Opinions ?

[softcock]

Opinions ? on the Pic.
just need an eye from a different perspective. Steel NAS3 cases are a big zero for me on any load info . ShellShok is throwing these case out there, and their new design is about as foreign to hand loaders as Ellen DeGeneres is to taking Penis .

NAS3, If over hot load, you have no brass flow on bolt face like the normal Brass that scream you should start thinking of 'stop' .
Primer are SR 450 CCI . The Bolt is factory Rem. with the normal larger than necessary firing pin hole on face .
When seating Primers into case . They are sliding into the primer pockets, but with a lot of friction, you can feel it . So ( my thought ) the Primers are seated tighter than the normal Brass case pockets.

I been moving powder load up 2/10 grain at a time across the Garmin chrony . At this moment I have No hard bolt handle lift, or sticky case wall in chamber after firing
But THIS ---> the Load I am firing out the NAS3 case is already ' far past' were I would ever take this Load in a Brass Case .

my thinking .. Normally if your fucking doing stupid . You will pierce/pop the Primers with Brass on stupid hot loads . But with these Steel cases, larger internal volume, with a base design that is totally foreign to me . I would hope ? , that blow primers would happen long before a Catastrophic Case Failure happens with theses steel cases.

....thanks
.
mainly looking at the 2 worst, on L-side .

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[RegionRat]

You are into territory where the troubleshooting isn't well established. That said... some food for thought.

I would double check that these are not too loose on headspace. I'm not positive, but I think these work similar to traditional cases where the primer might be sliding back upon ignition, and then the case head follows. When that happens in traditional brass, it can even make the corners flatten on the primers even when the pressure isn't very high, and at the same time we see this cratering form. In this case, we know for sure the pressure is higher than normal for the primer cup. Again, just a suggestion to take a hard look at headspace and not a guarantee it is the cause.

Another issue can come from the fact that some guns will have stiffer actions and bolts than others. When these cases came out, it isn't as if everyone reworked their barrels and actions for the higher pressure. As users, we take this upon ourselves because the guns were designed around the SAAMI pressures of typical cartridges according to the bolt faces, and when we add pressure it is our problem not theirs.

It is also too soon to guess if the recommendation will be to change the firing pin diameter. I retired before The Fat Lady was done singing this tune, so hard to say what the labs have discovered with respect to the bolt guns versus the gas guns and how the higher pressure changes things.

Some of my old colleagues don't think these higher pressure cases were a good idea in terms of distributing them across guns and actions that were not designed to those pressures.

That is not to say there is catastrophe, but that is to say the strain (deflection) and stresses due to these pressures are doing things to those actions that will shorten the life and cause deflections that are going to cause strange issues. While there are folks promoting these cases and pressures, it isn't like they funded the study on every possible unintended consequence in all the guns someone may try. Keep in mind, THE GOV has little or no interest in reloading. For all we know, many bolts with either firing pin diameter may crater the primer no matter what we do.

You might want to consider trying a CCI 41 as a test just to see if there is any difference in the cratering.

Play it safe, Good Luck and in for the range reports.

 

[softcock]

You are into territory where the troubleshooting isn't well established. That said... some food for thought.

I would double check that these are not too loose on headspace. I'm not positive, but I think these work similar to traditional cases where the primer might be sliding back upon ignition, and then the case head follows. When that happens in traditional brass, it can even make the corners flatten on the primers even when the pressure isn't very high, and at the same time we see this cratering form. In this case, we know for sure the pressure is higher than normal for the primer cup. Again, just a suggestion to take a hard look at headspace and not a guarantee it is the cause.

Another issue can come from the fact that some guns will have stiffer actions and bolts than others. When these cases came out, it isn't as if everyone reworked their barrels and actions for the higher pressure. As users, we take this upon ourselves because the guns were designed around the SAAMI pressures of typical cartridges according to the bolt faces, and when we add pressure it is our problem not theirs.

It is also too soon to guess if the recommendation will be to change the firing pin diameter. I retired before The Fat Lady was done singing this tune, so hard to say what the labs have discovered with respect to the bolt guns versus the gas guns and how the higher pressure changes things.

Some of my old colleagues don't think these higher pressure cases were a good idea in terms of distributing them across guns and actions that were not designed to those pressures.

That is not to say there is catastrophe, but that is to say the strain (deflection) and stresses due to these pressures are doing things to those actions that will shorten the life and cause deflections that are going to cause strange issues. While there are folks promoting these cases and pressures, it isn't like they funded the study on every possible unintended consequence in all the guns someone may try. Keep in mind, THE GOV has little or no interest in reloading. For all we know, many bolts with either firing pin diameter may crater the primer no matter what we do.

You might want to consider trying a CCI 41 as a test just to see if there is any difference in the cratering.

Play it safe, Good Luck and in for the range reports.

Went out today and ran another round of slow bump up's on the powder charge .
OK the normal 'stiff' charge I been running for years in the 300BK is . ( 20.0 grn. Win. 296 ) and .30 cal, 110 vmax. in the 16" boltaction . Primers end up pretty flat and you only get a couple reloads on brass and the pockets are to loose for another load . With a 20.0 grn 296 I always have kept around 2450 fps vel. range. . I would Never even run 21.5 in the 30BK Brass casings.

