Oh Afghanistan, how I miss you

frankxtc

Sergeant of the Hide
PX Member
Minuteman
Aug 24, 2020
103
241
There was an article in Military History magazine years ago.
It had a complete historical timeline of every conquest of Afghanistan, from BC to present.
No one, from BC to present ever prevailed there.
I can’t figure out the attraction, over all the millennia, of all the sultans, emperors, kings, premiers, presidents etc. for the place.
 

TurboTrout

Major Hide Member
PX Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2020
1,096
862
East Coast
That goes too far.

The diplomatic message should have been....."If you wish to maintain your sovereignty either turn over Al-Quaida or immediatly stop harboring them. Failing to so will result in a manhunt using our military and any means necessary to effect the arrest or killing of these individuals."

If that fails see my earlier post on strategy.

War must be an existential threat.

Leaving Al-Quaida operational after 9/11 represented an existential threat to our way of life as we enjoyed it on 9/10/2001.

Sadly our government has been more detrimental to that 9/10/2001 way of life than any terrorist has been.

Life on 9/10/2001 compared to 5/3/2021 is so different other than geography there is little resemblance.

For one, good luck “winning” that battle.

Two terrorist were not that much of a threat, I had a higher chance of drowning in my own bathtub than a terry killing me lol

Frankly blowing up buildings over there, if anything, makes us LESS safe from that standpoint. The best way to win the war in the Middle East is to just not play that stupid game and win those stupid prizes, get the fuck out and leave it alone.
 

TurboTrout

Major Hide Member
PX Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2020
1,096
862
East Coast
There was an article in Military History magazine years ago.
It had a complete historical timeline of every conquest of Afghanistan, from BC to present.
No one, from BC to present ever prevailed there.
I can’t figure out the attraction, over all the millennia, of all the sultans, emperors, kings, premiers, presidents etc. for the place.

It’s like communism, makes power and privilege for those at the top, who ain’t going over there anyways, and the hubris of “well it’ll work this time”.

Statists going to statist
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
PX Member
Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    There was an article in Military History magazine years ago.
    It had a complete historical timeline of every conquest of Afghanistan, from BC to present.
    No one, from BC to present ever prevailed there.
    I can’t figure out the attraction, over all the millennia, of all the sultans, emperors, kings, premiers, presidents etc. for the place.

    In the past its value was as a passage.

    Other than that - landlocked, mountainous, extremes.....not much else to love.

    Once other transport routes were attained it lost its attraction

    Rare earths have made it "that girl".
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    Well, I can give you about 30 personal examples of this - where we 'saved' an 'innocent' minor, only to add him to the k/c list later on during the conflict.

    'War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...'

    Its terrible, but I dont lose any sleep about it. Debating the merits of the conflict, Im not convinced of the merits of why we were in either place, but having spent a majority of my adult life in one or the other, its not my job to debate the merits - just to win the 'war.' By winning, we need mouthbreathers like yourself full of self-proclaimed righteousness to either STFU, or join. Standing on the sidelines throwing rocks from a balsa wood and glass house doesn't do anybody any good. Insinuating I am complicit with ISIS? Nah man, I just do my job to the best of my abilities and try to protect as many innocent lives as possible while bringing my guys home.

    Man that’s some E1 higher level thinking right there!

    You call me a “mouth breather” as you basically try the Nuremberg defense, didn’t work out too hot for those krauts, but I’m sure you got this lol

    I don’t claim to be righteous, I don’t believe I am, nor am I a idiotic Puritan who such things would appeal to, and if you have any reading comprehension why the fuck would I join? That makes ZERO sense. This is that slamming your dick in the door argument again, see unlike you I don’t need to slam my dick in a door to know, or state, that it’s a bad idea, I prefer to read history on how other people slammed their dick in the Afghan door and LEARN how it was a bad idea, vs watching a Go Army commercial and signing up for some door slamming.

    And yes, your thought process on if a kid is in the building they have it coming, dude you are 80% of the marketing campaign for those insurgents, I mean add that quote above the photo of a blown to bits kid and woman and it’s a fucking recruitment flyer for those guys.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    For one, good luck “winning” that battle.

    Two terrorist were not that much of a threat, I had a higher chance of drowning in my own bathtub than a terry killing me lol

    Frankly blowing up buildings over there, if anything, makes us LESS safe from that standpoint. The best way to win the war in the Middle East is to just not play that stupid game and win those stupid prizes, get the fuck out and leave it alone.


