Was this stage 6?
Is there a problem here?
Is there a problem here?
If he bought the gear with hard earned money, and carries it during the Match, I have no problem with that.
If he's able to set up, and make hits on target before he times out, I give him credit for preforming the task successfully.
With all due respect, I have to confess to not understanding the "practicality" argument that keeps coming up.@LV Precision, you’re obviously just trolling at this point. You won’t answer direct questions about shooting NRL Hunter matches which means you likely haven’t. You’ve made your vague, useless point that NRL Hunter gear is too expensive. Great. Now move along and post your crappy memes elsewhere.
As for NRL Hunter being more practical than PRS…it absolutely is. Not necessarily because it’s less of a gear race, but because the rifles and gear being used are more applicable to hunting and tactical/military scenarios.
How are the rifles more practical? Weight. PRS is now a 20# or heavier benchrest gun. Frank and Scott recognized it as becoming a problem in that it’s not practical to have such heavy rifles in most real world scenarios. Just like most guys aren’t EDC’ing their open USPSA race guns.
A sub 16 lb rifle is more similar to a military sniper rifle, a sub 12 lb one is perfect for western hunters. Binos, range finder and tripod are all things most Western big game hunters use for glassing, ranging and engaging real animals to put meat in the freezer. Same for tactical precision Rifleman.
The skills employed in spotting, ranging and shooting targets under pressure in NRL Hunter also translate very well to Hunting/Military scenarios. Also problem solving and building a position is very applicable to both.
I’ll be excited to see where these NRL one matches go. That said; I’m disappointed to see their regular 2 day matches going away as NRL has more stuff in the west near me. Hopefully border wars or similar continues on.
The Hunter series is what I’ll be focusing on and it has already made me better prepared as a hunter. Won’t hurt if Russia and China keep it up either…
That was 14, I shot that stage from my tripod. I tried prone and couldn't see the first target at all. I was an RO with Jim See on that stage, Pynch and Alwine made it look easy.
I dont think you are wrong, these are shooting competitions that should benefit each other and all of us. I will continue with precision rifle and Hunter matches.With all due respect, I have to confess to not understanding the "practicality" argument that keeps coming up.
It's a shooting competition. Practical isn't better. More people take to the gun ranges on any given weekend than any other shooting sport to shoot Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clay's with the shotguns that will never see a bird hunt. They are imminently practical for what they are designed to do. Just as heavy rifles are practical for PRS.
So NRL Hunter builds are practical for hunting and remotely relatable to military engagements. I would probably argue that yes and no, you could say that. I don't behave even remotely on a hunting trip like I do in a shooting competition. With 45 years of big game hunting throughout the northwest, and counting. I'm not on the clock, nor am I looking for multiple targets. I think the most common denominator is building a good position and taking the shot. I find that skillset common to PRS, High Powered Rifle, and even 3 Gun for that matter.
I think there are differences. I think they are fantastic differences. I believe NRL Hunter is a fantastic concept that should vecome a very popular shooting sport.
I also humbly believe the skillset is the same. The workflow is almost identical. But they are just different enough that it makes for more great choices for our shooting community.
With all due respect, I have to confess to not understanding the "practicality" argument that keeps coming up.
It's a shooting competition. Practical isn't better. More people take to the gun ranges on any given weekend than any other shooting sport to shoot Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clay's with the shotguns that will never see a bird hunt. They are imminently practical for what they are designed to do. Just as heavy rifles are practical for PRS.
So NRL Hunter builds are practical for hunting and remotely relatable to military engagements. I would probably argue that yes and no, you could say that. I don't behave even remotely on a hunting trip like I do in a shooting competition. With 45 years of big game hunting throughout the northwest, and counting. I'm not on the clock, nor am I looking for multiple targets. I think the most common denominator is building a good position and taking the shot. I find that skillset common to PRS, High Powered Rifle, and even 3 Gun for that matter.
I think there are differences. I think they are fantastic differences. I believe NRL Hunter is a fantastic concept that should vecome a very popular shooting sport.
I also humbly believe the skillset is the same. The workflow is almost identical. But they are just different enough that it makes for more great choices for our shooting community.
You also make good points. I don't disagree with you.I think you raise some good points Sir. I did not mean to imply that PRS is useless at building applicable skills. In practicing for PRS matches over the last several years I have become a more competent rifleman. As you said, learning to build a solid position on, and especially off, your belly is a skill that translates to many situations. So does precision reloading. I happen to be in the position where I carry a rifle for work and have felt more confident with a carbine and LPVO from the skills I gained at building solid positions in uncomfortable and stressful situations.
