That's the problem as the "cheapo" scope limit is $2500 and the "factory" gun limit is $3000. Raised to help sponsors yearly. Shit my open rifles don't wear $2500 scopes! LOL Production will be a joke until they fix it back to what it was meant to be in the beginning.
Newbie Asks: Why do you say the Production (Rifle) Division is a Joke?
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That's the problem as the "cheapo" scope limit is $2500 and the "factory" gun limit is $3000. Raised to help sponsors yearly. Shit my open rifles don't wear $2500 scopes! LOL Production will be a joke until they fix it back to what it was meant to be in the beginning.
ok fair I don't know the recent rules, I'm just now getting back into the sport, my only prs match this year was a recent 22 prs match.
my scope cost me 400$ on Amazon so I reckon it counts as cheap.
2500 as msrp is too high for prod div, maybe half that.
don't get me wrong, I have some nice toys too, but I like a variety and I like the thought of a real cheapo class.
power to the poors.
I Tend to agree. For a good while I thought that production allowed people with limited budgets to get a pretty darned good rifle for far less than a really nice rifle. But as the prices creep up, the cost of a production is bouncing hard on the cost of just going on and building the rifle you really want. Further, the production class has just boiled down to having pros shoot your rifles for advertisement purposes for the manufacturers. At present, the production rifle I own is no longer a production rifle, and the last rifle I had built, I just went on and got what I really wanted and it is WAY beyond the price of a production .22lr.
So, it’s time to revamp production or just do away with it and save the match directors a bit of money the trophy cost.
Heck, if we were going to all get selfish about it, I say we need a class for super seniors, 75 years and above. Then i could get a trophy Like I Really Deserve A Trophy considering the way I shoot. Or perhaps the Laterne Rouge trophy, which I deserve and would be a general trophy that goes to at least one person, man, women, junior or senior at every match.
I agree that there’s a big difference between so-called seniors of 55 and those 70 and above. I see it and even am feeling it myself.
At 53, I am a great deal more capable than my father at 78.
I am 60 and I just mowed the lawn. that is my exercise for the week.
To answer your question the entire package needs to be a lot less expensive.
After a fellow gets a rifle at three thousand dollars and a two thousand-five hundred dollar scope and puts rings and a bipod on it, he’s looking at a rig that is easily in the 6,500 to 7000 dollar range.
Production is considered a rifle for someone who walks up to the range with a run-what-brung rifle, or a “budget” rifle. A rifle a beginner or a person with limited budget can shoot. Who do you know that owns a $6000+ rifle just lying around that he wants to try PRS with?
The current thinking is that a rifle that costs as much as a current production rifle is hardly a beginner or budget rifle. Even in todays biden inflationary economy, the cost of a true production or beginner’s rifle (or both) needs to be a WHOLE LOT Less Expensive. Even $2500 for scope and rifle combined is pushing it but doable with an RPR and a third tier scope.
It has become a class for people who want to try to sneak in for a trophy, or for major pros who work for a company that wants their products to do well. Example, Ruger took the RPR and completely revamped it, pushed the price up almost a grand for Doug Koenig to shoot. His son does not even use that make of rifle.
Production Division was intended from the beginning to help manufacturers sell product, and it does that nicely. As such it’s unlikely to change.
Unfortunately I don’t think there will ever be a real “novice” division in the PRS, nor one that promotes the idea of competing with budget priced equipment.
The game is just too small in terms of participation, and too expensive.
Compared to the cost of travel, match fees, and ammunition (especially if a guy practices much), a $6000 rifle is a small portion of what many spend in a season.
Unfortunately I don’t think there will ever be a real “novice” division in the PRS, nor one that promotes the idea of competing with budget priced equipment.
The game is just too small in terms of participation, and too expensive.
Compared to the cost of travel, match fees, and ammunition (especially if a guy practices much), a $6000 rifle is a small portion of what many spend in a season.
I agree with everything you said except it being too small. Very few shooting sports are nearly as large. Even CBA in its heyday did not have the participation that PRS has. Never into the Cowboy competitions, too easy about as much of a challenge as hittin water with your main between leg appendage when sitting on the commode, but they had matches at other parts of the ranges when we had matches.
Howard Prince Memorial nearly sold out their Spring Match. When I had to drop out they had people waiting to get in, my slot went to a young lady who wanted to shoot with her uncle. That’s a whole lot more shooters, than any CBA match I ever saw. And we are not even going to mention IHMSA. Their International World Championship this year did not draw as many shooters as the match at Prince.
