Oh Afghanistan, how I miss you

pmclaine

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    Like said GWOT Afghanistan lasted from October till end of December 2001 when there were estimated some 80 AQ folks in Afghanistan rest was a big grift for taxpayer money , nothing to do with fighting terrorism .

    Last i remember 9/11 crew were Saudi nationals on Student visas ,Bin laden was Saudi national and Islamic terror is pretty much cornered by Saudi Arabia (No1 US ally in the region)or their Wahabis, most of the Afghan and Pakistani madrasas were/are funded by CGG Kingdoms .

    If GWOT target was Islamic terrorism the aim was on the level of ANA troops, hitting everything but the bull, the Islamic terror'R'us HQ also known as Kingdom of Saudi Arabia .

    Mean while the situation on the ground is way worse than it was at the time of Soviet withdrawal, ANA is a joke compared to DRA .


    I defer to the memory of those that were there but if truth of the Tora Bora fighting is what was reported, US took the perimeter in order to give the friendly mujahidin the final victory, than it just shows that Afghanistan was intended to be a drawn out money maker....

    Pretty sure they would have never left those caves unless we wanted them to.

    There are still Japanese bones sitting patiently in the Pacific islands because we intended them to stay there.

    or.....

    Everything that followed after the caves were sealed could be myth.

    A people that spent that much in lives and treasure deserved proof of Bin Ladins death.

    The burial at sea with full honors strikes me as an unserious way to handle that.
     
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    wade2big

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    Or watch a 14yr old boy emplace an IED and have to treat him after it detonated while he was emplacing it. Yeah, unless you were there, stfu.

    Doc
    Come on @Doc68, if everyone was held to this standard then there wouldn’t be much to talk about.
     
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    EddieNFL

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    eve·ry·one
    /ˈevrēˌwən/

    Learn to pronounce


    pronoun
    pronoun: everyone

    1. Every person.
    2. Immediate expert in the topic at hand. Typically holds multiple internet conferred degrees.
    3. Sleeps with lots of women "She sleeps with Everyone."
     

    TurboTrout

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    Or watch a 14yr old boy emplace an IED and have to treat him after it detonated while he was emplacing it. Yeah, unless you were there, stfu.

    Doc

    That surprises...no one.

    Did you not know that type of shit happens over there before you took the job?
     

    pmclaine

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    That surprises...no one.

    Did you not know that type of shit happens over there before you took the job?


    You are Susan Sarandon aren't you?


    Man the video of you saying Troops "get enough and dont deserve more" has been deep scrubbed from the internet.....got the masters of the universe covering for you, huh?
     

    TurboTrout

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    You are Susan Sarandon aren't you?


    Man the video of you saying Troops "get enough and dont deserve more" has been deep scrubbed from the internet.....got the masters of the universe covering for you, huh?

    How’d you guess! I also have obama and George sorrows over there too, were binge watching CNN and eating aborted Christian fetuses 🙄

    So my question is valid, you said that like it was going to come as a shock, it really didn’t shock me, or probably most anyone, were you unaware on such things when you signed up????
     

    pmclaine

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    How’d you guess! I also have obama and George sorrows over there too, were binge watching CNN and eating aborted Christian fetuses 🙄

    So my question is valid, you said that like it was going to come as a shock, it really didn’t shock me, or probably most anyone, were you unaware on such things when you signed up????

    I think those guys went there to fight the guy that forces the 14 year old to do that shit.....not the 14 year old kid.
     

    TurboTrout

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    I think those guys went there to fight the guy that forces the 14 year old to do that shit.....not the 14 year old kid.

    How about just not blow up 14yr olds lol

    Not with a vest
    Not with a guided bomb

    Also you can’t get blown up by insurgents if you’re not occupying a middle eastern country.




    9bc662b38ef9b42e1ef496921fe1b7db.jpeg


    We need one of those big signs in front of the pentagon

    “It’s been X days since we occupied a third world country”
     

    Oldloser

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    Do you think that the military presence in afghanistan curbs Islamic terrorism everywhere else in the world? I don’t.
    Iraq and Afghanistan were bug lights for jihadis from all over. Every damn jihadi idiot came for the party and got whacked. It gave Saudi and Lebanon a huge breather. Kind of like what Hungary did to the Mongols. Same as Vietnam did to the Soviets. Or Malta to the Ottomans. While we should have gotten out of Afghanistan about ten years ago, jihadism is now a spent force.
     

    stefan73

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    Never was an active participant and hope to never be.

