Rifle Scopes Nightforce focus woes

johnl

johnl

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 11, 2006
190
55
Wet Coast
#1
Hey Guys

I have a NSX 5.5-22 50mm. At full power when I adjust the paralax, the cross hairs are steady but the image is slightly out of focus. I tried to adjust it using the manual, ie set power to max, and paralax to infinity unlock ring, turn ocular in and out at a blue sky etc, etc, etc. But I can't get a crisp image of the target unless the paralax is slightly off. Any ideas? BTW I looked through a Hensoldt 5-24 by 72mm yesterday, wow wow wow. But fuck fuck fuck at the price. Any ideas on the Nightforce? Thanks
 
#2
Re: Nightforce focus woes

When I had NXS scopes I experienced the same thing both with mine and other NXS scopes that I had a good look through. At the time I was not sure if it was my eyes, however I have not had the same issue with either S&B or USO.
 
#3
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Sounds like you are confusing two separate operations. You set the reticle so that it is crisp using the rear occular and looking at a light surface but only looking at it for a second or two at a time as your eye will adjust. Once that is done you lock that occular down and don't touch it again. Then when shooting at a target you use the parallax knob which will give you the clear target picture. Also if there is any mirage it might mess with that target view making it look a little out of focus.
 
#4
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Hey Rob01, I'm not confusing the two operations. Did what you said, make reticle crisp, lock the focus ring. Now get on target and adjust the parallax knob until the target is crisp. Now I move my head up and down. Yep reticle moves a little. Turn parallax just a bit until reticle is rock steady, Yep target is still slightly out of focus. Happen with factory setting, re-read the instructions, reset the focus at the sky, the white wall, and even a cow in the field thats a km away, still the same result. WTF, BTW if the scope is set between 5.5 to 10 power ( after is set the focus), the effect is not so noticeable. Worst from about 18 to max ie, 22x Maybe I should start saving for the Zeiss.
 
#8
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Hi
I have NF and I am also not very happy with the optics. It is difficult to explain but I can't see sharp target and reticle at the same time (well, part of the reticle is black and part of it looks gray). I have done all adjusting procedures and I am still not satisfied with results. Nothing to comapre with my USO or even IOR.
Regards,
Jurek
 
#9
Re: Nightforce focus woes

i have the same problem, on my NXS 5.5X22X56, seems like when i am @ 15 to 22 power it gets a 'lil' out of focus, but i take it as a mirage, seems to be clearer when its cooler out and no heat waves... i also have a NXS 3.5X15X56 no probs with it, thats why i was thinking it is the higher power, but it sure could be the scope.
 
#10
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Damn, I thought all this time it was just my crappy vision !! lol

At least now I have an excuse!! "Scopes fault" I'm gonna see if Jacob and Frank will buy into that!!!
 
#11
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I think this topic - when discussed in the past seems to form 2 camps 1. either you are setting it up wrong dude or 2. I'm having / had the same issue.

The point is it seems not to be just the OP who experiences this. The topic has also been discussed on other forums as well. As I posted above I have experienced the same issue with the NXS model I had (12-42x56) and about 6 others I had time with (to set up and use). Side by side, looking at the same targets with a S&B PMII 5-25x56, and USO sn3 3.8-22x44 and USO sn9 10-42x80 did not occur with any of these scopes. I set them all up in the same way.

On BRC at least one of the big names have said that with the depth of field of the scopes being so good these days when setting the occular for a crisp image of the reticule then you end up with a 'range' of when the ocular seems in focus rather than a point of best focus. You may be off. Not sure how much of it I buy as I have never had to worry about it with S%B and USO scopes.
 
#13
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I have a similar issue. Setting Diopter on a NF is a bitch. It's totally unforgiving. Unlike just about every scope I have. Best is the rapid focus on the USO.

Personally I think it might be WAY less apparent on other scopes because the reticles don't subtend as fine as the damn NF. They have REALLY fine reticles.

Anyways, it only really seems to be a problem when the target distance is short and the magnification is high. When I'm at 100-200yds and dial it up to 22x, it's almost impossible for me to get the reticle and background in focus. Parallax itself seems reduced to nothing with even gross adjustments. It's almost as if the side parallax knob is more of a focus adjustment than a parallax adjustment. If I move out to 300yds or more, it seems to all come into focus without a lot of fiddling with the knob, even at high mag.