    Really?

    Look how bad a flu with less than 1% fatality rate has scared the People.

    What would it have done to our economy if a cruise ship blew up, than a Mall, or perhaps a dirty bomb goes off in town.....

    None have to create huge life loss....just the "Oh shit!" and our media sensationalizing for ratings would have had us slit our own wrists.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    Man that’s some E1 higher level thinking right there!

    You call me a “mouth breather” as you basically try the Nuremberg defense, didn’t work out too hot for those krauts, but I’m sure you got this lol

    I don’t claim to be righteous, I don’t believe I am, nor am I a idiotic Puritan who such things would appeal to, and if you have any reading comprehension why the fuck would I join? That makes ZERO sense. This is that slamming your dick in the door argument again, see unlike you I don’t need to slam my dick in a door to know it’s a bad idea, and no I don’t need to slam my dick in a door to state that it’s a bad idea, I prefer to read history on how other people slammed their dick on the Afghan door and said it was a bad idea, vs watching a Go Army commercial and signing up to slam my dick in that door.

    And yes, your thought process on if a kid is in the building they have it coming, dude you are 80% of the marketing campaign for those insurgents, I mean add that quote above the photo of a blown to bits kid and woman and it’s a fucking recruitment flyer for those guys.


    You realize that they would use your mentality against you?

    Do not look into the Abyss but by allowing them to fight their tactics you only put more innocents at risk.

    The next thing would be donning baby carriers....



    1620065980586.png

    in order to walk right up and shoot your frozen with morality in an immoral situation self in the face.
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    Really?

    Look how bad a flu with less than 1% fatality rate has scared the People.

    What would it have done to our economy if a cruise ship blew up, than a Mall, or perhaps a dirty bomb goes off in town.....

    None have to create huge life loss....just the "Oh shit!" and our media sensationalizing for ratings would have had us slit our own wrists.

    Oh I agree, folks are scared of their own damn farts these days.

    Sadly that’s a feature not a flaw in the eyes of the state.
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    You realize that they would use your mentality against you?

    Do not look into the Abyss but by allowing them to fight their tactics you only put more innocents at risk.

    The next thing would be donning baby carriers....



    View attachment 7617339

    in order to walk right up and shoot your frozen with morality in an immoral situation self in the face.

    How is a guy driving a Toyota truck in fucking bum fuck Afghanistan going to use that against me in the US? He’s not. g’luck with that one.

    Funny thing is you honestly think the only way to serve your country, or only “me brave man” thing is signing up with the recruiter? Really?

    Want to save American lives, look at the number one killer in the US and fight that.

    Want to make the country strong, start a successful business.

    Im all for military as and when needed, Middle East ain’t it
     
    • Like
    Reactions: khel and wade2big

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    Afghanistan is a case study of Mission creep due to corruption, i just love it when folks talk about corrupt Afghanis when you would first have to start throwing cuffs on folks at home.

    Afghan war started in October 2001 and was finished in December 2001 , in the meantime group of folks in Washington cooked up a plan how to best rob American taxpayers and that plan has been in play ever since with refinements and tweaks in between to keep the heist running for 20+ years.

    Biden Afghani 'withdrawal' unlike Trumps is just Kabuki theatre, the latest rebranding of an ongoing heist, most of the forces stay in Afghanistan, a bit fewer troops and more contractors but money will continue to flow into the bottomless pit. Even though the bombs and bullets are flying around the Hindukush the target of GWOT has always been the American taxpayer. AQ is as often US payroll as its on the pointy end of a bullet.

    These afghanis with ANA are not in for the fight,but like rest of Afghan society to make a buck while Uncle Sam is paying if there were other paying jobs for folks without skills they would be doing them not serving as cannon fodder for the Mayor of Kabul , US or any other warlord. When and if the dust settles they will be right back to their life in 'the middle ages' just on better roads and with more mobile phones.

    When it comes to the chopping of limbs or heads and stoning folks, most people misunderstand that it's not about fun and games, but a simple 'old testament' style justice system that was at one time or another practiced everywhere around the globe where ever society was at a tribal level, Primary purpose of the savagery is deterrent. For folks in third-world shitholes that serves much the same purpose as our modern justice and penal system but without the cost and complexity of the latter.