Using the NAS3 brass, I took the load up to ( 21.5 grn. ) today . Going up into 21.2 , 21.4, 21.5 grn. I really never gained anymore improvement on the Velocity. It like I hit a wall right in the ( 2580 fps ) range .
So ( my thinking ? ) is that the the 16" barrel is not enough length to give an efficient burn on that amount. Possibly ? I need to go longer length barrel Bore to make that burn efficient and rise Up.
Also @ 21.5 Primers look NO different than they do in the above Pic. with lesser grn. load .
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here a pic. of the max. Vel today . working up from lesser charge to a 21.5 grn. load . outside temp. cool mid 60's

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[Doom]

Increasing powder charge will actually decrease the required barrel length for burnout because the maximum pressure will increase increasing the burn rate. If you are truly not seeing an increase then the most likely explanation is that the ignition and burning rate of the powder is changing. The first thing that comes to mind that can cause this is compressing a powder too much which limits the flame propagation speed of the powder. There may be other burning issues related to deterrents in the powder that are coming into play.

 

[shootnrelease]

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[Sheldon N]

Agree with comments on bushing the firing pin, the cratering and potential piercing might end up being your limiting factor.

Don't think that your velocity ceiling is due to inadequate powder burn, Quickload says you've burnt 100% of powder at that barrel length. Even a 9 or 10 inch barrel would be 99% burn.

Quickload says that your 110 VMax Win 296 21.5gr 2580 fps load (2.26" OAL) is roughly at 60k PSI .

 

[softcock]

Agree with comments on bushing the firing pin, the cratering and potential piercing might end up being your limiting factor.

Don't think that your velocity ceiling is due to inadequate powder burn, Quickload says you've burnt 100% of powder at that barrel length. Even a 9 or 10 inch barrel would be 99% burn.

Quickload says that your 110 VMax Win 296 21.5gr 2580 fps load (2.26" OAL) is roughly at 60k PSI .

Appreciate the input from everybody . I have no idea why the Vel rise stopped but instincts told me to stop. Especially since the new cases are uncharted by me .So.. keeping it down to 21.0 grn. 296 and hold there, seems to be the sweet spot for the small BO and NAS3 steel case.

The group POI changed also when going above 21.0+ grn . POI group all had a funky shifted move about 2-inch, 2:00 from what was zero.
The quickload data and 60-k psi info good to know also. I dont want to abuse the Action with to much bolt thrust. That powder is Fast and snappy. I also like my fingers as they are.
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[flogxal]

Does the case head being steel change the reactiveness of the primer's cup/cap? In other words, brass flows pretty easily, deforms pretty easily, compared to steel, even mild steel. Does this mean the primer will look hammered earlier than it might if it were in a brass case head?

 

[Doom]

I failed to mention in my post that when you find the point where you add powder and get no increase in velocity it's time to back off.

 

[softcock]

Does the case head being steel change the reactiveness of the primer's cup/cap? In other words, brass flows pretty easily, deforms pretty easily, compared to steel, even mild steel. Does this mean the primer will look hammered earlier than it might if it were in a brass case head?

The primers really did not look hammered or 'flat' . the Hotter load primers looked the same as primers using less powder charge. They all sit proud with round edge. The only bad was just primer flow threw on the large factory firing pin hole. also Using a Primer remove only Die. I did pop some primers out and look at them also. The NAS3 cases really are different animal, and NOT the industry standard.

Really need someone in the industry to chime-in who has a narrow depth of knowledge, or an actual representative from Shell Shock Tech. to make clarity to some of technical fine points of NAS3 . I been handloading for several decades, All I have ever known is Brass Case.So even myself It is crazy easy to get sucked in over your head with this new product because it goes against much what I learned and routinely practice with industry standard Brass .
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[flogxal]

I should have said "more flow than expected" versus "hammered" -- I noticed the cap flowed around the firing pin more than typical safe pressure loads. I didn't mean "hammered flat" and the word "hammered" was used like synonym for "drunk". Stupid on my part.

 

[softcock]

I failed to mention in my post that when you find the point where you add powder and get no increase in velocity it's time to back off.

Ya I instinctively stopped when Hitting at that point . Right now I am Down-Loading, and looking for a Accuracy Load . Just learning new with Steel case and taking notes as I go . If accuracy of less than 1-moa @ 100 yrd. with the bolt action not there. Then I going back to Brass on the small 300BO .
I chose the 300BO to fuck around with NAS3 because I been shooting this cartridge when it was still a 30-221 Rem. , And 20 grains of powder is a lot safer to start experimenting with than a bigger volume of 40+ grain on the NAS3 .308 win steel cases.

extra % of case volume offered in NAS3, and structural stronger steel case is a Plus+ .. But there is no really No case prep. you can introduce like you do with Brass to enhance uniformity for accuracy. Your just married to factory cases .
Steel Necks also, so neck tension 'Is what it Is'. I not even sure yet if you could even just neck-size only on new case, or once fired, because steel being hard and springy.
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[softcock]

I should have said "more flow than expected" versus "hammered" -- I noticed the cap flowed around the firing pin more than typical safe pressure loads. I didn't mean "hammered flat" and the word "hammered" was used like synonym for "drunk". Stupid on my part.

Ya you can probably eliminate a lot of it with just getting the fire pin hole bushed smaller, like some above mentioned. But that seems to follow same rule as Brass case. Your going hotter and the 'shroom' on the primer cup as going to grow .
It also a shame that you can't reload 'for now' being that the primer pocket are harder and not blow out oversize as fast as brass case heads.

Right now I just taking the load workups on the NAS3 with an attitude that ( It is what it is ) . For my personal uses on NAS3 I not quite yet if I swinging totally to the steel and design yet.
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