

[Rob01]

If it wasn't for the big sponsors writing checks, we would all be paying way more or would be getting way less for our money. PRS has payroll ontop of all the other expenses. Membership and match fees probally doesn't even cover their expenses. Money from sponsors fills that gap and keeps the league from imploding.

It's such a small community people don't realize how few paying members there are. Without sponsors we would be looking at 500 dollar membership fees and probally higher match costs so prs can rake in more per shooter to cover it. Or they would have to strip away a bunch of stuff, social media, marketing, international efforts ect.

If current production rules allows this to happen, then so be it. Doesn't take away from the sport. It's not stopping new shooters from competing. If anything, it's telling novices they can shoot well with rack grade stuff. Then they show up and realize it's not the gear, it's the shooter.

Sounds like the government. LOL We would be nowhere without them! Forget we shot matches for cheaper before they became a thing. 2-3 day matches were $150-175. Now we have to pay more to fund their payroll? LOL And who in the hell would pay $500 for a PRS membership?!?! That's some crazy shit right there. LOL If the PRS disappeared today there would still be matches and can find all the info on Practiscore and the MDs will keep more of their money. Maybe I am underestimating people's needs to collect points but if they really loved the sport it wouldn't matter.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

LOLOLOL. Starts off talking about how few paying members there are. Then tries to make a point that we need PRS to stay around. If there are so few paying members (which there are few, that is true), that means there's not a lot of people who actually care if PRS exists. We were shooting matches prior to PRS and will be shooting them after PRS.

What that actually means, is the less than 2,000 shooters who care about PRS (probably less that 500 who actually really care)....need the big name sponsors so this extremely tiny niche can continue to participate in the way they like matches to be run.


That's not taking anything away from PRS as an entity. But they definitely aren't holding all this stuff together. As evidenced with the very few paying members relative to the amount of people who shoot matches.

 

[AlwineArcher]

Have y’all ever shot NRL hunter?

 

[Haney]

LOLOLOL. Starts off talking about how few paying members there are. Then tries to make a point that we need PRS to stay around. If there are so few paying members (which there are few, that is true), that means there's not a lot of people who actually care if PRS exists. We were shooting matches prior to PRS and will be shooting them after PRS.

What that actually means, is the less than 2,000 shooters who care about PRS (probably less that 500 who actually really care)....need the big name sponsors so this extremely tiny niche can continue to participate in the way they like matches to be run.


That's not taking anything away from PRS as an entity. But they definitely aren't holding all this stuff together. As evidenced with the very few paying members relative to the amount of people who shoot matches.

 

[stanley_white]

It would be interesting to see a rule whereby if you get invited to the finally, and accept the invitation, you are also agreeing to shoot production the following year.

-Stan

 

[Mormegil87]

^^^
This. I've only been in the game for about 8 years but it's infinitely better than it was in 2016. We went from 10 or 11, two day matches to one almost every weekend of the year. The amount of local/regional matches has exploded and it's awesome.

As far as rules go, give Ken and crew some time. They've barely had this thing for a year. There's no one who has more passion for the game than Ken. I was fortunate enough to have a front row seat as he turned our little 20-30 person unorganized matches into one of, if not, the most well run clubs in the country with attendance in the 100+ range with a waitlist. I can't wait to see what he does with the Pro series over the next few years.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Like Rob up there, I shot some matches Pre-PRS, and they were great fun!

But the PRS brings something those matches never had, regional and national organization. The importance of which is absolutely huge. I've watched 3 Gun struggle to become bigger than the club level match for over a decade. They just can't seem to land on a national entity that will take them from a local sport competing for bragging rights, to a national one competing for trophies, cash, and prizes. 3 Gun Nation and USPSA Multi-Gun national rule sets all failed. If they could find a governing body as successful as the PRS, 3 Gun/2 Gun would explode.

For those of us who love the game, the PRS is a blessing. It's not perfect, growing pains have been difficult. But its finding its groove and beginning to operate more smoothly. Three and four years ago we voted on a dozen rule changes a year, trying to plug up recurring issues at matches. This year we voted on three or four, and didn't pass but a couple. The voting body is pretty unanimous in not wanting to create a biblical proportion sized rulebook like the USPSA. And I think 99% of what needs to be there is there. It's pretty close to its final form, and emphasis still exists on letting MDs have discretion on how to run their matches.

Mistakes and bad decisions made in the past, even the recent past, are far less likely today. People coming into this sport in 2024 are stepping into a pretty decent, well-structured, competitive organization.

I didn't mean to sound like I was bashing PRS, just the troll who keeps acting like he knows everything. I am glad they are here and have enjoyed doing things with them.

One thing to always keep in mind, regardless of how well something is or isn't run, is just that some things work and some things don't. For example, professional pool in the US has been managed very well (and also very poorly) over several decades and just can't get any bigger than it has. Just isn't something that the US population is going to take off with.

USPSA has something like 40k active members around the country, and as far as gun sports go, that's huge. But, it's still very small compared to most other games in the country.


PRS has a cap on how big it can get. So everyone needs to remember, this is likely only ever going to be a game/hobby. Treat it as such and have fun. All the "serious" shit people argue about is literally just arguing over a hobby.