    I was with in a 6 man det in the midst of a civil war and both sides were looking at the US as the problem.

    Lots of incoming rifle fire , Katusha rockets flying over head and a 105 that landed just off the compound.

    It was a "fun" time in that the 6 of us bonded up good. We played tennis with the occasional stray round hitting the courts.

    It was us against the rest of Liberia and we were sure we would take them all on.

    Remember getting a letter from my sister telling me I should dessert as the news here was painting a bleak picture.

    That was funny, like I would walk down to the non-existant travel office and just leave Liberia.....
    My second tour was An Najaf, Iraq. There was an airport and flights from Jordan. I told my wife to fly in and that I would meet her at the plane with my armored vehicles. She didn't visit of course. The COP's I stayed in were so small that trying to mortar them was a waste of time because they just missed. Baghdad, they did happen to waste a generator that provided us with power. I got to enjoy katusha rockets, 107's.
     
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    Doc68

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    That surprises...no one.

    Did you not know that type of shit happens over there before you took the job?
    Banned finally...

    I knew exactly what I was getting into. I had already been a paramedic for 10 years before I came into the army.

    However watching that shit happen WILL fuck with you.

    You truly are a piece of shit in my book. No balls to serve but want to knock those who did.

    Doc
     

    Huskydriver

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    My second tour was An Najaf, Iraq. There was an airport and flights from Jordan. I told my wife to fly in and that I would meet her at the plane with my armored vehicles. She didn't visit of course. The COP's I stayed in were so small that trying to mortar them was a waste of time because they just missed. Baghdad, they did happen to waste a generator that provided us with power. I got to enjoy katusha rockets, 107's.

    Here is part of a 107 that almost had my name on it.... The sound of those things coming in is wild
    DSC00337.JPG
     

    RGStory

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    As a country that elects dipshits and than promotes a mil leadership that is "go along to get along"....we have lacked the understanding of strategy since 1945.

    I would like to see a requirement that before using more than punitive, exigent circumstances, force that the civilian govt must define an achievable strategy with specific goals and actually go on record with declaring war.

    Tactics would be left entirely to the military.

    "War on Terror" is not a strategy that can ever be achieved.

    A declaration of war would also require immediate implementation of a draft. The greatest part of the population must "have skin in the game" rather than requiring the fraction of 1% shoulder the burden.

    Wars would not last twenty years, nor have rules of engagement favoring the enemy over our own, if every parent in America was concerned their kid could be going to war. Parents will be holding politicians accountable and they will be willing to see the arty used if it means their kid lives.

    It seems to me our strategy these days is designed with mission creep in order to keep the fat contracts flowing.

    Afghanistan should have been the most justified war ever with the clearest defined/achievable strategy.

    "Locate, close with and destroy all or any that interfere with the capture or killing of these members of Al Qaida (insert names here) that planned and executed the 9/11 attacks.

    The military is authorized to employee all conventional tactics, nuclear options are available depending on situation, to meet this mission with the protection of US life as primary concern and within the accepted practices of the law of war while understanding that the maximum use of force to bring about the expeditious achievement of US goals will limit loss of life amongst combatants and civilians.

    Hostilities will end and are limited to the capture or killing of those named herein. Within 30 days of achieving this strategy all US forces will be withdrawn from the war theater. All US equipment unable to be repatriated will be blown up or otherwise destroyed. Performing public works and foreign aid while in the area of operations is a goodwill gesture but "nation building" is prohibited with the understanding the native population determines their own forms of government"

    Sounds like your a proponent of returning to the Weinberger Doctrine.
     

    Jim Out

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    Provide evidence
    SIGAR

    Part of Candidate Butigeg's "service" was funneling funds to Afghan warlords.

    When CI sources provided intel, prosecution was precluded.

    Sources were then .........

    Read the report
     

    Attachments

    • SIGAR-18-51-AR - Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction - SIGAR.pdf
      3.5 MB · Views: 16

    308pirate

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    SIGAR

    Part of Candidate Butigeg's "service" was funneling funds to Afghan warlords.

    When CI sources provided intel, prosecution was precluded.

    Sources were then .........

    Read the report
    Why we went and why we stayed are two different stories.