Yep, in my mind, Precision Rifle is doing just fine with plenty of participation. My worry hope and I truly plan to live long enough to see PRS Not burn out like so many shooting sports and other sports tend to do.
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Lol but then the PRS is talking out of 2 sides of their mouth.
No it wasn't. It was to allow new shooters into the sport without them having to spend a lot and compete against similar people. The sponsor sales came later and ruined the first part.
And a $6000 rifle is a lot to someone starting the sport. They might not be traveling and shooting 2 day pro matches and shooting 1000 rounds a month. They want to get into the sport and have some fun but now they are going against sand baggers with $6000 rifles and that is not something that will help them get any sort of confidence.
I take expectation to that remark, when you come up with a cure making one young again, let me know, I’ll be the first standing in line to take that jab.
(And I am one of the extremely lucky ones, cycling, shooting, sailing, mowing the lawn wheneverI want, woodworking and having the time of my life at 75, but still it’s telling.)
That’s what I said but I was also trying to be nice to the other fellow.
I tend to worry about the sports longevity considering the costs. People railed against the cost of IHMSA handguns, and CBA with two customized handguns, a reworked rifle, and a reworked pump shotgun, plus requisite clothing that was OUTRAGEOUS in cost, plus the leather work, plus the carrier for all those firearms, it empties a wallet quickly.
Somehow, someway, we need a Precision Rifle Lite.
One might think that .22lr might be the answer. I love seeing fellows shooting RPRR’s and Begara B14r’s in matches and shooting well and placing near the top. However, top tier .22’s are as expensive as any custom. (Guilty as charged your honor, my .22 is the most expensive rifle I have ever owned.). Robert Brantley ( @RobertB ). Is shooting a .308 in the 16 pound weight bracket this year. It’s a start but not sure how much money is being saved.
Writing this I tend to feel crappy. It’s easy to say we need something. It’s a lot harder to say how we can get it.
Cut the alcohol and smoking, take your daily NAC and Glycine, throw in a non-flushing Niacin/B3, add some Taurine at dinner time, wait 10 months of this daily routine, watch your friends get older while you stay the same.
While I agree that having a scores-based class structure would be nice... well, ok... I don't think it would fly for a few reasons:
- It's more administrative overhead for MDs to deal with.
- God help us if cash purses become part of PRS-style matches. Dealing with the $$ payouts in skeet is a relative PAIN IN THE backside. "Sandbagging" has been a perpetual problem in NSSA skeet - cheating assholes intentionally drop targets in little shoots or targets-only events to keep their class low. For the most part, though, class purses are so low that they may not even pay the entry fee for that gauge unless (a) it's a 150+-entrant shoot or (b) it's a sponsored/added-money event.
- Realistically, in NSSA skeet - a vastly easier and more tedious competition compared to Olympic skeet, in which USA just took gold and silver - class winners score perfect or near-perfect scores anyway. Once upon a time, in my early days, I shot a 99 in B-class. There were 11 of us in B-class that day. Six of us shot 99s. In my years of NSSA skeet, I don't recall ANYONE winning a lower-class purse unless they shot way above that class.
Absolutely, as long as I can park my arthritic backside behind a nice bench (preferably covered). Or five-minute par times, no body-folding rifle-yoga positions allowed.@DownhillFromHere you seeing this? LOL You can take on any 55 year old!
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"My mind is still flexible / But these brittle bones don't bend..." - Jimmy Buffet
Oh, I remember how it was sold to shooters, and am aware of what the rulebook says, as @Covertnoob5 posted. And yeah, I'm basically saying the the PRS is saying one thing and doing another.
I supposed I should've added the disclaimer "In my opinion, which is based on the actions of the PRS and not what it says the division is about, Production Division is about helping manufacturers sell product."
Some examples of those actions would be what happened with Keonig & Alwine a few years back at the finale (a decision made clearly to please a paying sponsor), and the constant revision of the price caps upward to help certain manufacturers release ever more upgraded and expensive "production" rifles built in their in-house custom shops (MPA, Ruger, GAP, etc).
PRS may say Production Division is intended to be an entry point for new shooters, but the decisions made by those who run the series have repeatedly gone in the opposite direction.