You're never going to see a big mainstream name brand sponsor for anything in the gun industry, which is a big reason it has a cap.

 

[lash]

Those last three posts are solid.

As a small local MD who is truly not trying to be big, I appreciate that people come to my matches, even if that’s just so they can add to their regional PRS score.

Since I also used to shoot more before there was a PRS, I have to agree that it’s not the same. Some things just don’t translate as well to a format that accommodates multiple squads unless there is plenty of acreage and RSOs help to facilitate. By that, I mean some of the stages that are fun but take much more time per shooter or involve movement more than 6 feet or challenge your methods of solving a shooting task.

Technology has also changed things. Rangfinders, kestrels and ballistic apps make some of the old style stages difficult to run with any expectation of fairness between competitors.

That being said, there truly are more people wanting to get into long range or just be part of the game and that is a good thing.

 

[Mormegil87]

Those last three posts are solid.

As a small local MD who is truly not trying to be big, I appreciate that people come to my matches, even if that’s just so they can add to their regional PRS score.

Since I also used to shoot more before there was a PRS, I have to agree that it’s not the same. Some things just don’t translate as well to a format that accommodates multiple squads unless there is plenty of acreage and RSOs help to facilitate. By that, I mean some of the stages that are fun but take much more time per shooter or involve movement more than 6 feet or challenge your methods of solving a shooting task.

Technology has also changed things. Rangfinders, kestrels and ballistic apps make some of the old style stages difficult to run with any expectation of fairness between competitors.

That being said, there truly are more people wanting to get into long range or just be part of the game and that is a good thing.

The other part is a growing number, probably in the majority at this point; don't care about being tactical or practical in terms of how PRS translates to mil/LEO and hunting. Most guys are in it because it's a game and it's something to do on a Saturday or Saturday and Sunday.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The other part is a growing number, probably in the majority at this point; don't care about being tactical or practical in terms of how PRS translates to mil/LEO and hunting. Most guys are in it because it's a game and it's something to do on a Saturday or Saturday and Sunday.

Yep. Shooters have spoken. People want to put heavy rifles on props and shoot shit. And they want to make a lot of impacts relatively speaking. I've personally had match attendance drop by up to half with just the introduction of a stage per match that has the purpose of training/making you better. Like maybe no bag or limited gear or something else. People just didn't go for it.

I know of some regional matches where the winner only drops 5 or less shots sell out when capped at 80-100 shooters. But harder matches in the exact same geographical area get 35 shooters.

 

[lash]

Yep. Shooters have spoken. People want to put heavy rifles on props and shoot shit. And they want to make a lot of impacts relatively speaking. I've personally had match attendance drop by up to half with just the introduction of a stage per match that has the purpose of training/making you better. Like maybe no bag or limited gear or something else. People just didn't go for it.

I know of some regional matches where the winner only drops 5 or less shots sell out when capped at 80-100 shooters. But harder matches in the exact same geographical area get 35 shooters.

True story. Despite my personal preferences otherwise, I’ve had to drop unsupported stages and a couple other stage types that challenged critical thinking and technique.

The people that shoot my matches tell me that they like them, but my attendance is on that low end. Fortunately, that works for me, but if I were trying to boost attendance to maximize dollars, I’d have to make more changes.

 

[Rob01]

Those last three posts are solid.

As a small local MD who is truly not trying to be big, I appreciate that people come to my matches, even if that’s just so they can add to their regional PRS score.

Since I also used to shoot more before there was a PRS, I have to agree that it’s not the same. Some things just don’t translate as well to a format that accommodates multiple squads unless there is plenty of acreage and RSOs help to facilitate. By that, I mean some of the stages that are fun but take much more time per shooter or involve movement more than 6 feet or challenge your methods of solving a shooting task.

Technology has also changed things. Rangfinders, kestrels and ballistic apps make some of the old style stages difficult to run with any expectation of fairness between competitors.

That being said, there truly are more people wanting to get into long range or just be part of the game and that is a good thing.

I guess if points are your only reason to shoot a match the PRS is a good thing but why did you shoot matches before the PRS if you didn't get points?

Not the same doesn't mean better. Seriously though there were always squads and stages of fire like today. We shot off things and at steel and paper. You can drop the paper as it does take time but matches aren't much different. There were always matches that had different things due to their location like Rifles Only having the O course and helo but we were always shooting off props at steel. I don't think matches are much different in the stages but the equipment has morphed as mentioned.

And how does technology effect fairness or a stage? Everyone has the ability and tools to do anything they need to shoot a stage and if they don't they can borrow it in their squad. This is done now and everyone helps anyone needing it.

I agree there are more people wanting to shoot matches. And they want to have fun and hit steel and challenge themselves. The numbers have always been growing and it can be seen by this site.

As to harder meaning less attendance, doesn't that mean that you are dumbing down the match for people to feel good? Is just getting a lot of people to come and give you money the meaning of the sport now?


ETA I don't want you or anyone else to think I am totally against the PRS as an organization either but there does seem to be some cleaning up to be done and lets see if the new owners can do it. I am glad we have MDs like you guys.