That being said, I think the practicality of NRL hunter is obvious, especially the weight of the rifle. Many companies are catering to both long range hunters and NRL competitors with lighter weight components for precision rifle builds; from stocks to barrels to chassis, etc. The lighter weight makes these rifles more practical to be used in the field for hunting because they can actually be carried and shot off-hand effectively. People are getting practice shooting lighter rifles they actually can and do hunt with. Can you hunt with your 6mm gee-whiz 23 lb rifle? Sure, from a tree stand 100 yards from the truck. Not many are actually doing anything more than that though.
How much recoil difference is there between a 10-12 lb 6.5 PRC, 7 SAUM or even 6.5 Creedmoor and a 23 lb 6mm BR? I can tell you after shooting my PRS weight 6GT, going to a 12 lb 6.5 Creedmoor and 7 SAUM made me realize how spoiled I was getting. With lighter rifles the shooter has to really pay attention to follow-through, adjust gear, possibly add a better muzzle brake and focus more on all the fundamentals to connect. Those are all going to translate to better hits on game animals. It's no surprise that most PRS top shooters are winning NRL matches, they have mastered the fundamentals of shooting, reading wind, performing under stress and getting the most from their gear. Most will say they are far better hunters because of skills learned in both games but more of those skills seem to be employed with the NRL format.
The military is paying attention too. There's a reason that PROOF carbon barrels won a .gov contract. I think military and LE snipers could benefit from both PRS and NRL matches but what is going to provide more practical experience for what a miltary sniper is LIKELY to encounter in combat? A sprint with gear that raises your heart rate, some time pressure of a clock, finding targets under stress through glass on a blind stage, ranging said targets, doping your own wind and then building a target card and plan on how to engage the targets from awkward positions where movement may be required to see them all? Or having 20 minutes to watch your whole squad shoot a PRS barricade while on glass with the targets having been pointed out to you and getting to observe others shoot through glass before your turn? I like PRS, I think it makes people better positional shooters and learn to call wind and reload better but the format of the NRL and the gear make it more practical and applicable to both hunting and sniping.
It's not an accident that two of the biggest advocates of this exact change are Frank Galli and Scott Saterlee. They're both dudes that spent time in the military doing it for real and have been wanting to get back to something like NRL, like how precision rifle matches started 20 or so years ago. Scott is a dude that has ties to the Special Forces community and the hunting community. The reason he started the NRL matches was that he looked at his safe of PRS guns and knew he'd never use them on a hunt.
With all due respect, go start a match that simulates a "real hunt." People can hike 9 days and take a shot on 1 target IF they find it first. First person to shoot the steel wins, the other 150 guys are disqualified because only one person gets to kill and eat the deer. I'm sure there will be a lot of boot companies lining up to sponsor those matches and it will be wildly popular.
Obviously there's a lot more to hunting than NRL. I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two with your extensive hunting experience. (not being snarky, I'm sure you could). I know I'm planning to carry my NRL rifle into the field this fall for Elk and Deer. Having the exact rifle I have shot hundreds or thousands of rounds through playing games on the clock will make me more confident when some big bruiser steps out at 475 yards for sure.
I was RO on 6 and 13 and that was not 6. As mentioned looks likey 14Was this stage 6?
I heard the best hunter match this weekend in Washita…
Walk around for 6 hours then take two shots right before dusk
I probably phrased it poorly......I literally have no idea what you are getting at?
I shot the match this weekend in Washita and it was probably the most fun Ive had at a NRL hunter match. Lots of steel and easy to find lol. I guess Im weird, but when I go to a shooting match I want to shoot. Not spend all my time looking for targets and getting no shots off. Impossible to find targets is how you get people to not come back.
YMMV
DT
@D_TROSI was RO on 6 and 13 and that was not 6. As mentioned looks likey 14
This is WAY more practical than PRS/NRL open as it limits the blatant CHEATING. No wind stealing. No positional ideas cheating. No getting others ranges. No finding targets. no super squads. No watching 20 guys hoot a stage to see how to do it best. Saying hunter is more practical than PRS is an immense understatement. And I still really enjoy PRS matches...
There is no "gaming" because its all your ideas. There is no limits or gear restrictions on the stage as everything you can carry and deploy in 4 min is allowed. I love watching people over think a stage and timing out because they incorrectly think, as mentioned as naseum in this post, that you can buy better positions in the leader board with better gear. You buy better positions by practicing finding, ranging, and shooting targets both at your home range and by shooting matches.