    Heroin trade.....At least at one time the Taliban had a handle on that.....

    1620066571681.png

    Amazing what has happened under our control.......its almost...like....its....intentional.


    Odd....I cant find data for the Trump years.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: jakelly

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    How is a guy driving a Toyota truck in fucking bum fuck Afghanistan going to use that against me in the US? He’s not. g’luck with that one.

    Funny thing is you honestly think the only way to serve your country, or only “me brave man” thing is signing up with the recruiter? Really?

    Want to save American lives, look at the number one killer in the US and fight that.

    Want to make the country strong, start a successful business.

    Im all for military as and when needed, Middle East ain’t it

    He wont.

    He sent 19 guys and stole planes.

    "Funny thing is you honestly think the only way to serve your country, or only “me brave man” thing is signing up with the recruiter? Really?"

    You were in London on St Crispins Day I take it.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: Texasflyer

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    Well, I can give you about 30 personal examples of this - where we 'saved' an 'innocent' minor, only to add him to the k/c list later on during the conflict.

    'War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...'

    Its terrible, but I dont lose any sleep about it. Debating the merits of the conflict, Im not convinced of the merits of why we were in either place, but having spent a majority of my adult life in one or the other, its not my job to debate the merits - just to win the 'war.' By winning, we need mouthbreathers like yourself full of self-proclaimed righteousness to either STFU, or join. Standing on the sidelines throwing rocks from a balsa wood and glass house doesn't do anybody any good. Insinuating I am complicit with ISIS? Nah man, I just do my job to the best of my abilities and try to protect as many innocent lives as possible while bringing my guys home.


    War is the ugliest of things.

    Probably only exceeded by the realization you didnt go to war when you should have.
     

    USMC_03XX

    Blaster
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 2, 2011
    249
    140
    38
    CA/MO
    War is the ugliest of things.

    Probably only exceeded by the realization you didnt go to war when you should have.
    I agree with you that war is terribly ugly. My quote was a J.S. Mills quote;
    'War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his personal safety is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertion of better men than himself' - or something like that.
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    War is the ugliest of things.

    Probably only exceeded by the realization you didnt go to war when you should have.

    I was a...little young for WWII or Korea.

    Even worse, signing up to get shot at in a battle where the only winners were ever going to be special interests (not America). At least the poor bastards in Vietnam could say they were forced into that clusterfuck.
     

    USMC_03XX

    Blaster
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 2, 2011
    249
    140
    38
    CA/MO
    I was a...little young for WWII or Korea.

    Even worse, signing up to get shot at in a battle where the only winners were ever going to be special interests (not America). At least the poor bastards in Vietnam could say they were forced into that clusterfuck.
    Hey man, whatever you need to think to make up for being a spineless 'that last war wasnt worth fighting, so I didnt fight' chickenshit.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    I agree with you that war is terribly ugly. My quote was a J.S. Mills quote;
    'War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his personal safety is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertion of better men than himself' - or something like that.


    100 percent.

    A more recent expression of that idea....

    “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
    ― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    I was a...little young for WWII or Korea.

    Even worse, signing up to get shot at in a battle where the only winners were ever going to be special interests (not America). At least the poor bastards in Vietnam could say they were forced into that clusterfuck.


    Did you for a moment wonder why at all the post election Trump rallies to stop the steal so many South Vietnam flags were in attendance?

    They were there because they were people that had lived the horror you so easily dismiss because through the sacrifice of others you have never had to contemplate it.

    The people carrying those flags are fully aware of where we are headed and they are scared shitless of having to suffer it a second time in their lives.

    1620068294467.png
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    Hey man, whatever you need to think to make up for being a spineless 'that last war wasnt worth fighting, so I didnt fight' chickenshit.

    Lol, sure bud

    While you were away, when shit happened to Americans it was folks like me who saved their bacon, but of course what I did was nothing compared to how you blowing up a goat farmer half a world away helped mainstreet.

    Are you one of those guys that just waits like a dog for a treat for someone to “thank you for your service” or knows every place with a veterans discount or parking space? I get that joining the military can become ones entire identity, especially in some demographics,l
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    Did you for a moment wonder why at all the post election Trump rallies to stop the steal so many South Vietnam flags were in attendance?

    They were there because they were people that had lived the horror you so easily dismiss because of the sacrifice of others.

