Again, the general participant. The folks heavily involved in these organizations are buying in bulk whenever and wherever they can find them. They're not going to the LGS and buying 220 bullets to load for that weekend's match.
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Your post said you weren’t whining or complaining then your next paragraph is exactly that lol.
Your thinking of what keeps a non profit organization running is completely backwards. It's not the top 25% that keeps it going its the other 75% that does.
That one went right over your head didn't it.
But it's the top 25% that are involved and make the rules. The other 75% come around once or twice a year.
I've been involved with a nonprofit for 20 years that requires volunteers to run events. It's the same complaints. They complain they can't get into the events because they're full. They complain about the way it's run and how 50 years of the organization's experience must be wrong because they see a better way to do it.
Same complaints, different venue.
I've been involved with a nonprofit for 20 years that requires volunteers to run events. It's the same complaints. They complain they can't get into the events because they're full. They complain about the way it's run and how 50 years of the organization's experience must be wrong because they see a better way to do it.
Same complaints, different venue.
I understand what you are saying cause I've seen it first hand and my wife has had to deal with it first hand having worked for 2 non profits one of which was with horses and it's a sport for millionaires that need a hobby. Take for instance American quarter horse association. You take away the top 10% riders in every discipline. The organization is still gonna go on cause the have soooooo many just average joe members and competitors. But you leave the top 10% riders and take away the other 90% that makes up the sport, the organization fails and dies.
My ex wife was into horses. Now that she is gone I have more money for expensive hobbies like NRL hunter and CD matches.
NRL hunter and the rules hit a stride because people are tired of known ranges, matchbooks, squad wind calls, and 20lb guns with 105 grain bullets. I shoot both, but I prefer the field style matches of the Competition Dynamics and NRL hunter matches. (i.e. carry all your stuff, lay in the dirt, find and range your own targets)
If the matches are not selling out, adding a predator division might make sense, but each division generally means more rules to enforce, possibly different stage rules (round count, etc) and adds scoring complexity. Totally not insurmountable, but maybe not necessary right now if the available shooting spots are being sold out with the individual/team/light/heavy/skills divisions.
Too expensive? Shoot the skills division.
Alot of people are simply over thinking my opinion of needing a major/minor scoring factor. I don't want to change any rules at all except adding a major/minor PF scoring factor. Similar scoring as uspsa just not adding hit factor and time into the equation and I'm not saying having a division for minor PF. Major and minor are in each individual rifle division.
Major scoring would consist of
First round hit = 4 points
Second round hit=3 points
Minor scoring up for discussion. But just an example
1st round= 3 points
2nd round=2 points.
Factory/ production class is only scored in minor.
Just my thoughts. I'm open to hear other people's ideas on scoring system for major and minor.
great response, that's why the skills division is there, you don't have to pay the $250 entry, you can shoot whatever u want. Bring on that 223 that you swear you killed a deer at a 1000 yds with and show your skills. Just have fun
Its absolutely the top 25% of shooters (Or whatever the arbitrary number is for people who actually compete) who are actually competing, traveling, going to matches, buying sponsors gear. They are the ones funding these events, not the casuals shooting 2 days.
The people sitting around bitching about costs and component availability aren't , so their opinions don't hold much weight.
If you want to compete, you would have found a way, components have been available you just have to stay active and ready to pounce when they come into stock. 6mm creed match has been on the shelves the whole time and at the very least, people could buy that and shoot it.
Nothing is stopping people from competing except excuses.
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SS brought up a formula that would work on the book of faces. Essentially rifle power factor / 380,000 (standard) x overall points. What people need to realize is the power factor argument goes both ways. Why would someone run a bigger rifle when you can squeak by with a 6.5 Creedmoor? The current power factor/scoring does nothing to convince shooters besides to run a 6.5 creed/ x47 with the smallest amount of recoil.
With Saterlee's equation 6.5 Creed with say 80 points overall scored shooting a 140 at 2,720.
380,800/380,000= 1 x80= 80 overall points
Someone running a 300 winny with a 220 at 2,800
616,000/380,000= 1.6x80= 128 overall points
Someone running a 6 Creed with a 109 @ 3100
337,900/380,000= .89x80= 71 overall points
Anyone could still compete, but you'd see some knarly rifles coming out to play. Right now it's not a hunting rifle/anything goes game, it's a 6.5 Creedmoor game. Saying the power factor NRL Hunter is using now is the fairest way to do it is short sighted and people will tire of it quickly once the new shiny wears off.
With Saterlee's equation 6.5 Creed with say 80 points overall scored shooting a 140 at 2,720.