I just take this as an artifact of how the NF scopes are designed. They really are very sharp when you shoot at greater distances. Heck, mine has already done double duty as a spotter.

Oh yeah, and it doesn't help that the NF requires you to turn the entire occular in order to adjust power. I've accidentally changed the diopter because of that. (Now I've got the lock ring really F-ing tight.)
 
#14
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I haven't encountered the problem with my NXS 5.5-22x50 as described by the OP and some others in this thread, but I don't shoot at 100 yards @ 22X magnification either.

It seems to me that the problem is mirage if it gets worse with higher ambient temperatures and higher magnification.


Perhaps comparing the NXS with USO and S&B isn't quite fair considering that both of these scopes cost approximately 2X the price of the NXS when optioned similarly.


Shouldn't a call to NF in Idaho have been in order before creating a thread on the subject? You've elicited lots of opinions but few stone cold facts. And you already know what opinions are like ............ Including mine
wink.gif
 
#15
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">check to make sure there is not excessive operator headspace</div></div>


....perzackly............
 
#16
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">check to make sure there is not excessive operator headspace</div></div>


....perzackly............ </div></div>


got some extra lightly buttered ??
 
#17
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I'm sorry I asked you Americans your opinions. Some of you keep the the negative stereotype alive that most of the world thinks of you. To the other good and helpful yanks, I guess you can't choose your fellow citizens. geez
 
#18
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I think it may have to do with eyes. johnl, do you have prescription glasses?

I ask because I do, and when the script needs updating I have the same problem.

I love the way folks act like parallax and focus are the same thing. I've had high dollar scopes that when the sight picture was crisp and clear bad parallax was present.

I really think its my eyeballs. I can see fine close and need glasses far, so when the diopter is set for the reticle with my specs, that is a near image, leaving the far image (the target picture, though magnified is still a far image to your eyeballs) a bit fuzzy when the mechanical optics (parallax adjustment focusing the magnified image at the right spot on the reticle image) are where they should be.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Perhaps it can be verified by someone that understands the image engineering better than myself.

USO's response to this same complaint a friend of mine had on his TPal was to tweak the diopter. When that didn't do it, he sent it in and they replaced it with an Ergo objective.
 
#20
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Interesting, Sobrbiker. I actually think you're dead on. I also have glasses, I'm near sighted and I need to update my prescription. This might be why the NF has that issue for me. Both my USO's have Ergo objectives and seem to be purely for parallax adjustment except at very close distances. Something about the way those elements are setup is way easier on my eyes.

I don't know why, but the NF seems to adjust focus way more than other scopes with the side parallax knob. I don't see lots of movement in the reticle if I move my head as long as I make a quick/coarse adjustment to the knob. On the other hand, it seems that my leupold scopes are always in focus at all distances and the parallax knob needs to be fiddled with a bunch to reduce parallax.

I think that each company designs the way their optical elements work together in order to meet different criteria that they feel is more important.
 
#21
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dude....either you are not splaining things.....wait.......


is this mounted on a rifle or are you hand-jobbing it ? </div></div>

We need more info.
 
#22
Re: Nightforce focus woes

The stated rule for the occular ajustment is to set reticle focus at infinity. Correct parallax puts the image plane in line with the reticle for the occular to focus on. All agree.

The virual image and correct parallax setting should put the same in equal focus? The reticle to occular is set to infinity to try to remain in constant focus on the adjusted image plane. Same as infinity image settings in fixed powered scopes with no parallax.

Another thing is eye relief with the image through the occular will distort either plane depending what your focusing on. Back away from full sight picture and observe the image with correct infinity focus on the occular/reticle. I bet the reticle looks super nice in limited FOV. The optic is decreasing the eye relief and image or pupil diameter with increased magnification. The virual combined image presented to your eye has lost resolution. You also may have adjusted your position closer to retain full FOV. With full FOV you adj for parallax, accept the field image and mirage at distance but not the 2FP reticle crispness.

From a previous post; my 4-14 leupold is also way more forgiving in parallax, the image is also closer to the occular lens vs 5.5-22 NF. I also think the courseness of adjustment in image is a factor of placement along the optic planes?

I'm not a optics guy but thinking out of my ass. I've witnessed the same accounts, tried to adjust it out. and chalked it up to the animal.
 
#23
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I do have the same problem with my NightForce scope 5.5-22x50 NXS, and now I’m thinking of getting an IOR scope. I did looked through an IOR scope and what a difference. The glass is so much clear than my Nightforce.

