Rifle Scopes Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

natesguns

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Looking to buy a nice tactical style scope for a AR-10 rifle. Looking to do some shooting out to 800 yrds or further. I've looked at everything from High end Lupys, Nightforce, USO's and even S&B. I know that the last 3 are great but where do you stop. I'm not rich, and where does the quality vs cost stop. I have a budget of about 2K?
Someone here has the answer or answers I'm looking for.
Here's the questions I'm needing answered.

First focal plane, DO I NEED IT?

Light reticle, very cool, not going to shoot at night that much?

Magnification? Where do you stop?

Mil/Mil or Moa/moa. Does it matter that much?

That's it.
Opinions welcome.

Should have added this, if anyone has a good scope for sale let me know.

I'm leaning toward mil/mil. I like the MLR style reticle, looking for something with at least 12x could go to 15x if my budget lets me.
Anyone out there with a scope that fits this description might as well send me a pm or e-mail. [email protected]
 

JRose

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Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

2K can get you ALOT of scope... Shop wisely, and consider what options are important to YOU and how you shoot.

But for me...

I like FFP, need it? No. Want it, yes.

I never use my lit reticles I have now.

I feel my 17x's are enough, especially to 800y, but I also enjoy the higher mag if available.

Mil, but get what you're more comfortable with...


Confused yet?


 

Graham

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Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2K can get you ALOT of scope... Shop wisely, and consider what options are important to YOU and how you shoot.

But for me...

I like FFP, need it? No. Want it, yes.

I never use my lit reticles I have now.

I feel my 17x's are enough, especially to 800y, but I also enjoy the higher mag if available.

Mil, but get what you're more comfortable with...

</div></div>+1. Sound advice.
 

Gilly

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Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

I would have to say I am very pleased with the SFP NF that I put on my 5R. I got the NP-R1 MOA/MOA. I like the lit recticle option even though I might only use it once in the next 5 years, but when I do I bet I will be glad I have it. I cannot tell you about FFP as I have never had one, nor a mil/mil setup. However I think Nightforce is a good optic well within your price range until you go to the FFP model. I sighted in my rifle in 2 shots at a 100 yds without ever even boresighting it. 1 shot, read MOA marks, adjust, shot again was within 1/2 inch. The zero stop on NF is a good option aswell. Good luck.
 

427Cobra

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    I think MIL\MIL is the way to go, FFP is nice too, and as for the lit reticle, its better to have than need.
     

    natesguns

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Here's my problem with the FFP. If you use this reticle at a low magnification, it's so small that it's hard to see. (I say this like I've used this reticle, which I have not.) I'm only going on what I've been told and understand from reading. Yes, it's great for ranging at high powers, but you can do this with any reticle at a set magnification. Am I mistaken?

    If anyone has an assortment of high end scopes they'd like to donate for a little R&D study I'm about to start. Let me know I'll send my mailing address. I'll send them back as soon as I figure out what scope works with my application.

     

    matchking

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cobb_50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1

    mil is just too easy compaerd to moa , especialy when it comes to calculations</div></div>
    I have yet to see how it is "easier". I think both systems work equally well in most situations.
     

    HiCapMag

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Mil/mil or MOA/MOA does not matter....just get your reticle and knobs to match. If you have a shooting partner, make sure your stuff matches.

    FFP, is the only way to go IF you are doing things like shooting movers at a match, multiple target engagements from up close to far, etc., where you would want to dial down your power from maximum (usually where the reticles is set for accurate mil or moa) and still have one mill be one mil, or whatever. If not doing those things, no need to spend the extra on a FFP. The small reticle has never bothered me.

    An FFP Nightforce 3-15 sold this week for 2k.

    Good luck.
     

    natesguns

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cobb_50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1

    mil is just too easy compaerd to moa , especialy when it comes to calculations</div></div>
    I have yet to see how it is "easier". I think both systems work equally well in most situations.</div></div>


    That's my point as well. If you use moa all the time why change. (because everyone else is going to mils)
    I'm going to shoot out 800 yrds. but I'm not going to get the chance to do so everyday. and my physical location isn't going to let me shoot to that distance all that often. Is using moa that hard.