Even as a relatively heavy spending participant, expense in $$$$ and especially time is getting exhausting. I’m an intense hyper focused long term kind of guy, and I’m losing enthusiasm for the resource drain it takes from the rest of my life. Normal people are long gone by now.
Some really good points. I remember shooting a 98 or 99 in A class and losing to four guys who shot 100. Meanwhile my friend would shoot an 88 in C class and win $250 which covered his entry fee and gas money.
I am speaking of the beginning of PRS and not what the last 4 or 5 owners have done. I shot matches with the guys who started the PRS and know about the thought process of production and it's not what it has become. Yes it has become that what you mention and I think is BS but I was just correcting you that that is not how it was intended or was at the beginning.
I quit shooting NSSA skeet years ago... but "back in the day" I would have been astounded to see an 88 win C-class, even in .410, at a big/added-money shoot (which is the only way there's going to be a $250 class payout). For comparison, I shot a 98 in .410 at the 1999 Masters shoot in Savannah (~350 entries). A 98 might do something in .410 at a small shoot, even a gun championship. At the Masters, I got a little medal - for 8th place. In A-class. Plenty of 100s, in .410, in A, AA, and AAA. (At skeet target distance, a 1-ounce 12-gauge pattern is ~27 inches. A .410 1/2-ounce target load is ~18 inches.)
Tying this back to the discussion of Production class: At least in skeet, someone entering an NSSA competition with a properly-fitting Browning isn't going to give up much gear-wise to someone shooting a $15,000 tubed Krieghoff with a 12-gauge carrier barrel.
And, in either discipline, the top shooters with entry level gear will handily stomp lesser shooters with the best gear available.
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Don’t smoke or drink, feeding two 6GT’s and a Vudoo and they like the high priced spread. And have you seen the price of cigarettes lately? A two pack a day habit would all but equal the upkeep of a couple Gulf Jetstreams. Never heard of the other stuff.
Back to the subject at hand, I think coaching for the beginners, with a limit based on scores. (Say 50% score or better twice, or five matches with a coach). Also, a realistic limit on rifles. The .22lr rules are far more realistic but could use some tweaking. My thought that I stated earlier is $2500 for total package. It’s doable but darned hard to do. (Think standard RPR with a scope costing less than a grand).
However, Let’s just say, production is a wash, and move on, cause Its not gonna be easy to fix.
New class, “Limited.” Rules, steel barrel, weight, max 13 pounds all up, ready to shoot including scope, rings, bipod. Max power on scope 18x. Call it the Lucky Thirteen Class.
Lucky 13, hard to beleive they still make it. It was an old design when I first started bass fishing in 1957 (never caught a fish with one either, not so lucky I suppose)
my worthless opinion because I like prs and want it to succeed, reduce the optic msrp to 1k, and the rifle msrp to 1800
I know 1k is a usable scope price range because I snagged a vortex venom for 400$ new. Chinese stuff is getting better every year it seems.
1800 rifle msrp will get you a ruger rpr or CZ 457 mtr in mdt chassis.
I know 1k is a usable scope price range because I snagged a vortex venom for 400$ new. Chinese stuff is getting better every year it seems.
1800 rifle msrp will get you a ruger rpr or CZ 457 mtr in mdt chassis.
So why not change the name and call it the Chinese Optic division.
Might as well encourage Chinese R&D in weapons related systems ahead of any war with the Chinese
Using any kind of price to classify equipment is grossly retarded.
There is a reason NO shooting sport outside PRS uses that metric for anything.
STOP using prices to define what belongs in Production division.
Such an utterly stupid idea....
As usual, the guy who’s never shot the sport knows everything that’s wrong with it.
The other thing to keep in mind is the gear is much more tailored to the courses of fire we shoot. Smaller targets, more movement, faster time makes cheap/off the rack rifles that were more comparable to custom guns of 20 years ago, so far from what the typical match shooter shoots, its hard to make up that difference.
Want to shoot production. Buy a MPA Matrix production rifle. Buy a Leupold Mark 5 or similar. Now spent $5K guccing the rifle and gear out.
You have a rifle that is pretty much indistinguishable from a $7500 custom rifle setup. Extra points when said factory/production shooter works for the manufacture and I am sure......is not able to cherry pick things like barrels or even have completely custom barrels profiled and cut to the production specs, with markings and everything.....