    The people carrying those flags are fully aware of where we are headed and they are scared shitless of having to suffer it a second time in their lives.

    View attachment 7617352

    Trump did all sorts of things for those events, doesn’t make Vietnam any less of a fuck fest, and no, that’s pretty much been 100% proven to have been a bad idea as far as “wars” go.

    The only slight saving grace for all our war mongering has been what we have learned about combat and hopefully it will be worth it when the war with china comes.
     

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    War is the ugliest of things.

    Probably only exceeded by the realization you didnt go to war when you should have.
    Is it? I would argue that! I have seen both the best and worse in people during conflict! I have seen people put others lives before their own, tremendous acts of kindness and sacrifice tied to struggle and pain. War isn't the ugliest of things, some of what you do and experience in war is ugly but so is some of the shit we see in so called peace! Tragedy is everywhere and horrors are abound, don't fool yourself into thinking that those are only pertinent to war because thinking so is foolish!
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    Trump did all sorts of things for those events, doesn’t make Vietnam any less of a fuck fest, and no, that’s pretty much been 100% proven to have been a bad idea as far as “wars” go.

    The only slight saving grace for all our war mongering has been what we have learned about combat and hopefully it will be worth it when the war with china comes.

    Tell it to the people slaughtered in Hue.

    In hindsight we may consider the military effort not worth it but only because we didnt listen to sen McCarthy and take care of business here first.

    The people he warned us about were able to wound us with that war and they ensured a PAVN victory despite great soldier work on the part of the US.

    Tet was a US tactical victory that Cronkite turned into a strategic loss.

    The people that manufactured that loss are the same ones we fight now.

    They are long in the tooth and facing Satan.

    Trump fucked up a plan they expected to be complete in 2016.

    Thus that is the reasoning behind the visible mad dash now.

    If they were any sloppier in implementation the sheep may actually respond....therefore the guard must be maintained and audits can not happen.
     

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 16, 2017
    4,422
    4,893
    TEXAS
    He wont.

    He sent 19 guys and stole planes.

    "Funny thing is you honestly think the only way to serve your country, or only “me brave man” thing is signing up with the recruiter? Really?"

    You were in London on St Crispins Day I take it.
    Do you think that the military presence in afghanistan curbs Islamic terrorism everywhere else in the world? I don’t.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    Is it? I would argue that! I have seen both the best and worse in people during conflict! I have seen people put others lives before their own, tremendous acts of kindness and sacrifice tied to struggle and pain. War isn't the ugliest of things, some of what you do and experience in war is ugly but so is some of the shit we see in so called peace! Tragedy is everywhere and horrors are abound, don't fool yourself into thinking that those are only pertinent to war because thinking so is foolish!

    John 15:13 is truth and war is where it is frequently observed.

    My point is more along the lines of a Clement Attlee view point on the macro scale or from the perspective of the person that got on the train in the micro.

    The daily torment of thinking had they only "gone to war" when they had a chance and at best succeeded or worst been able to die with some dignity undefeated.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: stefan73

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 16, 2017
    4,422
    4,893
    TEXAS
    Hi,

    And what are you basing that opinion on?

    Visit different countries often?
    Have family in other countries that are having Islamic terrorism problems?

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    Reality. There wasn’t a problem before the US got involved either. I was no more or less likely to be in a terroristic event then or now. This war on terrorism campaign was used to strike fear into Americans in order to take away more freedoms here in the states and to enrich the well connected with taxpayer money during the war. Nothing more. Nothing less.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: THEIS

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    Do you think that the military presence in afghanistan curbs Islamic terrorism everywhere else in the world? I don’t.

    True belivers No.

    Secular Islamic regimes though looked at the Iraq war and curbed their belligerency.

    Quaddafi got reamed in the ass despite his compliance. They tried with Assad.

    Of course that wasnt our reason to fight in Iraq and only an unintended beneficial consequence that Hillary/Obama fucked up.

    The Taliban wasnt even a threat to us other than their choice to harbor Al-quaida.

    All they want to do is run their little piece of heaven like its the 7th century.....changing that is for their people to do and our only response should be to avoid helping them economically.

    But guys like Bin Ladin....no you cant let him get away with 9/11 and think that doing so wouldnt entice others to plan similar events.

    The 80s were a period of every week some sort of transportation being hijacked off with a dead American dumped on the tarmac or out of their wheel chair.