     

    chad3

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Center mark is still the same no matter what the power. Get FFP, and I'd make sure you get the same reticle that your pals have. Trust me, make sure the reticle and turrets match, it is very nice. You can use the scope to make second round hits with no issues.
    Chad
     

    chpprguy

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    If you haven't looked through really nice glass, then I would recommend you do first....

    I wanted higher mag until I looked through real nice glass, after I did, higher mag wasn't so important because of the clarity... IMHO
     

    JRose

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate's Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's my problem with the FFP. If you use this reticle at a low magnification, it's so small that it's hard to see. (I say this like I've used this reticle, which I have not.) I'm only going on what I've been told and understand from reading. Yes, it's great for ranging at high powers, but you can do this with any reticle at a set magnification. Am I mistaken?


    </div></div>

    True, BUT......

    Then your stuck on having to be on that set mag in order to mil with it... What if you have a drill where you need to shoot movers in one instance, and then a static target at another distance? Or if your running a course in which targets are anywhere from 50y to 400y? To me, it's easier to know that no matter where I twist my power setting to, that I'm able to mil correctly... Especially on timed events.
     

    natesguns

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    HIcapMag, that's a good answer.
    Everyone else thanks as well. I do shoot with several others and they are all using mil stuff. I see where your going. It would be easier to spot or call for each other if you equipments the same.

    I sat and watched that Nightforce sale. More will come.
     

    natesguns

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate's Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's my problem with the FFP. If you use this reticle at a low magnification, it's so small that it's hard to see. (I say this like I've used this reticle, which I have not.) I'm only going on what I've been told and understand from reading. Yes, it's great for ranging at high powers, but you can do this with any reticle at a set magnification. Am I mistaken?


    </div></div>

    True, BUT......

    Then your stuck on having to be on that set mag in order to mil with it... What if you have a drill where you need to shoot movers in one instance, and then a static target at another distance? Or if your running a course in which targets are anywhere from 50y to 400y? To me, it's easier to know that no matter where I twist my power setting to, that I'm able to mil correctly... Especially on timed events.</div></div>

    Makes sense. If you don't plan on shooting competition I could save a few bucks.
     

    Rob01

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate's Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you use moa all the time why change. (because everyone else is going to mils)

    </div></div>

    People aren't switching to mils. They are switching to mil <span style="font-weight: bold">knobs</span> to make their reticles easier to use. People who use mil reticles and MOA knobs are switching to mil knobs. Not that there is a big run to go from full MOA systems to mils as there really weren't alot of MOA reticles to use. Nightforce and USO. And also it's nice to have the came system as someone that might be spotting you and today the mil reticle is still the more used reticle. Also I won't use a scope that isn't FFP after using them for about 4 years now. Great advantage.

    Both systems work. Use whatever you feel comfortable with.
     

    19Scout77

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Don't get caught up in the quest for high mag either. I recently shot a match with stages back to 1000 and never went above 15x with 25x available. I believe the match winner had a 3-15x. Rob--what were you using at Reade?

    Also, as clearly stated above, if you are going to shoot multiple engagements at different distances (using holdovers) and/or movers, then FFP is a "must have".
     

    knockemdown

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Regarding mil vs. moa...
    To use vehicles as an analogy, I can drive a KW with an 18spd tranny just as competently as a Toyota with a 6spd automatic. It pays to know both...

    Right now, my rigs are predominantly SFP, MOA/MOA. But my next scope is going to be FFP mil/mil for a stick geared toward tactical shooting events...

    Some may question why confuse myself with owning both?
    For one, I wanna learn and be proficient at 'driving' both.
    Secondly, I'm confident in my ability to to just that.

    Once I feel I've got a handle on both systems, then I can make an educated decision as to what works best for my shooting needs. Then the decision to switch all my glass to one system or not will be justified...

    Good luck with your decision!


     

    Rob01

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rob--what were you using at Reade?

    </div></div>

    Was using the Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1 FFP with mil knobs and an MLR reticle. Had no problems seeing the 5" dot at 1000 or being able to shoot at it. Was about .1 mil left of center though. Damn wind!
    wink.gif
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Some of this stuff is way above my league. I try to keep it simple and generic. Costs are an issue, too.

    I have managed to spend the past two decades shooting without an FFP reticle. Would I like one, of course, but need, not yet.