I shot a factory tikka and factory 143 ammo on a 500$ tripod and sig rf. I had my second in a row top 4 overall shooting factory class (AZ and OK)
Ive never won a 2 day match but I love to shoot. #midpackshooter
This exactly proves its not a gear race. Which I think new shooters need to see AND which is my intent of shooting factory.
Arguing it isnt practical because you can buy better equipment in a competition shows a very lacking knowledge of competition in general. This is taking off because its addresses what the PRS wont address - super squads. wind sharing. etc etc. the avg shooter is sick of giving up 2 pts+ PER STAGE to the super squad.
The NRL Hunter was handed a very easy to implement and fun format of a match by Satterlee when the first one was put on couple years ago in Cameo, CO. I was there. It had nearly 200 people. The NRL will kill this the same as the NRL open was killed if they listen to the redic whining of people to "cater to everyone".
ITS WORKING - Dont change the format. Factory ammo address all the concerns anyway. Anyone can buy it and PF doesnt even matter.
If you dont like the rules go shoot PRS. The 20 lb rifles and getting free wind hide your crutches better anyway. The hunter series is about making you a better shooter. Embrace it...or dont.
Regards
DT
RO's can shoot the entire COF the day before the match starts. They run through the stages just like a regular competitor.@D_TROS
Can you please elaborate this scenario of shooting and ROing? Does this mean you RO'd a stage after you shot it, or that you shot the CoF at a different time or something? I'm trying to glean as much info as possible about these matches before I shoot one of them soon.
Thanks.
He got Factory 1st Place trophy, so his scores counted.Oh, very cool. So he's saying he got 4th place with his Tikka "virtually", or do scores from the previous day count in the competition?
That was my first and only "Hunter" match so far and it was awesome! That was a tough two day, 102 degree weather, smoke from the forest fire and sprinting up those dry dusty hills. I was impressed with RO's for doing all 20 in one day.The NRL Hunter was handed a very easy to implement and fun format of a match by Satterlee when the first one was put on couple years ago in Cameo, CO. I was there. It had nearly 200 people. The NRL will kill this the same as the NRL open was killed if they listen to the redic whining of people to "cater to everyone".
Oh, very cool. So he's saying he got 4th place with his Tikka "virtually", or do scores from the previous day count in the competition?
I love watching people over think a stage and timing out because they incorrectly think, as mentioned as naseum in this post, that you can buy better positions in the leader board with better gear.
I spoke to Shannon not too long ago about the Friday RO match. I think his reasons are valid for not wanting to open that can of worms.NRL Hunter does a very cool thing of allowing RO's to shoot the match the friday before and your scores count for the match. IF you RO they trade your help in liu of paying to shoot. ie paying the RO's...one of the biggest problem the shooting sport faces.
Almost 6 years ago I mentioned to the PRS board to require anyone shooting for season points to RO at least one match...I was shut down sadly.
This is incentive to get shooters like me to help out with the match. Better RO's make for a smoother run match.
There is a downside. Shooting 20 stages in one day is very taxing. AND the worst part is after about 3 oh clock the sun comes down and is right in your eyes. It has cost me at almost every match I have done this at. As the match is designed to be done before 3, ending at 6 for the RO's never crosses their mind...nor should it. Still sucks but at least we can help and shoot.
I was 4th overall in AZ and 2nd overall in OK with my tikka. One was good for 1st factory and one 2nd factory and both scores counted towards the overall match ranking. Again as mentioned I shoot factory so people can know that you dont need to dump 10k on a custom carbon fiber rig and swaro to be effective.
If you have any other questions please ask.
regards
DT
What's that triple pull ckye-pod cost?
I shot the match in Oklahoma on Friday as an RO. Being an RO let me see how all of the shooters and teams managed their time and how they overcame obstacles differently. I did better in the morning than I did in the afternoon as I am not in that great of shape and am nursing a back issue. @D_TROS drove through the night and somewhat slept in his truck to make it there Friday morning, so if anyone has an excuse for Friday, it was him.Scores count. Penance for shooting as an RO is you have to shoot the entire match in one day. It's an extremely effective way to get more and better ROs.