    Until fucks started to pay with their lives it was a good scam.
     

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 16, 2017
    4,422
    4,893
    TEXAS
    True belivers No.

    Secular Islamic regimes though looked at the Iraq war and curbed their belligerency.

    Quaddafi got reamed in the ass despite his compliance. They tried with Assad.

    Of course that wasnt our reason to fight in Iraq and only an unintended beneficial consequence that Hillary/Obama fucked up.

    The Taliban wasnt even a threat to us other than their choice to harbor Al-quaida.

    All they want to do is run their little piece of heaven like its the 7th century.....changing that is for their people to do and our only response should be to avoid helping them economically.

    But guys like Bin Ladin....no you cant let him get away with 9/11 and think that doing so wouldnt entice others to plan similar events.

    The 80s were a period of every week some sort of transportation being hijacked off with a dead American dumped on the tarmac or out of their wheel chair.

    Until fucks started to pay with their lives it was a good scam.
    I agree bad actors should suffer consequences. It doesn’t take twenty years and xray machines in airports to do it. When that happens, I question the motives.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    I agree bad actors should suffer consequences. It doesn’t take twenty years and xray machines in airports to do it. When that happens, I question the motives.


    Agreed our Patriotism was weaponized against us.

    We gave an inch they took a mile.

    If the gov was the same in WWII we would still have food rationing.

    but in regards to islamic extremists.....

    It has to be understood extremists of any stripe wont quit. Guys that just want to be in power though.....they realize "dead" isnt powerful.

    I love Constitution extremists.
     

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    Oh I agree, folks are scared of their own damn farts these days.

    Sadly that’s a feature not a flaw in the eyes of the state.
    My first time seeing fear was 9/11. I was leading the Torch party to NTC and our flight landed at Dallas because of the attacks (commercial flight and was in the air when the attacks happened). Had my guys pile up their bags together and stand watch over our gear. We had a little perimeter around all our gear, while I was giving some orders this civilian guy ran up and asked if we were military (like our backpacks and duffel bags don't give it away), I said "yes" and he ran off as quickly as he ran up to us. Two or three minutes later he had his family with their baggage and they moved into our little perimeter that we had so we could keep an eye on our gear (don't want that stuff "walking away"). Next thing I know more families did the same thing and our perimeter got bigger and bigger, it was wild, truly an eye opener but then so is peoples reaction to covid. Not sure when we became so fearful?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Sandhog308

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    Either did USSR and it didn't get them any where.
    Out by Mizan in southern Afghanistan is a hill of different colored soil than the surrounding terrain. The Russians took the local villagers and put them in their local mosque and then buried them in it. Russians deployed roughly 7 million landmines there if memory serves me correctly?

    It probably didn't help that we were funding and arming the mujahidin.
     
    Last edited:

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    Do you think that the military presence in afghanistan curbs Islamic terrorism everywhere else in the world? I don’t.
    I would argue that. People understand the stick better than they understand the carrot! Appeasement and turning the cheek doesn't work with extremists! Fact
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Davo308 and THEIS

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    My first time seeing fear was 9/11. I was leading the Torch party to NTC and our flight landed at Dallas because of the attacks (commercial flight and was in the air when the attacks happened). Had my guys pile up their bags together and stand watch over our gear. We had a little perimeter around all our gear, while I was giving some orders this civilian guy ran up and asked if we were military (like our backpacks and duffel bags don't give it away), I said "yes" and he ran off as quickly as he ran up to us. Two or three minutes later he had his family with their baggage and they moved into our little perimeter that we had so we could keep an eye on our gear (don't want that stuff "walking away"). Next thing I know more families did the same thing and our perimeter got bigger and bigger, it was wild, truly an eye opener but then so is peoples reaction to covid. Not sure when we became so fearful?

    I was working at a construction site in Cambridge.

    Kid came in to my office and said a plane crashed into WTC. I thought no big deal has happened before - tradgedy.

    Than it continued.

    The roads were jammed bumper to bumper with traffic for the next hour as people realized what was going on and began to flee the city.

    The labor steward came to me wide eyed and said he was going to the north shore getting in his sailboat and putting to sea. I pictured him running his three cylinder yanmar at flank speed to escape.

    After that hour of traffic we were the only contractors left on the job site, some of the few left in the dead quiet city the only sound was two fighters flying CAP over Boston. Eery as fuck.