    Of all the more recent (i.e post 1960) optical developments, I think the reflex optical sights and mildot reticles are genuine advances. But it didn't cost me a lot to learn how helpful a MilDot reticle can be. I bought a Tasco MilDot scope for well under $100, and the qestion has a real answer, my own personal answer, rather than being something I'm still trying to contemplate from outside that box. Some folks spend more than that on lens caps. Are they better off than I? Sure, but I'm not so far back there I'm completely out of sight, either.

    Is there a point here? I hope so. For me, it's that basic questions can be answered simply and cheaply. Then go out and spend the real bucks based on experience, rather than conjecture. Maybe that $80 scope has no place of a full blown custom rig, but it could easily be right at home on a .22LR practice rig. Nothing is wasted.

    Greg
     

    sandwarrior

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate's Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking to buy a nice tactical style scope for a AR-10 rifle. Looking to do some shooting out to 800 yrds or further. I've looked at everything from High end Lupys, Nightforce, USO's and even S&B. I know that the last 3 are great but where do you stop. I'm not rich, and where does the quality vs cost stop. I have a budget of about 2K?
    Someone here has the answer or answers I'm looking for.
    Here's the questions I'm needing answered.

    First focal plane, DO I NEED IT?

    Light reticle, very cool, not going to shoot at night that much?

    Magnification? Where do you stop?

    Mil/Mil or Moa/moa. Does it matter that much?

    That's it.
    Opinions welcome.

    Should have added this, if anyone has a good scope for sale let me know.

    I'm leaning toward mil/mil. I like the MLR style reticle, looking for something with at least 12x could go to 15x if my budget lets me.
    Anyone out there with a scope that fits this description might as well send me a pm or e-mail. [email protected]
    </div></div>

    For me, the one scope place was USO. I have an ST-10 with an MOA reticle. Quality is a lot more important than quantity when it comes to magnification. Although I do wish I had saved up some more pennies and gotten a variable SN-3. For a tactical scope I think power should be limited to 20x. Not that that's a hard fast rule, it's just that in good glass everything can be seen that you have to know. Also, the variable is important if you get high magnification because you will need to turn the power down to fight mirage when that comes up.

    I watched lowlights video yesterday (finally?) on zeroing the Hensholdt 3-12x56. One thing he noted in that video was having the reticle in the first focal plane. That way, no matter what power you are on...your reticle measures correctly. It's not like you were looking through the scope and turned it up to see something got sidetracked, forgot to turn it back down then misjudged a range.

    The reason I went with MOA is it takes less mathematically for ranging. At least that's how I come across it even with mil/mil reticle/knobs. As noted in previous posts it pays to stay current in both. But you certainly want to keep the scope mil/mil or moa/moa.

    Also, something USO came up with is one of their CQB reticles, the JNG MOA. Fast aquisition but still with enough refinement to shoot precision out to 800 yds. This reticle usually works better on lower powers and is probably limited to 800 yds for the average guy because of the lower power. However, it's perfectly useable on a 10x scope. No question that will get you to 1k.

    S&B, Hensholdt, Premiere Reticle, Zeiss, are all good scopes. I also have Meopta Meostar and IOR. Great scopes as well but a lot less on the guarantees. When you pay that much for a scope the guarantees should come with it. Both Meopta and IOR now have warranty capability within the U.S.

    -anyhow, that's my $.02
     

    Downzero

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    1. You will need some type of 20 MOA base to shoot an AR-10 that far. My friend hasn't been able to find anything recently that will do the job. When you find something, please let me know, as he is out of elevation at 600 yards or so.

    2. I think you should buy a cheaper scope and shoot a lot before spending $2k on a scope. I wish I'd known years ago that one does NOT need to spend $3000 for a decent precision rifle.
     

    cubewarrior

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    NF 5-22x50 MLR (if you want mils) or an R1 (if you want MOA) with a medium Unimount. Find them used and you have $400 for ammo. You'll range at max power most of the time or use multiples at 11x--flexible enough when you need it. Make sure you have matching turret increments to your reticle.

    NF is still the best thing going south of $2000.
     
    G

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    I'm with Rob. The leap isn't from one matching system to the other, but from a mismatch to a unified system.

    Realizing there are people heavily invested in the defense of one system over the other, I point out the mathematical advantages, and some simple exercises that to me substantiate my position.