380,800/380,000= 1 x80= 80 overall points
Someone running a 300 winny with a 220 at 2,800
616,000/380,000= 1.6x80= 128 overall points
Someone running a 6 Creed with a 109 @ 3100
337,900/380,000= .89x80= 71 overall points
Anyone could still compete, but you'd see some knarly rifles coming out to play. Right now it's not a hunting rifle/anything goes game, it's a 6.5 Creedmoor game. Saying the power factor NRL Hunter is using now is the fairest way to do it is short sighted and people will tire of it quickly once the new shiny wears off.
Your simply over looking what I'm implying. Organizations only make money from said criteria:
Memberships
Entry fees
Sponsors.
Your not growing the sport if you only cater to the Top 25% of your Members. If you do your membership will become stagnant and you will lose Members. The main body of Members will get tired of all the favoritism and move along. And your attitude towards people who can't find/afford certain components is honestly a cancer and a piss poor representation of the community. It's people like you that turn good people away from the sport. Prime example. Washita showdown is 3 hrs from my house and I really want to shoot the match but I've talked myself out of it already. No. 1 it's $275 entry. No. 2 I've only got 130 hybrids loaded up and it doesn't meet PF. I don't wanna spend all that time and hard earned money to go shoot a match and not be scored. Even at $175 it's still not worth it. In my honest opinion. Would it be lots of fun hell yeah. But then I'd get home feeling I got kicked in the nuts. Because idk when I'll be able to replace the 90-130 rds of berger bullets since they are unicorn turds right now. Not to mention I run RL 16 and I'm down to my last 1lb. I travel for work I can't tell you how Many stores I've stopped in the last 3 months just to see if they had any RL 16 or 130 bergers. Those people getting lucky and finding components I'm happy for you but alot of us not so lucky. It's another rich man's sport. I'd love to be able to shoot a few matches a year but not at the costs we have these days. Just not worth it. And that comment about telling someone to get a better job was really shitty of you to say. I am very fortunate of the job and position I have and have worked my ass off to get where I am and I do make decent money but it's definitely not enough to have the play money alot of you guys have or you pretend to have. Hearing how alot of you guys respond to people's ideas to help grow the sport is very disheartening honestly. Not everyone is as fortunate as the other guy. Keep that in mind.
Power factor will be gamed because higher power factor is a tiebreaker. Talking with Tyler Hughes (and listening to his podcast), you can also game it pushing a really hot 6.5cm or 6.5 PRC to get greater margins to help compensate in case you dont get the most accurate ranges lazing targets. If I recall correctly Jon Pynch ran 6.5 PRC in Hunter matches last year too.
You should stop listening to podcasts and go shoot a match. Pynch said he wished he'd have ran a 6.5 creed. I would say 95% of shooters were running a creedmoor or similar at the finale. There's no incentive to run anything else and nobody is going to run a heavier recoiling rifle because they just might tie after 2 days of shooting.
Cool story bro.
Powder has been dropping all week as well as the last 2 years. Its out there if you care to look, are patient and buy when it comes in stock. Local boards all selling powder, primers, cases,ect
Bullets are all over the place from Hornady to Nosler to Bergers. 140gr+. Mile high had 153 Bergers for $50 a box for almost 3 months in stock, cheaper than anywhere else.
If you wanted to shoot and compete you would, you are just making excuses because you would rather bitch and complain on the internet than risk your ego and go out and compete. You are taking the easy route.
Its not a rich mans sport but its not a poor mans either. You have to make it a priority and put a little effort into it. You said its not worth it to you. Why are you even posting in this thread then?
Either make it happen or don't. You sound like someone who has never competed and have unrealistic expectations.
You live in a fantasy world and you are the most ignorant person I have ever had a conversation with. If I had the time,money and components I'd shoot every match I could. But I don't have that luxury. Like I said I travel for my job. I could be away from my home for 2 months straight or just a few weeks I never know. I don't have a typical m-f 8-5 job. When I had my rifle built I bought the components that suit me best to do everything i wanted to do. And this was way before hunter series. So I had in mind a comp rifle thst wasn't too heavy. It's 15lbs. Kill whitetail and coyotes. That's why I run the 130 berger and RL 16. I don't have the money or time to go out and buy all these different weights and powders and do load development for every one just so I can shoot a match. When I find a bullet/powder combo I stick with it and bought bulk. You act like everyone has multiple comp guns/hunting rifles. I don't. I have no ego. I have nothing to prove. I just want to shoot matches when I can and actually be scored in the match. When you find RL 16 and 130 bergers let me know I'll buy it off you. At no point in your arguing have you given me a reason to shoot a match just for fun and not be scored. Instead you belittle and talk down to people. At no point have you tried to promote the sport. You all buy buy buy. Buy this buy that. Stop making excuses. Get a better job. Make better life choices. Blah blah blah. You are literally proving every point I have made. And BTW when was throwing out new ideas considered bitching? And why are you bitching about people tossing around different ideas to grow the sport? Are you afraid that someone shooting minor might beat you if you shoot major? What is your name so I can be on the look out on the leader boards? I mean obviously your a top 5 shooter every weekend is what it sounds like. How dumb of me to assume otherwise.