    My only prior experience to war was as an observer in Liberia 1990. This felt way graver and we had bullets in Liberia.

    Driving home I remember shouting out my truck window to two kids hanging a flag vertical on their house that the blue field goes to the left not on the right and they gave me a thumbs up for the correction.

    Sleeping that night I was woke up by the lady across the street screaming in the middle of a warm night - she must of had a nightmare. Getting up to piss the only sound was the fighters still flying CAP.

    Fucking bad times while at the same time the unity of purpose made it a good time.

    Where we are today I think we fucked it up.

    We became so fearful when we encouraged victimization.

    That effort is at its zenith right now and it scares the shit out of me.

    While we raise boys to question their sexuality the Chinese are probably issuing puppies for their boys to raise and than as a graduation test they make them shoot and eat the puppy.

    Not saying I want that culture but our current one in which PT needs to watered down from its current minimums is going to leave us at serious disadvantage.

    The idea of honor and courage needs to be reinstilled.

    Just finished reading this...not much history more a rant about the pussification of America from the son of a Chosin warrior.

    1620072188394.png

    The idea of jumping on the grenade and fighting to the last used to be an ideal.......now I think people are being taught to consider those that would "suckers".
     
    Last edited:

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Sep 16, 2017
    4,422
    4,893
    TEXAS
    I would argue that. People understand the stick better than they understand the carrot! Appeasement and turning the cheek doesn't work with extremists! Fact
    Unfortunately this was never our gov’ts motivation. It’s just how they sold it to the public. Soldiers haven’t been dying for their country. They are dying for their governments political leaders and backers. It’s all a big lie.

    Our soldiers are over seas fighting against a manufactured threat while their own country is crumbling at the hands of a real domestic threat. Government sponsored propaganda is effective. Look at the response to this fake pandemic.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: TurboTrout

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    I was working at a construction site in Cambridge.

    Kid came in to my office and said a plane crashed into WTC. I thought no big deal has happened before - tradgedy.

    Than it continued.

    The roads were jammed bumper to bumper with traffic for the next hour as people realized what was going on and began to flee the city.

    The labor steward came to me wide eyed and said he was going to the north shore getting in his sailboat and putting to sea. I pictured him running his three cylinder yanmar at flank speed to escape.

    After that hour of traffic we were the only contractors left on the job site, some of the few left in the dead quiet city the only sound was two fighters flying CAP over Boston. Eery as fuck.

    My only prior experience to war was as an observer in Liberia 1990. This felt way graver.

    Driving home I remember shouting out my truck window to two kids hanging a flag vertical on their house that the blue field goes to the left not on the right and they gave me a thumbs up for the correction.

    Sleeping that night I was woke up by the lady across the street screaming in the middle of a warm night - she must of had a nightmare. Getting up to piss the only sound was the fighters still flying CAP.

    Fucking bad times while at the same time the unity of purpose made it a good time.

    Where we are today I think we fucked it up.

    Nah the dancing around the flag back then was a sign of it, people being the scared of a isolated attack, thinking giving up their rights makes them safe, frankly Franklin was correct, those who give up freedom for safety deserve what they get.

    I think our downward spiral really picked up speed around the 90s, when government turned from a servant of the country, to almost a religious institution.

    Look at sportsball, with all the military and flag waving at the start, it’s a giant tucking statist commercial. And lots of stupid people who don’t see how being a statist and a patriotic are two very different things, with two very different roles they see the state in. Plus we became a welfare state, you got the police on the tax payers tit chasing the hoodlums we keep locked in our “projects” who are in the tax payers tit. Now the start of this goes back to the 60s, and incentivizing poor people to have kids didn’t help. But whatever, now we have massive swaths of people who are ether mentally, or both physically and mentally, dependent on the government, so shits just going to keep going the way it’s going shy of a MAJOR gov getting it’s shit pushed in event, like a revolution (not likely) or the upcoming war with china.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: stefan73

    MK20

    Major Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 17, 2018
    1,969
    2,794
    The land of many waters
    @TheGerman if you think that video is bad, wait until you see Central African guys shoot. I watched a Ugandan soldier miss a full size silhouette target at 3 meters with his AK slow fire and he expended about half a mag.
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    1,096
    862
    East Coast
    Unfortunately this was never our gov’ts motivation. It’s just how they sold it to the public. Soldiers haven’t been dying for their country. They are dying for their governments political leaders and backers. It’s all a big lie.