And I am still a PRS member. #48 I'm getting a little long in the tooth but still enjoy matches even though I know I will not win. Points don't drive me. The fun and camaraderie does.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

As to harder meaning less attendance, doesn't that mean that you are dumbing down the match for people to feel good? Is just getting a lot of people to come and give you money the meaning of the sport now?

Of course it does. But there are different opinions and points of view and none are invalid.

Some MD's goals are to make better shooters. Some MD's goals are to provide for as many shooters as possible. And other MD's are motivated by attendance and money.


Who are any of us to judge if an MD makes meatball matches and 100 shooters show up. And another MD makes a tough match that is intended to make people better shooters and gets 35? Both are providing a service that shooters want.


Since you used RO as an example. If part of this wasn't about making money, the quarterly matches at Rifles Only would be free. They aren't losing any money on Sunday mornings as their facility is just sitting there when not used.

 

[Rob01]

Of course it does. But there are different opinions and points of view and none are invalid.

Some MD's goals are to make better shooters. Some MD's goals are to provide for as many shooters as possible. And other MD's are motivated by attendance and money.


Who are any of us to judge if an MD makes meatball matches and 100 shooters show up. And another MD makes a tough match that is intended to make people better shooters and gets 35? Both are providing a service that shooters want.


Since you used RO as an example. If part of this wasn't about making money, the quarterly matches at Rifles Only would be free. They aren't losing any money on Sunday mornings as their facility is just sitting there when not used.

But that we have people going to all types shows we have a lot of shooters wanting to shoot the sport which is great. Room for both. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

And I never said people shouldn't make money. Of course they should and that is the RO's business and they should charge. But when something happens like happened in the rimfire side where MDs are told they have to charge a certain amount of money for a two day match then that is taking it out of the MDs hands what they want to charge. I think MDs should have control of their matches.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

But that we have people going to all types shows we have a lot of shooters wanting to shoot the sport which is great. Room for both. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

And I never said people shouldn't make money. Of course they should and that is the RO's business and they should charge. But when something happens like happened in the rimfire side where MDs are told they have to charge a certain amount of money for a two day match then that is taking it out of the MDs hands what they want to charge. I think MDs should have control of their matches.

Agreed. I took a couple year sabbatical....so I hadn't heard about the rimfire thing. I'm kinda split on it. If it's the governing body, say PRS....if you want to be part of that organization then you need to conform to their requirements.

I can see several reason why they would want to either raise match fees or set a minimum fee. I can also see MD's wanting to have as much control as possible. Though I probably still side more with the governing body. As the MD always has the option to run a non sanctioned match.


Not long ago, we looked into starting a new league/governing body. Once we found out how PRS and NRL take almost zero money from match fees and other things......we shitcanned the idea. As that means your two sources of revenue are membership fees and sponsorship charges. So you're basically just a marketing agency who uses matches and your membership as the marketing too. Just not enough meat on the bone to be extremely profitable.

 

[Rob01]

Agreed. I took a couple year sabbatical....so I hadn't heard about the rimfire thing. I'm kinda split on it. If it's the governing body, say PRS....if you want to be part of that organization then you need to conform to their requirements.

I can see several reason why they would want to either raise match fees or set a minimum fee. I can also see MD's wanting to have as much control as possible. Though I probably still side more with the governing body. As the MD always has the option to run a non sanctioned match.


Not long ago, we looked into starting a new league/governing body. Once we found out how PRS and NRL take almost zero money from match fees and other things......we shitcanned the idea. As that means your two sources of revenue are membership fees and sponsorship charges. So you're basically just a marketing agency who uses matches and your membership as the marketing too. Just not enough meat on the bone to be extremely profitable.

As a shooter I think the MDs should have the last word on what they want to charge as only they know their time and overhead. If a MD want to be nice to their shooter base and charge a certain amount then if the PRS is not getting anything but a little cash for keeping track of scores then why would they care? Is it just up-charging to make it look like it's worth more? Just don't get why they would care.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

One thing I learned as a match director and as and continue to be a competitor. The fun of shooting steel is shooting steel. Because shooting dirt is pretty much pointless as dirt is already pretty much already dead. And DEAD is the key word. Making matches challenging is fine. It does a great job of thinning out the people who are not so good, leaving the best shooters plenty of time to continue to shoot those great scores. However, it will get awful lonely at the shooting line. When those really good shooters age out and they will, sure enough, the sport is DEAD.

Problem, is, if it is made too easy, it looses its relevance. When missing is almost impossible, it is no more fun than never hitting anything.

The obvious answer is to have various stages, some hard, some easy, some very hard and some very easy. Serves all purposes. Helps the newbies actually enjoy themselves and provides the challenge that the better shooters really need. Its ok to have easy stages, and its ok to have really tough stages.

However, if the matches don't cater to all levels of shooters, eventually you are going to kill your base and without the base of new shooters coming it, the best shooters will not be numerous enough to continue to support the sport.

This is very un-popular with the really fine marksmen. But again, it's the base that makes the sport.

 

[Ronws]

Here is a production rifle with store-bought ammo doing quite well because shooter is good.