Cristian.
 
#24
Re: Nightforce focus woes

ive got a few nightforce and the focus is hard to set ,the best way ive found is to use a sheet of newspaper or a sign, something with plently of lines on to focus at,its near impossible to use the sky or a light object.
Set the sign up at 100m , lock the rifle up in a gun vise for ease, turn to max power ,now look through the scope but not in the middle try to look throgh the bottom corner where there is no reticule, do not at this point look at the reticle, now use the parrallel turret on the left of the scope to focus the image , you should be able to read the text nice and clear the reticule will be blurred if you have looked at it , now unlock the rear foucus ring, turn eye piece anti clockwise until you have 1/2 inch of thread showing, now like said before look thogh scope no longer than 2 sec ,reticule still blurred give it one full turn clock wise look again , , repeat , count the turns , all the way till it stops, now you will probably have to do this 3 times , it will take 10-15 mins this does work , key is to take your time several coffee breaks and remember not to force focus your eye
 
#25
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry I asked you Americans your opinions. Some of you keep the the negative stereotype alive that most of the world thinks of you. To the other good and helpful yanks, I guess you can't choose your fellow citizens. geez </div></div>

LMAO!

We may be arrogant, but it comes from years of being able to adjust our scopes correctly.
 
#26
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler1833</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

LMAO!

We may be arrogant, but it comes from years of being able to adjust our scopes correctly. </div></div>

One disappointing fact about our forum is that most of the top of the line products have recognized issues that are rarely given the light of day. I for one have had a few items that I researched and wanted for years only to finally acquire and realize that there were glitches that many owners had experienced yet none opened their mouth about. If I dropped $1500 on a NF and then learned they can be a bitch to focus (even if only for folks with glasses or otherwise) I'd be pissed to find it was "normal" for the scopes.

The primary purpose is to share information for the "serious tactical marksman", not to beat our chest and berate those that ask questions.

There are no stupid equipment questions, save the unasked ones. I'm glad we don't give responses like that to inquiries when it comes to reloading or trigger adjustment.

Do you even own a NF NXS? If not STFU, if so share your experience in a way that doesn't sound like knee jerk reaction to world politics.

 
#29
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Seems like people attach their personal identity to stuff sometimes, like if you question Nightforce or Leupold or their other favorite manufacturer you are insulting their mother. Wierd.
Ive noticed that thankfully there are many people here who will help you out if you have a problem, and remember to have a thick skin. After all, this isnt a tea party.
 
#30
Re: Nightforce focus woes

That's a big part of it I think.

The bottom line is on every forum, there are certain products or companies you don't dare say anything negative about, even luke warm comments can get you crucified.

That and I think at some point you have to accept that every product no matter how expensive, no matter how hand made or how long you waited is never perfect. It may be the best fit for your needs but there are always things it could do better, faster, lighter etc.

That said I do think the NF diopter adjustment is way way too fine. You can turn that thing 5 revolutions and barely notice any change. A few months ago when I was frustrated with mine I'm pretty sure my right forearm was bigger just from turning the adjustment
smile.gif


Another issue is the human eye itself, we can focus over a HUGE range. You can take a spotting scope relax your eyes, defocus the image and if you stress your eyes you can focus it again. I think this is one of the biggest reasons that fine focus/diopter adjustments are frustrating. You can probably be 10-20% either way from "ideal" and your eyes can easily compensate for the rest to make the image LOOK in focus. So then you come back or make an adjustment and it still looks in focus or, you relax your eyes more and it now is out of focus. The speed the human eye can focus is an issue as well, the background might be a touch out of focus but your eye adjusts so fast between the reticule and the background it looks fine.

I always thought it would be an interesting test to use a camera through the scope to try and set diopter focus adjustment. Set the parallax so it's good, then use the camera to focus on the reticule and take multiple images as the diopter is adjusted until the background/target is in as good of focus as possible.

Of course that assumes you have 20/20 or glasses/contacts that get you there.

I also think that while the internet is a great source of info in some cases it creates more problems than it solves. Cameras are a great example of this. A guy can buy a $4000 camera or lens and be totally happy with it, but the instant someone else posts that their camera isn't doing this quite right, or this lens isn't focusing as crisp as they think it should 5000 other people that WERE totally happy with their setup all of a sudden are horrified and upset that their expensive gear now doesn't perform.
 