    Our soldiers are over seas fighting against a manufactured threat while their own country is crumbling at the hands of a real domestic threat. Government sponsored propaganda is effective. Look at the response to this fake pandemic.

    True, but semantics, if you look at the definition for a pandemic this qualifies, as does almost every flu season, but yeah, clearly from the start our reaction to the wuhan flu was 100x worse than the 99.9% survivable bug.
     

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    I was working at a construction site in Cambridge.

    Kid came in to my office and said a plane crashed into WTC. I thought no big deal has happened before - tradgedy.

    Than it continued.

    The roads were jammed bumper to bumper with traffic for the next hour as people realized what was going on and began to flee the city.

    The labor steward came to me wide eyed and said he was going to the north shore getting in his sailboat and putting to sea. I pictured him running his three cylinder yanmar at flank speed to escape.

    After that hour of traffic we were the only contractors left on the job site, some of the few left in the dead quiet city the only sound was two fighters flying CAP over Boston. Eery as fuck.

    My only prior experience to war was as an observer in Liberia 1990. This felt way graver and we had bullets in Liberia.

    Driving home I remember shouting out my truck window to two kids hanging a flag vertical on their house that the blue field goes to the left not on the right and they gave me a thumbs up for the correction.

    Sleeping that night I was woke up by the lady across the street screaming in the middle of a warm night - she must of had a nightmare. Getting up to piss the only sound was the fighters still flying CAP.

    Fucking bad times while at the same time the unity of purpose made it a good time.

    Where we are today I think we fucked it up.

    We became so fearful when we encouraged victimization.

    That effort is at its zenith right now and it scares the shit out of me.

    While we raise boys to question their sexuality the Chinese are probably issuing puppies for their boys to raise and than as a graduation test they make them shoot and eat the puppy.

    Not saying i want that culture but our current one in which PT needs to waered down from its current minimums is going to leave us at serious disadvantage.

    The idea of honor and courage needs to be reinstilled.

    Just finished reading this...

    View attachment 7617406

    The idea of jumping on the grenade and fighting to the last used to be an ideal.......now I think people are being taught to consider those that would "suckers".
    2006 a soldier jumped on a grenade in Adhamiyah Baghdad to shield the rest of the guys in the HMMWV from the blast. He was up at the palace there with my sister Mitt that we had been assisting (things were getting a little wild up there, it's also where my HMMWV caught fire which is another story). https://littlethings.com/lifestyle/ross-a-mcginnis-war-hero/831331-10
     

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    @TheGerman if you think that video is bad, wait until you see Central African guys shoot. I watched a Ugandan soldier miss a full size silhouette target at 3 meters with his AK slow fire and he expended about half a mag.
    2006, Iraqi army soldiers got involved in "contact in Ur a district NE Baghdad. 2,000 rounds later from PKM's, some DSKH and a lot of AK and the only thing they hit was an 80 year old lady (thank God it was an extremely minor injury). Craziest thing was watching an Iraqi HMMWV with a DSKH mounted blazing down the main street in Baghdad. The shit you see
     
    • Like
    Reactions: camocorvette

    roostercogburn98

    Private
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 3, 2010
    2,655
    5,553
    2006, Iraqi army soldiers got involved in "contact in Ur a district NE Baghdad. 2,000 rounds later from PKM's, some DSKH and a lot of AK and the only thing they hit was an 80 year old lady (thank God it was an extremely minor injury). Craziest thing was watching an Iraqi HMMWV with a DSKH mounted blazing down the main street in Baghdad. The shit you see
    That good sir had a name. It is called the “iraqi death blossom”
     

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    That good sir had a name. It is called the “iraqi death blossom”
    I know some guys that had a part in a "thunder run" up there in Adhamiyah and had to have an emergency ammo resupply done when the Iraqi Army expended all their ammo. The street they went down looked like it was gold the morning after when I drove down it from all the brass on the street with the morning sun hitting it. It was incredible, they didn't hit shit but still.
     

    Shooter McGavin

    NTRP TEAM MEMBER #33
    Supporter
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 22, 2009
    1,305
    1,875
    Some where in the US
    Out by Mizan in southern Afghanistan is a hill of different colored soil than the surrounding terrain. The Russians took the local villagers and put them in their local mosque and then buried them in it. Russians deployed roughly 7 million landmines there if memory serves me correctly?