    I prefer MOA/MOA because I can do the math in the dirt with a stick if I have to. Mathematically it's easier.

    Take this example: 60" target shows up as 8MOA.

    60 x 100 = 6000

    6000 / 8moa = 750y

    No acceptance of rounding error, no calculator, fully half the math is done by just adding two zeros. A lot of the time you can do both the x and the / in your head.

    The same exercise purely in MIL:

    60 x 27.778 = 1666.68

    1666.68 / 2.2MILs = 757Y

    Even if we round the decimals off (which you don't have to do with MOA/MOA), 28x60 isn't a calculation that can be done nearly as easy.

    Take the calculators & cell phones away and see who has the answer first.

    Then see who can get the closest without taking their hands off the rifle, or their eye off the glass.

    Where MOA/MOA gains the advantage in RE, it's often paid right back in scope knob design. a .25MOA per click knob is mighty easy to get lost in when you have to crank it three rotations to get to longer ranges.

    This to me makes a zero stop absolutely essential on a MOA/MOA .25MOA per click scope, but a "desirable but not necessary" for the MIL/MIL guys.

    Just my thoughts. I own and use both.

    --Fargo007

     

    matchking

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take this example: 60" target shows up as 8MOA.

    60 x 100 = 6000

    6000 / 8moa = 750y

    </div></div>

    Not quite correct, but maybe close enough if using flat shooting rounds and big targets. Might hold a little low.
     

    sobrbiker883

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take this example: 60" target shows up as 8MOA.

    60 x 100 = 6000

    6000 / 8moa = 750y

    </div></div>

    Not quite correct, but maybe close enough if using flat shooting rounds and big targets. Might hold a little low. </div></div>

    Ranging is easiest for me with IPHY/IPHY. 18" target=2 IPHY: 18/2(100)=900yds.
    Never have to worry about that 5% difference between MOA and inches.

    That said, I range with my Leica, and am looking to go mil/mil just for ease of communication with the guys I shoot with.
     
    G

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take this example: 60" target shows up as 8MOA.

    60 x 100 = 6000

    6000 / 8moa = 750y

    </div></div>

    Not quite correct, but maybe close enough if using flat shooting rounds and big targets. Might hold a little low. </div></div>

    TMOA would be 95.5. Depends on the reticle. NF's are SMOA (x100 according to the manual), but their knobs as far as I can tell are TMOA.

    --Fargo007
     
    G

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Appearances can be deceiving. Test it out to be sure. They're publishing it in the manual otherwise.

    --Fargo007
     

    matchking

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    I will check it again this weekend, though I think it will be the same as in the past. Maybe they have changed (though I don't know why), as my manual states MOA instead of IPHY for the reticle divisions.

    Again, the only NXS I have left tracks in TMOA and the reticle is TMOA, or so it appears.
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    I shot my Mil/Mil scope for the first time today and found that making adjustments was a snap . Instead of worrying about what size the squares or distance between lines I just measured point of impact compared to point of aim and adjusted . Doesn't matter whether you are at 25 yards or a thousand its all the same . I look forward to becoming more familiar with this system .
     

    natesguns

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Damn, I'm not sure I really wanted to go down this road.
    Everyone is making great arguments on both sides. I'm confident that I'm going with mil/mil. (Just for the simple fact that the folks I'm shoot with are using this set up.) The rest is going to be decided later. Still looking.
    What's really going to be interesting is when I get the scope and post my first results. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. You will need some type of 20 MOA base to shoot an AR-10 that far. My friend hasn't been able to find anything recently that will do the job. When you find something, please let me know, as he is out of elevation at 600 yards or so.




    Downzero said:
    1. You will need some type of 20 MOA base to shoot an AR-10 that far. My friend hasn't been able to find anything recently that will do the job. When you find something, please let me know, as he is out of elevation at 600 yards or so.

    2. I think you should buy a cheaper scope and shoot a lot before spending $2k on a scope. I wish I'd known years ago that one does NOT need to spend $3000 for a decent precision rifle.</div></div>

    I'm interested the barrel length on your friends AR? 20? or 24?