    Or maybe not
     
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    Jim Out

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    Why we went and why we stayed are two different stories.

    Or maybe not
    I don't think that's what the report states

    Special Inspector General for
    Afghanistan Reconstruction

    p 34:
    Prosecutors Are Using Their Prosecutorial Discretion to Avoid Cases against Powerful Actors
    U.S. and Afghan government officials report that prosecutors often choose not to pursue cases without
    communicating why, and that both the AGO and ACJC have used their prosecutorial discretion largely to punish
    low-ranking officials rather than high-ranking ones. In other cases, they have failed to take advantage of legal
    tools and techniques, such as using cooperating witnesses and money-laundering charges to pursue cases

    against the highest culpable party. Furthermore, Afghanistan's legal framework prevents the ACJC from
    pursuing cases against certain categories of officials. U.S. and international officials say this all creates a
    sense that certain powerful individuals are effectively above the law.

    p37:
    In one example, U.S. and international officials raised concerns about the case involving Kamran Alizai, the
    President of the Herat Provincial Council. After Alizai was caught on camera abusing his authority and using
    armed men to intimidate local prosecutors into releasing a jailed associate, prosecutors indicted him and
    brought his case before the ACJC. Grassroots organizers in Herat also raised awareness about Alizai’s abuses.
    However, the ACJC Primary Court only required Alizai to remain under house arrest in the Herat MOI VIP
    guesthouse, convicted him of abuse of power in absentia, and sentenced him to 2.5 years in prison, below the
    threshold needed to prevent him from holding public office. In a series of non-public and unpublicized
    proceedings, the ACJC Appeals Court reduced Alizai’s sentence to 8 months, with the prosecutor for the state
    declining to defend the original sentence. The Supreme Court then reduced it again, also without any
    publication of its decision, to a fine between $175 and $187. International donors only became aware of this
    decision two months after the fact, owing to proactive follow-up. U.S. officials told us that Alizai then ordered
    the assassination of a civil society organizer who helped build the case against him.


    Why we went -----> $$$$$$

    Why we stayed ------>$$$$$$$$$$$$

    ssdd
     

    Attachments

    • SIGAR-18-51-AR - Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction - SIGAR.pdf
      3.5 MB · Views: 1
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    308pirate

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    I don't think that's what the report states

    Special Inspector General for
    Afghanistan Reconstruction

    p 34:
    Prosecutors Are Using Their Prosecutorial Discretion to Avoid Cases against Powerful Actors
    U.S. and Afghan government officials report that prosecutors often choose not to pursue cases without
    communicating why, and that both the AGO and ACJC have used their prosecutorial discretion largely to punish
    low-ranking officials rather than high-ranking ones. In other cases, they have failed to take advantage of legal
    tools and techniques, such as using cooperating witnesses and money-laundering charges to pursue cases

    against the highest culpable party. Furthermore, Afghanistan's legal framework prevents the ACJC from
    pursuing cases against certain categories of officials. U.S. and international officials say this all creates a
    sense that certain powerful individuals are effectively above the law.

    p37:
    In one example, U.S. and international officials raised concerns about the case involving Kamran Alizai, the
    President of the Herat Provincial Council. After Alizai was caught on camera abusing his authority and using
    armed men to intimidate local prosecutors into releasing a jailed associate, prosecutors indicted him and
    brought his case before the ACJC. Grassroots organizers in Herat also raised awareness about Alizai’s abuses.
    However, the ACJC Primary Court only required Alizai to remain under house arrest in the Herat MOI VIP
    guesthouse, convicted him of abuse of power in absentia, and sentenced him to 2.5 years in prison, below the
    threshold needed to prevent him from holding public office. In a series of non-public and unpublicized
    proceedings, the ACJC Appeals Court reduced Alizai’s sentence to 8 months, with the prosecutor for the state
    declining to defend the original sentence. The Supreme Court then reduced it again, also without any
    publication of its decision, to a fine between $175 and $187. International donors only became aware of this
    decision two months after the fact, owing to proactive follow-up. U.S. officials told us that Alizai then ordered
    the assassination of a civil society organizer who helped build the case against him.


    Why we went -----> $$$$$$

    Why we stayed ------>$$$$$$$$$$$$

    ssdd

    See what you want to see
     

    wade2big

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    Banned finally...

    I knew exactly what I was getting into. I had already been a paramedic for 10 years before I came into the army.