Or like a few years ago. A guy shooting a rifle that you couldn't even buy (probably less than 10 even made at the time) got beat buy a guy shooting a production rifle from a small custom manufacture, who didnt happen to Spend $50K+ with the PRS and be a title sponsor......has the PRS DQ the winner due to some bullshit technicality and the guy shooting for the big name sponsor shooting a gun that you cant even buy, gets the win.
Production class is about money. That is it.
It is now for sure.
Targets aren’t any smaller now than they were and there is actually less movement now compared to back then too. It’s definitely different but not harder.
Targets aren’t any smaller now than they were and there is actually less movement now compared to back then too. It’s definitely different but not harder.
So go on and keep doubling down on stupid.
Smart people learn from the experiences of the others. Idiots ignore them and think they've figured it all out.
This is about to get out of hand. Everyone, go back and look at my idea.
However, one word about “production.” I’ve seen people squabbling over, complaining about, crying in their beer, pissin all over the ground about production firearms. There are two ways to classify firearms outside of caliber of round shot, and speed of bullet. One is a box rule. If it fits into a predefined box, which the interior is in the shape of a rifle having the perimeters desired. Or, put a limit on weight. Weight works great. Weigh that sucker, and if it weighs too much, can’t shoot. As black and white as can be under the Lords’s sun.
Or, combine the two.
However, I believe weight combined with certain elements (such as a steel barrel, no carbon fiber wrap or carbon fiber components) will fit your needs. Especailly if the weight is not excessive. Under 12 or under 13 pounds. Other limits can be imposed if desired such as max power of the scope, caliber restrictions (as in minimum power factor).
All the ideas mentioned in the above paragraph have been used, many successfully in other centerfire shooting sports. If the powers that be, really want to fix an unfixable system, to my thinking, weight is the only way to go.
However, one word about “production.” I’ve seen people squabbling over, complaining about, crying in their beer, pissin all over the ground about production firearms. There are two ways to classify firearms outside of caliber of round shot, and speed of bullet. One is a box rule. If it fits into a predefined box, which the interior is in the shape of a rifle having the perimeters desired. Or, put a limit on weight. Weight works great. Weigh that sucker, and if it weighs too much, can’t shoot. As black and white as can be under the Lords’s sun.
Or, combine the two.
However, I believe weight combined with certain elements (such as a steel barrel, no carbon fiber wrap or carbon fiber components) will fit your needs. Especailly if the weight is not excessive. Under 12 or under 13 pounds. Other limits can be imposed if desired such as max power of the scope, caliber restrictions (as in minimum power factor).
All the ideas mentioned in the above paragraph have been used, many successfully in other centerfire shooting sports. If the powers that be, really want to fix an unfixable system, to my thinking, weight is the only way to go.
If someone wants to handicap themselves with a carbon wrapped insulated barrel, let them.
I think a weight limit on factory guns makes a helluva lot more sense than a price cap equal to customs. Give the HMR’s and CTR’s a place to compete.
I think a weight limit on factory guns makes a helluva lot more sense than a price cap equal to customs. Give the HMR’s and CTR’s a place to compete.
This is just chasing a moving target outside of the sport's (and shooter's) control and a characteristic that has nothing to do with performance.
Just like MSRP.
@Dead Eye Dick has the right idea.
Depends on what you mean. The average target size may have been bumped slightly higher recently, but the small targets are only getting smaller.
I see more matches moving toward a "separator" model rather than an all out ball buster to keep the mid pack attendance healthy. That means the targets where you can gain ground on the field are smaller, but there are more meaty targets out there for mid and lower pack. Does that make the matches easier or harder? Depends on where you land in the lineup. They're harder to be in the top 5, but easier in the sense that your hit percentage will likely be higher.
Use Clay's match as an example. 2023 had pretty much .4 targets across the board in 15-30 mph winds. 2024 had more big-small target engagements. "Easier" match, but it was just as difficult to make the top 10 if not moreso.
This makes more sense than any other model I have seen (or shot at). Reminds me of the Altus Outlaw matches of recent.
You can’t keep a sport healthy by catering only to the “elite.” (The donks will get tired of killing dirt and find some other sand pile to play in) And there’s no interest or challenge or reason for the good shooters to stick around if they score a clean match every week (what is the point ).
Make it hard for the cool kids and give us donks something we can shoot at. Fun for all.
That's not true at all. The old skills stage with a 2 MOA target at 600 used to be a difficult target. Now a 2 MOA target is a meatball.
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