I have a question regarding shooters not being able to watch others shoot a stage. The NRL hunter match I shot, you could watch shooters build positions and game off of that. Were people able to see Pynch shoot off of the tripod and bipod; or was he blocked off from other shooters? Do you think people have a chance to share wind calls and target locations on the side?I was RO on 6 and 13 and that was not 6. As mentioned looks likey 14
This is WAY more practical than PRS/NRL open as it limits the blatant CHEATING. No wind stealing. No positional ideas cheating. No getting others ranges. No finding targets. no super squads. No watching 20 guys hoot a stage to see how to do it best. Saying hunter is more practical than PRS is an immense understatement. And I still really enjoy PRS matches...
There is no "gaming" because its all your ideas. There is no limits or gear restrictions on the stage as everything you can carry and deploy in 4 min is allowed. I love watching people over think a stage and timing out because they incorrectly think, as mentioned as naseum in this post, that you can buy better positions in the leader board with better gear. You buy better positions by practicing finding, ranging, and shooting targets both at your home range and by shooting matches.
I shot a factory tikka and factory 143 ammo on a 500$ tripod and sig rf. I had my second in a row top 4 overall shooting factory class (AZ and OK)
Ive never won a 2 day match but I love to shoot. #midpackshooter
This exactly proves its not a gear race. Which I think new shooters need to see AND which is my intent of shooting factory.
Arguing it isnt practical because you can buy better equipment in a competition shows a very lacking knowledge of competition in general. This is taking off because its addresses what the PRS wont address - super squads. wind sharing. etc etc. the avg shooter is sick of giving up 2 pts+ PER STAGE to the super squad.
The NRL Hunter was handed a very easy to implement and fun format of a match by Satterlee when the first one was put on couple years ago in Cameo, CO. I was there. It had nearly 200 people. The NRL will kill this the same as the NRL open was killed if they listen to the redic whining of people to "cater to everyone".
ITS WORKING - Dont change the format. Factory ammo address all the concerns anyway. Anyone can buy it and PF doesnt even matter.
If you dont like the rules go shoot PRS. The 20 lb rifles and getting free wind hide your crutches better anyway. The hunter series is about making you a better shooter. Embrace it...or dont.
Regards
DT
What's that triple pull ckye-pod cost?
I spoke to Shannon not too long ago about the Friday RO match. I think his reasons are valid for not wanting to open that can of worms.
I did the RO shoot here in Idaho last year. It was one of the first matches in the NRL to do it. And I agree, a 20 stage day is a huge grind. I was gassed at the end of the day. But the stage was being set for some really upset shooters, as we had a bluebird day on Friday and the weatherman was calling for a tsunami on Sunday. Multiple shooters were not so casually complaining that it was unfair.
Luckily, the high winds never materialized. And it became a non issue. But if they had, that format may have died right there.
As soon as an RO gets a beautiful day and wins a trophy under better shooting conditions than the rest of the field had, there will be tears...
On the two stages that I RO'd, 14 and 1, we had two trucks that kept other shooters from seeing what was going on at the shooting position. I can tell you that no one else shot those stages like Pynch and Alwine. On stage 14 on Saturday, we didn't have the second truck for 6-8 shooters, and it negatively affected the guys who followed someone that decided to shoot the stage from a tripod in the standing position. It was almost comical and sad at the same time, kind of like lemmings jumping in the ocean. I almost rolled my truck trying to get it to a place where the guys waitng couldn't see what was going on.I have a question regarding shooters not being able to watch others shoot a stage. The NRL hunter match I shot, you could watch shooters build positions and game off of that. Were people able to see Pynch shoot off of the tripod and bipod; or was he blocked off from other shooters? Do you think people have a chance to share wind calls and target locations on the side?
I have a question regarding shooters not being able to watch others shoot a stage. The NRL hunter match I shot, you could watch shooters build positions and game off of that. Were people able to see Pynch shoot off of the tripod and bipod; or was he blocked off from other shooters? Do you think people have a chance to share wind calls and target locations on the side?
The easiest thing to do is (wait for it…) just not the watch the guy shooting a stage before you do. I mean, it’s in the rules…The rules are clear. Share wind, talk about targets, look for targets, glass in direction of stage and a couple others is a MATCH DQ. No other league stands up against this BS.
Now do people cheat is another issue. At least the hunter spells it out. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that no matter what people will cheat the weight or velocity or other issues (sharing wind/tagets with friends) and if cheating is that important to them...well I dont think any restrictions will stop them. Im not going to let my fun weekend worrying about that tho...
Its on the MD to ensure you cant see the shooting position from the staging area. If you can then there is nothing you can do about that but the intent is to come into the shooting position completely blind. Certain positions you just cant help it.