    However watching that shit happen WILL fuck with you.

    You truly are a piece of shit in my book. No balls to serve but want to knock those who did.

    Doc
    I didn't see him knock anyone who served. He just pointed out the cluster fuck that has been going on for the last twenty years just as some of you guys that served did. He just did it from a different perspective. His point was that it is not a secret what goes on over there and when a man signs up for it then he knows he will be doing/seeing some questionable stuff. He did not denounce anyone's career choice. He just acknowledged that it was a career CHOICE and told it like it was with no filter which hurts peoples feelings sometimes.

    His opinion was that serving in this capacity isn't so much serving your country as it is serving your politicians and their people. There is a difference and I agree. It's a shame the govt is doing this to our soldiers. These young men need to understand this before they make the choice to enlist. It's up to them after that.
     

    RGStory

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    It looks good on paper....


    But if it was adopted as a result to avoid responding to the Barracks Bombing it was in error on that point.

    It should have been adopted prior to the "Peace Keeping" mission.

    Agreed. To be fair, it had been circulating as a concept prior to the bombing. It was more a of lessons learned from the Vietnam War. Colin Powell reiterated it in a different format so it is sometimes referred to as the Weinberger-Powell doctrine.

    The problem I see with the doctrine, is that it is rarely used prior to a conflict and was only employed for a brief period during the 80's - 90's. Often it is used post conflict as an analytical tool. I expect it will come up more frequently in press and publications as we progress through the next phase in Afghanistan. The most poignant criticism I read centers around restricting the use military force for political maneuvering internationally.

    The invasion of Panama is the best example I know of that applied it in the planning phase.

    I have attached two articles, one for and one against the doctrine for those that are interested.
    The Airforce Magazine article does a decent job of going over the history of its formulation. The Army paper shows how it is used as a post conflict tool of analysis.
     

    Attachments

    • The Weinberger Doctrine and the Liberation of Kuwait.pdf
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    • The Weinberger Doctrine by John T Correll - Airforce Magazine 01032014.pdf
      1.8 MB · Views: 3

    Shooter McGavin

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    Only reason Iran is playing with China is because China is the enemy of their enemy. China is not a friend of Muslims! Iran understands this and so does the rest of the world but Iran would love to take a shot at the US every chance it can get and having China's backing is an assist. For China, anything to destabilize the area and draw attention from China as it tries to expand to the other territories it claims belongs to them supports their agenda, plus Iranian oil.
    As far as China killing the Uyghurs, they are Sunnis. Iranians are Shia, so they don't care. As far as Iran taking a shot at the US I agree with you.
     

    stefan73

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    As far as China killing the Uyghurs, they are Sunnis. Iranians are Shia, so they don't care. As far as Iran taking a shot at the US I agree with you.
    I can see that, especially so with Irans involvement with the proxy fights against Saudi.
     

    Shooter McGavin

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    @stefan73

    I hope the Chinese are making a deal with the devil and it bites them in the ass. My wife is from Taiwan. She is mix of aboriginal (the Puyuma tribe), Dutch, Japanese and Chinese. She hates China (the Government and some of the people because they're rude).
     
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    THEIS

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    Hi,

    China is getting ready to roll into Afghanistan with the largest, most heavily trained PMC on this planet!!

    Now if someone can just tell me how an American can own such percentage of that company without it violating EVERY DDTC ITAR section on the books or how he can not be charged with certain International criminal codes then please let me know, lolol

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    stefan73

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    @stefan73

    I hope the Chinese are making a deal with the devil and it bites them in the ass. My wife is from Taiwan. She is mix of aboriginal (the Puyuma tribe), Dutch, Japanese and Chinese. She hates China (the Government and some of the people because they're rude).
    I feel for the people of Taiwan, being in a contested area with someone that doesn't follow any rules.
     

    stefan73

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    Hi,

    China is getting ready to roll into Afghanistan with the largest, most heavily trained PMC on this planet!!

    Now if someone can just tell me how an American can own such percentage of that company without it violating EVERY DDTC ITAR section on the books or how he can not be charged with certain International criminal codes then please let me know, lolol

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    What are they paying? :unsure: 😁 😁 😁
     

    yocan

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    Well we did a good job increasing heroine production to fund the genocide in syria. China could absolutely win in Afghanistan send everyone to internment camps. Re educate them and sell their organs to the EU who in exchange will look the other way.
     