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Minuteman
Serious question.
If you keep your own score, and they publish the scores, you’ll be able to see how you did against the top shooters.
What’s the motivation to wanting to pay the extra for them to keep/publish your scores.
This is serious question. Helps us make decisions when considering all shooter’s viewpoints.
Prize table and pay out for placing In top 3 or however they pay out the top shooters. My opinion to draw more interest would be pay out 1st and 2nd place in every division and have random draw at the prize table.
I'm not talking about skills division either. I completely agree with the idea of a skills division and not qualifying for prizes in skills division. But it's the power factor thing for me. Not meeting the PF requirement and not being scored and not having a chance at prizes or cash really kind of sucks. Like I've pointed out before it would be like uspsa only scoring major power factor. Doesn't make alot of sense only having one power factor.
No the problem is you want it your way and its not Burger King. Adapt and overcome instead of making excuses and bitching.
Please explain to me how having a major/ minor power factor scoring would effect NRL Hunter in a negative way.
Power factor, keeping the poors from shooting a match. Who would have thought it, poor kids can't shoot their 24Lb $10K rigs shooting 6BR and Dasher.
They don't need to create new divisions, they fill up just find and it stays with the spirit of the game, which is WESTERN BIG GAME HUNTING.
Feel free to make a match that simulates shooting 150lb deer in a cornfield with a 20lb pussyfart gun at a max distance of 3-400 yards from a blind or box while drinking bush lights. I am sure tons of people will sign up to learn those really hard shooting skills.
You really are a piss poor reader. I never said anything about creating new divisions. Except I mentioned a predator class. I want the divisions that are already in place exactly how they are. Only thing I'm saying is to modify the the power factor scoring that's all. You are over reading everything I've said power factor. My idea is you get rewarded for making hits shooting major power factor. Idk any other way to simplify it for you other than direct you to the uspsa power factor scoring system. I'm not saying use there parameters. But it's an idea so everyone gets scored in every division.
Damn, here I am running an sub 8lb 6.5 PRC like an idiot because I like the format and I want practice... And its what I have.
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Oh, the power factor thing.
Unfortunately that would likely not work at the moment.
1: there’s not enough people shooting yet to warrant it. It’s doing well for being new. But still needs to grow
2: the minute you bring in a minor power factor, everyone goes back to 6mm and leaves the major with a very small amount of shooters
Unfortunately that would likely not work at the moment.
1: there’s not enough people shooting yet to warrant it. It’s doing well for being new. But still needs to grow
2: the minute you bring in a minor power factor, everyone goes back to 6mm and leaves the major with a very small amount of shooters
Your 2nd point. Uspsa and ipsc have proven that wrong. You get higher scoring factor shooting major.
I agree with you on both accounts. That's why keeping the classes the same weight wise, but using the 380,000 pf as a base line makes sense with the modified formula. Shoot a dasher of that's what you have; probably won't be very competitive.
I could see 308s, 30-06s, 7mms, you name it, making a come back and being very competitive. How much fun would that be!
I understand exactly what you are saying and again, no body cares about power factor except people who don't compete. Its a game, these are the rules within the spirit of what they wanted, which for the Xth time, is Western Big Game. These matches fill up for the most part, they don't need a new division which would only cost more and take more resources for minimal/no gain. Who knows, maybe NRL Hunter One will have something like this but you are just going to get your ass stomped by the same people winning 2 day matches. You have already said what your motivation is, you are too poor and/or lazy to secure components to shoot and in your words, its not worth it to you. No need to keep posting in a thread for a league/shooting sport you have no intention of participating it.
If you paid to show up and your gun doesn't meet PF or weight I doubt they won't let you shoot it as long as its safe for the targets. You just won't get scored or walk the prize table, which is basically skills division. Show up with a 6mm and see what happens. I think they would let you shoot but don't know for certain. You could always ask Travis on FB or the MD.
Anyway you cut it people will game it. Those with the resources will build a dedicated meta gun to take advantage will. Half the fun is an excuse to build a new rig. No one competitve is going to shoot those outdated rounds when there are modern super cartridges (Shermans, WSMs, PRCS, Normas ,ect) that shoot way flatter to account for poor ranging/doping if they make PF part of your score.
Just shoot your game and let everyone else worry about why they want to shoot.
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I'm competing within the parameters either way whatever the rules are. I'd just like to see it pay to run bigger guns, which makes sense in the spirit of hunting. It would also allow guys who can't quite make power factor to still compete, they're just at a distinct disadvantage.