#31
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like people attach their personal identity to stuff sometimes, like if you question Nightforce or Leupold or their other favorite manufacturer you are insulting their mother. Wierd.</div></div>

Large financial investments contribute to this.
 
#32
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I hate to admit it but...This is a big part of why my NXS went bye, bye. I saved, hoped, prayed, begged, borrowed and stole so I could get my hands on a NF. When it got here I was very impressed by the construction, durability and glass. However, the glass wasn't that much better than the many leupolds I'd put my hands on and frankly the illuminated reticle was such a pain in the arse that after trying to use it on a coule of occasions I stopped messing with it. I still haven't figured out how the hell you are supposed to adjust it in the dark. When you actually need it. Why they couldn't make the adjustment external I don't know. The same with the focus...I am very slighty near sighted, so little that sometimes I don't wear contacts and some times I do. After trying to adjust the focus without contacts and then going back to contacts, I gave up and went back to a much, much simpler leupold. For the price of the scope there are some huge flaws, in my humble opinion. I can barely justify the leupy but next time I think I'll save for a S&B.
 
#33
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I think this thread has been very helpful, I was thinking of buying a NightForce Scope and now I will check to see if my eyes can focus with one before I buy one. Thanks!
 
#34
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I have several NF's including one that I bought used - at a deep discount - from someone describing these kinds of problems. A few minutes of adjusting and it was good to go.

For those with "problems" try this alternate method of set-up - and this is a second choice option if the typical method does not work for you.

Wear whatever glasses you will wear while shooting including protective eyewear even if you do not wear prescription eyeglasses.

Set up a printed target with writing on it, or a newspaper, at 100 yards. Turn the scope to max power. Focus the left side knob so that the image is clear and you can read the writing. Then while your eye remains focused on the writing, then adjust the eyepiece until the reticle is crisp. As you adjust the eyepiece, refocus the left knob to keep the writing crisp. Once the reticle and writing are both crisp, look away and let your eyes relax. Double check and re-adjust as needed. Then lock the lock-ring on the eyepiece. Do not adjust the eyepiece after that, use only the left focus knob. Hope that helps.
 
#35
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Are you guys wearing contacts? I had a weird problem with seeing my reticle and target in focus at the same time with my 5.5-22x50 but when I changed contacts it went away. I asked a family friend that is an eye doctor and he said it could have something to do with having an astigmatism but who knows.
 
#36
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Most of the negative comments are coming from those with low post counts. </div></div>

Because posting more means you have more experience? Please........
We have a running joke about the low online presence of the majority of the people that are at our local precision rifle matches month in and month out.
Post count doesn't mean shit.

Thanks for sharing your input on your preferred method of setting you NF up though, definately sounds like a good way to do it, I'd just warn against trusting your eye's focus while on the scope long. Perhaps get the newsprint clear, look at the ground next to your rifle for a minute or so and looks at the newsprint again and see if reticle is sharp while first focusing on the newsprint. As stated above, the human eye will try to compensate for anything out of focus automatically.
 
#38
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I have 3 NXS's and 1 BR 12x42 , I am slightly near sighted , with an astigmatism, and 50 years old eyes 20-15 vision. I am able to see every spec on a target at 1,000 with no mirage. Yes they are tricky, no you cannot stare through them for more than a couple seconds while focusing. Luckily my optometrist encourages you to bring your rifle ( last appointment)and set up in the lab , and focus up for to two blocks while he tries different lenses. I found out I had the wrong axis on my shooting glasses. Once set up I could read fine print two blocks away on a dumpster. Dr wong has a number of white papers on shooters vision that will help you be a better shooter.
 
#39
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Most of the negative comments are coming from those with low post counts. </div></div>

Because posting more means you have more experience? Please........
We have a running joke about the low online presence of the majority of the people that are at our local precision rifle matches month in and month out.
Post count doesn't mean shit.

Thanks for sharing your input on your preferred method of setting you NF up though, definately sounds like a good way to do it, I'd just warn against trusting your eye's focus while on the scope long. Perhaps get the newsprint clear, look at the ground next to your rifle for a minute or so and looks at the newsprint again and see if reticle is sharp while first focusing on the newsprint. As stated above, the human eye will try to compensate for anything out of focus automatically. </div></div>

You're right about the post count, and I came back to edit that out. It was incorrect, and impolite. My apologies if anyone was offended. I do wonder if one or more of these posts have other motives though. The method I provided was a second choice as I noted, for those who were having problems with the usual method of setup.
 