    Shooter McGavin

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    I feel for the people of Taiwan, being in a contested area with someone that doesn't follow any rules.
    The funny thing is the Taiwanese don't think it should be contested. Japan ruled over Taiwan for 50 years before America made the Japanese give the island back to the ROC. The ROC still is in Taiwan. They fled to Taiwan after the PRC kicked them out of main land China. The ROC was part of the UN until 1971. The UN kicked them out and gave their place to the PRC.

    Also, the younger generations who have never lived under the PRC rule want Taiwan to be sovereign. Even more so after seeing what China did to Hong Kong. The KMT which use to rule all of China and was force to Taiwan has lost favor with the younger voters because of its one China policy. The older generation would still like to reunite under the ROC, but that will never happen and they are dying off.
     

    Oldloser

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    True, but semantics, if you look at the definition for a pandemic this qualifies, as does almost every flu season, but yeah, clearly from the start our reaction to the wuhan flu was 100x worse than the 99.9% survivable bug.

    i took a bio war class at the end of the Cold War. The instructors dusted the door knob with dust unbeknownst to us. At the end of the day they brought out the black light and it was all over us. If it had been anthrax or small pox we’d been dead in three days. Needless to say we paid attention from then on. The wuhan flu was no pandemic.

    It looks good on paper....


    But if it was adopted as a result to avoid responding to the Barracks Bombing it was in error on that point.

    It should have been adopted prior to the "Peace Keeping" mission.

    A few loaded fifty cals covering the road and a zigzag at the barracks and it would be a different story today.

    Beirut was one cluster after the other starting with Buckley’s kidnapping. Steiner told Buckley he was a target and he just kept amateuring on. This led to a loss of our humint. The lack of hard security and hard ROE allowed the bomber to get in despite the detoriating security and warnings from locals about car bombs. it was a planned campaign. Anyone stepping back could see this coming.
     

    slowworm

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    Ever heard of 9/11 fuckhead?

    Every one of then was known to the FBI. The FBI failed, or perhaps did as it was told, and then 9/11 happened. Just as they have with every "lone wolf" since. That cannot be by chance or accident.

    The GWOT started out as a clusterfuck by the FBI and has remained a clusterfuck. It was preventable. Every single person involved in that intelligence failure should have been fired, in the same way I would get fired for that.

    Corporations and politicians have gotten rich and our sons and daughters have been maimed and killed. While the idea of a GWOT may have been sound, it's been executed badly and managed by people who are at best very naïve about the middle east, or just plan didn't care because they profited by it. Heck, I'm convinced that more than a couple of politicians deliberately made it worse.

    When all is said and done, no-one but 19 hijackers needed to die 20 years ago.
     

    Clearlight

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    It's a tricky thing over there. The problem isn't that we lack people who know what they're doing, but instead, the bare basics of alot of things we take as common knowledge, aren't. For alot of people in the provinces in the mountains or in the middle of literally nowhere, shit like cars and electricity are some sort of magical wonder.

    Alot are also under the impression that joining with the US .mil will have them not do much as we'll just push a button and the bad guys die. They also think given the fancy equipment, its the same with the new shooter buying a 7k scope and thinking he's a .5 MOA shooter all of a sudden. These guys lack the basic knowledge of turning a light switch on or changing a pair of AA batteries - the amount of actual training they need is generational.

    The idea of training the peasants to properly fight, instead of just letting them get in the way of the enemy, was refined by Nobumasa (spelling?) in the mid/late 1500s in feudal Japan. He realized that if you actually gave your peasant army a little respect, actual equipment and real training, they not only followed you, but could fight the samurai on the opposing side as an organized force. The difference is that the peasants for the most part knew what everything was and needed to just be trained/allowed to be trained whereas the Afghanistan fighting age men that aren't trained by fire in the Taliban, basically know less than anyone.
    Yes indeed. Our end goal dictates the resources we allocate to training. So many other
    issues attached to training too, will family and friends get targeted for assisting us etc etc?
    Particularly difficult in remote areas as you said, if we’re not there 24/7 it goes to shit very
    quickly. Best we could hope for is to win a few friends during our time there. Without long
    term expensive support, it’s hard to imagine them being effective.

    Then there’s the issue of ’green’ staff working both sides. Buddy just told me of a story about
    a green cook in an FOB. There was the occasional round dropping into camp, they caught the
    cook on a cell phone, calling shot fall for tali on a hill a mile away, with an an old 8mm Mauser...
     