    It probably didn't help that we were funding and arming the mujahidin.
    I bet we will do the same to China, since they have a 25 year agreement with Iran
     
    • Like
    Reactions: stefan73

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    I bet we will do the same to China, since they have a 25 year agreement with Iran
    Only reason Iran is playing with China is because China is the enemy of their enemy. China is not a friend of Muslims! Iran understands this and so does the rest of the world but Iran would love to take a shot at the US every chance it can get and having China's backing is an assist. For China, anything to destabilize the area and draw attention from China as it tries to expand to the other territories it claims belongs to them supports their agenda, plus Iranian oil.
     

    Mr.BR

    Private
    PX Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 5, 2017
    1,806
    2,087
    True belivers No.

    Secular Islamic regimes though looked at the Iraq war and curbed their belligerency.

    Quaddafi got reamed in the ass despite his compliance. They tried with Assad.

    Of course that wasnt our reason to fight in Iraq and only an unintended beneficial consequence that Hillary/Obama fucked up.

    The Taliban wasnt even a threat to us other than their choice to harbor Al-quaida.

    All they want to do is run their little piece of heaven like its the 7th century.....changing that is for their people to do and our only response should be to avoid helping them economically.

    But guys like Bin Ladin....no you cant let him get away with 9/11 and think that doing so wouldnt entice others to plan similar events.

    The 80s were a period of every week some sort of transportation being hijacked off with a dead American dumped on the tarmac or out of their wheel chair.

    Until fucks started to pay with their lives it was a good scam.
    Like said GWOT Afghanistan lasted from October till end of December 2001 when there were estimated some 80 AQ folks in Afghanistan rest was a big grift for taxpayer money , nothing to do with fighting terrorism .

    Last i remember 9/11 crew were Saudi nationals on Student visas ,Bin laden was Saudi national and Islamic terror is pretty much cornered by Saudi Arabia (No1 US ally in the region)or their Wahabis, most of the Afghan and Pakistani madrasas were/are funded by CGG Kingdoms .

    If GWOT target was Islamic terrorism the aim was on the level of ANA troops, hitting everything but the bull, the Islamic terror'R'us HQ also known as Kingdom of Saudi Arabia .

    Mean while the situation on the ground is way worse than it was at the time of Soviet withdrawal, ANA is a joke compared to DRA .
     
    • Like
    Reactions: TurboTrout

    stefan73

    Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 6, 2006
    1,002
    490
    CENLA
    John 15:13 is truth and war is where it is frequently observed.

    My point is more along the lines of a Clement Attlee view point on the macro scale or from the perspective of the person that got on the train in the micro.

    The daily torment of thinking had they only "gone to war" when they had a chance and at best succeeded or worst been able to die with some dignity undefeated.
    Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    I saw this, hard to see but I did. The aftermath weighed heavy.

    Interesting, I had to fight to deploy because of a broken clavicle. The perspective fits when you loose a Soldier or a former Soldier of yours and you aren't there in theater.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 6, 2011
    23,596
    37,159
    53
    MA
    Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    I saw this, hard to see but I did. The aftermath weighed heavy.

    Interesting, I had to fight to deploy because of a broken clavicle. The perspective fits when you loose a Soldier or a former Soldier of yours and you aren't there in theater.

    Never was an active participant and hope to never be.

    I was with in a 6 man det in the midst of a civil war and both sides were looking at the US as the problem.

    Lots of incoming rifle fire , Katusha rockets flying over head and a 105 that landed just off the compound.

    It was a "fun" time in that the 6 of us bonded up good. We played tennis with the occasional stray round hitting the courts.

    It was us against the rest of Liberia and we were sure we would take them all on.

    Remember getting a letter from my sister telling me I should dessert as the news here was painting a bleak picture.

    That was funny, like I would walk down to the non-existant travel office and just leave Liberia.....
     

    Doc68

    Almost a doctor
    Supporter
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Feb 17, 2014
    3,409
    5,564
    CO, Fort Carson
    You honestly believe that?

    If some kid is in a building a terrorist is in, just blow him up too? You should get a job with the isis recruiting department, you’d be great lol
    Or watch a 14yr old boy emplace an IED and have to treat him after it detonated while he was emplacing it. Yeah, unless you were there, stfu.

    Doc