#40
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Or pretty much any other forum out there...

I have owned a couple of NXSs and don't see what the fuss is all about. I liked my IOR better.
laugh.gif
 
#41
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Set up a printed target with writing on it, or a newspaper, at 100 yards. Turn the scope to max power. Focus the left side knob so that the image is clear and you can read the writing. Then while your eye remains focused on the writing, then adjust the eyepiece until the reticle is crisp. As you adjust the eyepiece, refocus the left knob to keep the writing crisp. Once the reticle and writing are both crisp, look away and let your eyes relax. Double check and re-adjust as needed. Then lock the lock-ring on the eyepiece. Do not adjust the eyepiece after that, use only the left focus knob. Hope that helps. </div></div>

The only potential problem with this method is that it does not make the parallax adjustment it's priority, it's only goal is to get things in focus. I think the issue the OP was mentioning is that it's possible to get the reticule and target in focus together but then there is parallax shift. If you set the parallax for sharp focus then set diopter focus you can't get the parallax set so the reticule does not shift with L/R head movement, and have the reticule and target in perfect focus.

This is what I've noticed in the past, I can get the reticule and target in perfect focus, but the problem then becomes that the parallax is not right at that setting. Since having the parallax set is the primary concern over perfect focus I've chosen to make sure the parallax is set right then get focus as close as possible.

I think the NF would be a lot easier to set up if the diopter adjustment was more course. There's no reason there has to be 50 turns in it's adjustment range, 2-3 would be more than enough, and it would ensure that the adjustment changes quickly enough that the eye can easier detect the change. As it is I think part of the problem is as you are turning the diopter adjustment the changes are so subtle that your eye can easily adjust to them way too quickly to even notice them. Where you can take most scopes and 1/4 turn on that adjustment makes a huge easily noticeable adjustment. NF has the advantage of being able to make finer adjustments but in practice I think it only serves to frustrate most users rather than allow for a better setup. Also the longer it takes to make adjustments the more eye fatigue you get and the less accurate the adjustments will be.

I know when I first got mine I put 4-5 turns on the diopter adjustment and wasn't sure there was a change, heck I thought the scope was broke or I was disassembling the scope instead of adjusting it. I think they also would benefit from a mark on the housing and diopter adjustment that showed where the factory set "0" mark is so you had a baseline to return to.
 
#42
Re: Nightforce focus woes

Another thing to be aware of is when that scope is set for max travel on the elevation turret its a lot harder to focus and "crisp" up at 100 yards. I would bet if you centered that reticle at 100 yards it would be a lot clearer. That scope is going to perform best when its optically centered(700 to 900 yards). Check your parallax and focus at 500 to infinity and see how it looks......sometimes thats why 100 yard groups arent as good (per moa) as they are at longer ranges with these long elevation travel scopes.
 
#43
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry I asked you Americans your opinions. Some of you keep the the negative stereotype alive that most of the world thinks of you. To the other good and helpful yanks, I guess you can't choose your fellow citizens. geez </div></div>

You lost me here. Most of the world is free to have their negative, ego-centric opinion due to the fact that we saved their asses from one enemy or another they couldnt deal with. So fuck you.
 
#44
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry I asked you Americans your opinions. Some of you keep the the negative stereotype alive that most of the world thinks of you. To the other good and helpful yanks, I guess you can't choose your fellow citizens. geez </div></div>

You lost me here. Most of the world is free to have their negative, ego-centric opinion due to the fact that we saved their asses from one enemy or another they couldnt deal with. So fuck you. </div></div>

Well said Hydro.
 
#47
Re: Nightforce focus woes

I had the same problem and it was the scope. There was a defect on the OBJECTIVE Lens ground wrong that would not allow me to get a clean clear focus no matter what I did. I sent it back and received it back fixed. > I would send the scope back and have it fixed and or replaced. I have two NF scopes and never a problem since then.

KN
 
#48
Re: Nightforce focus woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry I asked you Americans your opinions. Some of you keep the the negative stereotype alive that most of the world thinks of you. To the other good and helpful yanks, I guess you can't choose your fellow citizens. geez </div></div>


Hey AssHole....


WTF does scope focus have to do Nationality? You asked for advice - you didn't like what you heard? Call NF. Don't turn this into something it isn't.


Good luck
 
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