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There’s no guarantee it’s the same for this game.
That’s many, many more pistol shooters out there. It’s a much more accessible game for many reason.
I didn’t realize this was Western Big Game matches. I guess everyone is shooting magnums then, like 300 mag, 300 PRC, 300 WSM, 7 Mag and so on. You know big game rifles.
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@DeathBeforeDismount
What cartridge are you competing with in these Hunter matches?
What cartridge are you competing with in these Hunter matches?
As far as PF goes:
for the 2 day matches, you need something to keep people shooting a rifle with enough energy to kill an elk at 400+ yards. At the same time put a premium on precision over energy. Possible in the future look to modify the pf for factory class, either way, someone will want something different.
For one day matches, I dont think there will be any power factor, likely just a weight limit. I dont believe it will be a big draw for Precision rifle guys. It will be good for the non precision rifle guys to get positional/ shooting practice.
for the 2 day matches, you need something to keep people shooting a rifle with enough energy to kill an elk at 400+ yards. At the same time put a premium on precision over energy. Possible in the future look to modify the pf for factory class, either way, someone will want something different.
For one day matches, I dont think there will be any power factor, likely just a weight limit. I dont believe it will be a big draw for Precision rifle guys. It will be good for the non precision rifle guys to get positional/ shooting practice.
6.5cm slinging 153s
My buddy and his son in the last few years killed half a dozen bull elk, mountain goat , mess of bears and ton of mule deer with 6.5CM.
Welcome to 2015. 6.5CM is a Big Game Cartridge.
So why are you shitting on someone who shoots 6.5CM with a 130 berger load?
What velocity are you running with that load?
Are you retarded? Serious question.
Fuck yeah it's a serious question? Your in this thread acting like you got a bigger dick then everyone. Shitting on people for running 6.5cm. You know cause that's not for western big game. You know cause it's called NRL western big game hunter. And come to find out you run a 6.5 creedmoor and act like just because you run a 153 your a fucking bad ass and everyone else is a peasant. Go sit the fuck down and take more viagra. Holy fuck dude your the one running a pussy fart load. Your fucking lucky to be getting 2700 fps with that bullet. Your sir are a pompous fucking prick. Done arguing with you. I'll be sure to look for your name in the Boone crocket list. You know cause "YOU" slay so many western big game with that creedmoor.
Yup Confirmed you are retarded.
NO where in this thread did I shit on anyone for running 6.5CM. I said I would like to see more traditional big game hunting calibers used but never once said 6.5CM shouldn't be able to compete or shit on them. You need to learn to fucking read or stop listening to the voices in your head.
Your gotcha moment went out in a puff of smoke, like everything you have said in here.
I hunt mulies and bear with 6.5cm and 156 EOLS, so 153s is the closest thing to that that I could buy in the last 6 months.
All you and that other dick sucker LV have done is shit in this thread, neither of you plan to compete or shoot. Now you can be added with him to ignore list for being a waste of oxygen.
You have to make the scoring favor major PF or what you say will come true.
You can choose major or minor power factor in Open and Limited divisions in USPSA. Take two identical 2011s, one in 40 S&W and one in 9X19. The 9mm one will fit at least 3 more cartridges in the magazine (which is limited in length by the rules) and will recoil less. Those two attributes are significant advantages.
Yet almost no one who is serious about doing well chooses to shoot minor PF in Open or Limited. Why is that? Because the way USPSA scoring works gives shooters who use major PF ammo an advantage that overwhelms the combined advantages of less recoil and more capacity that come with minor PF in every equipment division where major PF exists.
My point exactly. Having minor and major PF does nothing to this sport except open the door for more people to compete and actually be scored and placed and walk prize table. You have a shitty match and a guy beats you shooting minor cause he shot lights out. You should be rewarded for shooting better and rewarded for shooting a higher power factor. Uspsa and ipsc paved the way for shooting sports. They opened it up for anyone to shoot not just people with play money. For whatever reason NRL and PRS want to ignore those facts and I have no clue why. NRL and PRS are both stagnant and the majority of people see it. Keep catering to your top shooter’s though looks like it's working well for both organizations. One big dick measuring contest and people with thin skin. They proved that at the AG cup and the aftermath after the match.
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I don’t disagree.
But let’s wait until more than 50-70 people are showing up for 10 matches across the country (I’m guessing 10 matches, it’s somewhere around that many) before we start slicing up the pie.
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You’re still ignoring how small this community is even vs uspsa.
Also, the shit storm at AG cup was also propagated by people who don’t shoot and/or didn’t read the rules on what happens when you flag someone.
Yes, I certainly don't know when the time will be right. I don't even know if a lower power factor would ever be necessary.
No problem making 380 PF with a 308, even a 17"
Was this stage 6?