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    stefan73

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    Yes indeed. Our end goal dictates the resources we allocate to training. So many other
    issues attached to training too, will family and friends get targeted for assisting us etc etc?
    Particularly difficult in remote areas as you said, if we’re not there 24/7 it goes to shit very
    quickly. Best we could hope for is to win a few friends during our time there. Without long
    term expensive support, it’s hard to imagine them being effective.

    Then there’s the issue of ’green’ staff working both sides. Buddy just told me of a story about
    a green cook in an FOB. There was the occasional round dropping into camp, they caught the
    cook on a cell phone, calling shot fall for tali on a hill a mile away, with an an old 8mm Mauser...
    Lost a soldier to green on blue in Afghanistan, 2012 at FOB Apache, Qalat Afghanistan.
     

    Badjujuu

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    We would trade the polish soldiers combat shirts for bottles of vodka. They had plenty and we had plenty of combat shirts.

    Doc
    APR2010 to NOV2011....fob ghazni...soo much booze...but"vodka"? 🤣🤣🤣 cmon.....i knew what i was drinking....
     
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    Davo308

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    The funny thing is the Taiwanese don't think it should be contested. Japan ruled over Taiwan for 50 years before America made the Japanese give the island back to the ROC. The ROC still is in Taiwan. They fled to Taiwan after the PRC kicked them out of main land China. The ROC was part of the UN until 1971. The UN kicked them out and gave their place to the PRC.

    Also, the younger generations who have never lived under the PRC rule want Taiwan to be sovereign. Even more so after seeing what China did to Hong Kong. The KMT which use to rule all of China and was force to Taiwan has lost favor with the younger voters because of its one China policy. The older generation would still like to reunite under the ROC, but that will never happen and they are dying off.

    Have you heard anything about their thoughts on Biden?
     

    DROWN

    Sergeant of the Hide
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    Oct 31, 2019
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    I for one can't wait to see the Chinese stuck there for 20 years with nothing to show for it.
    I hope you are right, but IMO China has no moral code other than winning. Until we adopt the same mindset they will continue to lie and cheat and fuck us over every chance they get whether its legit or not. The Chinese Gov. is an existential threat to our way of life and we should adopt the same mindset they have, win at all cost at every opportunity. I ain't served in Afghanistan, but I've lived in China plenty long to see the way they operate. Those are tough people with a fighting spirit that we would do well to respect as a worthy enemy.
     

    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
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    Sep 16, 2017
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    I hope you are right, but IMO China has no moral code other than winning. Until we adopt the same mindset they will continue to lie and cheat and fuck us over every chance they get whether its legit or not. The Chinese Gov. is an existential threat to our way of life and we should adopt the same mindset they have, win at all cost at every opportunity. I ain't served in Afghanistan, but I've lived in China plenty long to see the way they operate. Those are tough people with a fighting spirit that we would do well to respect as a worthy enemy.
    Like the Chinese gov’t, ours is an existential threat to our way of life as well and much closer to home. Right along with the corporate oligarchs.

    I assume work took you to China. Do you speak Mandarin?
     

    DROWN

    Sergeant of the Hide
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    Oct 31, 2019
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    Like the Chinese gov’t, ours is an existential threat to our way of life as well and much closer to home. Right along with the corporate oligarchs.

    I assume work took you to China. Do you speak Mandarin?
    Not work. My ex took me. I learned enough to get by. Lived in Tier 1 and 2 cities on the east coast. Traveled everywhere I could, every chance I had. Was there for G20 summit in 2016 and saw how a true authoritarian regime operates. The way Chinese gov. treats its own people is in a different league. We still have it good here. Just got to keep our eyes open.
     
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    steve podleski

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    There was an article in Military History magazine years ago.
    It had a complete historical timeline of every conquest of Afghanistan, from BC to present.
    No one, from BC to present ever prevailed there.
    I can’t figure out the attraction, over all the millennia, of all the sultans, emperors, kings, premiers, presidents etc. for the place.
    The Persians took it as part of its empire circa 450BC, Alexander the Great took it and founded many of cities and married one of the daughters of one of the principal warlords (many present day Afgans refer to him as Ixander) and then the Mongols took in in pursuits of a Moslem royal fugitive.
     
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