After you shoot the stage you walk to the next stage to prevent any communication with people in your squad. If the MD doesnt hide the shooting position from the staging area thats on them. If terrain doesnt allow this they prob shouldnt be putting on a hunter match. Petty easy to do tho with any natural terrain to speak of.
Regards
DT
Are people cheating in other blind stage matches without repercussion?The rules are clear. Share wind, talk about targets, look for targets, glass in direction of stage and a couple others is a MATCH DQ. No other league stands up against this BS.
Are people cheating in other blind stage matches without repercussion?
I havent really shot any. I know you shoot RTC or CD, are they blind stages?
Shooters are staged away from the actual shooting location. After a shooter finishes the RO calls up the next one. Usually natural screening or vehicles were used to block the shooting from the staging. Teams have to use quiet voices to communicate to avoid accidentally contaminating shooters waiting back in the staging area.I have a question regarding shooters not being able to watch others shoot a stage. The NRL hunter match I shot, you could watch shooters build positions and game off of that. Were people able to see Pynch shoot off of the tripod and bipod; or was he blocked off from other shooters? Do you think people have a chance to share wind calls and target locations on the side?
I'm insinuating that a gear queer saying don't worry about gear is:Are you insinuating that had Pynch NOT used a trip pull he would not have won?
8k worth of gear? What are you poor?I'm insinuating that a gear queer saying don't worry about gear is:
I don't disagree with what your message is, just pointing out that it's humorous coming from a dude with $8k of shit with him at a match.
You're still my boy, blue
I'm insinuating that a gear queer saying don't worry about gear is:
I don't disagree with what your message is, just pointing out that it's humorous coming from a dude with $8k of shit with him at a match.
You're still my boy, blue
This i agree with... you don't have to do it. Plenty have and won't see any difference. I think certain pieces of gear are probably always going to be a little advantageous, problem is everyone views that like they can take advantage of the difference and most can't.just hate when people say you have to do that to be a winner OR the hunter is nothing but a gear race
Here’s the match I was at. Everyone could basically see 2 stages ahead of them and 2 stages behind them. I saw some things that made me scratch my head but I enjoyed shooting it anyways.Shooters are staged away from the actual shooting location. After a shooter finishes the RO calls up the next one. Usually natural screening or vehicles were used to block the shooting from the staging. Teams have to use quiet voices to communicate to avoid accidentally contaminating shooters waiting back in the staging area.
The shooter is called up to a stake, RO confers with them, then time starts. Shooter runs up to the shoot location on the clock and gets to work.
After shooting, shooter clears the stake and packs up their stuff. They might get to watch the next guy for a second but they really need to be hiking on to the next staging area, which probably has a couple of guys waiting to shoot the next stage. They don't get to walk back to the staging area for the stage they just shot.
Here’s the match I was at. Everyone could basically see 2 stages ahead of them and 2 stages behind them. I saw some things that made me scratch my head but I enjoyed shooting it anyways.
D_tros how much is your hunter setup? Do you reload? When you say you can be competitive shooting cheap stuff or you don’t need 8k to be competitive; does this also apply to Prs?
But the stage was being set for some really upset shooters, as we had a bluebird day on Friday and the weatherman was calling for a tsunami on Sunday. Multiple shooters were not so casually complaining that it was unfair
I hear you, and I get it. I was surprised to hear the complaints, even more surprised at one of the people that were complaining. And at the end of the weekend, it was all for naught...They can shut the fuck up. That happens in every shooting sport that has multi day matches and there's no way to even it out.
USPSA has had ROs shoot the major matches the day or two before all other competitors for like.....forever. Sometimes they get a nice day to shoot while the weekend crowd swims in rain, sometimes the other way round.
There will never, ever be a "blind stage" in a match. The sooner that gets abandoned the easier life will beAs far as people being upset about how "blind" things really were, thats just lame to be upset about it.
Yup. Key word. These are games, not simulations or re-enactments.These are games made to make you a better shooter and god forbid have a little bit of fun.
Elaborate on "there will never be a blind stage."There will never, ever be a "blind stage" in a match. The sooner that gets abandoned the easier life will be
Yup. Key word. These are games, not simulations or re-enactments.
Elaborate on "there will never be a blind stage."
You will never be able to keep the stage a complete secret
And what is even the point? That blind stage stuff has been tried many times before in pistol competitions. It always ends up creating flow bottlenecks and it prevents the ROs from shooting the match which means you will get nobody to volunteer to run it.