    Give me some load data and bullet weights if you know what they are. I'm thinking 800 shouldn't be a problem.
    Thanks everyone
     

    sandwarrior

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot my Mil/Mil scope for the first time today and found that making adjustments was a snap . Instead of worrying about what size the squares or distance between lines I just measured point of impact compared to point of aim and adjusted . Doesn't matter whether you are at 25 yards or a thousand its all the same . I look forward to becoming more familiar with this system .</div></div>

    I'll say there's quite a difference if you have to go from 25 yds to 600+ yds unknown.


    This has always been my question in using Mils. When you guys say there's a fast way of doing it, what's your trick? What's the constant? There has to be some kind of constant for you if you do it fast. Because I sure can't multiply inches of target times 27.778 then divide by mils as fast as I can divide the numbers once then add two zeros.

    Also, whether you use s-moa(iphy) or t-moa doesn't really matter that much I don't think. The difference isn't enough to matter at all compared to the relative accuracy we need or ususally get. I mean after all it comes out to .47" @ 1000 yds. To my knowledge the best recorded five shot group ever for 1000 yds is still 1.473". We want to shoot the best groups we can and shoot dead center every time we aim but that kind of precision will drive you nuts. Make the best call you can on the wind and the range and keep it within 1 MOA and you'll get hits.

    I'm not against Mils. I know some of you guys it's like second nature to range with them. But that's what I want to know. What makes it so fast for you to use mils? FWIW, I was ranging in MOA with duplex reticles for a lot of years before I got my first Mil-dot reticle.
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    I haven't done any ranging yet with it . What I am saying is that after I shot my group , I then kept my original point of aim and measured how many mils I was off vertically and horizontally and then adjusted that many Mils . A Mil is a Mil at any distance .

    With my Leupold scopes I always have to bear in mind how far away from the target I am as a 1/4 minute adjustment at 100 will be different at 200, 300 , etc.

    A 1/10th of a mil adjustment is the same no matter what the distance .
     

    sandwarrior

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Michael N,

    Actually it's the same principle. Mils and MOA are both angles that equate to linear distances at given ranges.

    Say your Leupold has a duplex scope has a 2 MOA thin crosshair at the center or a 4 MOA thick side to thick side. Say you measured from your poi to your poa and came up with one side and a half or 2 MOA for the side and 1 MOA for the half side. That's three MOA. Move the scope three MOA and you're at your POA. It's the same if you were at 100, 200, or 300. 4 clicks per MOA Move the crosshair to the POI. Problem solved... The difference between an MOA and Mil scope vs. a civilian duplex is that you have a lot better measuring in the reticle. You can count, then change. In a civilian scope you have to have some method of determining linear measurement.
     

    paraman1

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    The problem with my Leupolds is that the reticle is Mils and the adjustment is MOA . I imagine a MOA/MOA is equally advantageous as a MIL/MIL . Forget inches or True MOA or any of that crap . The reticle should match the adjustments . Thats all I am saying .

    I have used my MIL/MIL exactly one time so I am definitely no expert but I already see the advantage of having adjustments that match the reticle .
     

    mattmcg

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate's Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking to buy a nice tactical style scope for a AR-10 rifle. Looking to do some shooting out to 800 yrds or further. I've looked at everything from High end Lupys, Nightforce, USO's and even S&B. I know that the last 3 are great but where do you stop. I'm not rich, and where does the quality vs cost stop. I have a budget of about 2K?
    Someone here has the answer or answers I'm looking for.
    Here's the questions I'm needing answered.

    First focal plane, DO I NEED IT?

    Light reticle, very cool, not going to shoot at night that much?

    Magnification? Where do you stop?

    Mil/Mil or Moa/moa. Does it matter that much?

    That's it.
    Opinions welcome.

    Should have added this, if anyone has a good scope for sale let me know.

    I'm leaning toward mil/mil. I like the MLR style reticle, looking for something with at least 12x could go to 15x if my budget lets me.
    Anyone out there with a scope that fits this description might as well send me a pm or e-mail. [email protected]
    </div></div>

    My opinion....
    -FFP absolutely
    -mil/mil
    -min 10x better 14x-17x
    -get the lit reticle if you can. Good for dusk/dawn shooting or shooting against a black background.
     

    natesguns

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Really starting to see a trend. It's not really a matter of moa or mil as long as the reticle matches the turrets. Bottom line is what are you used to. This is easy for me becuase I haven't had a chance to shoot either style scope out to any real distance. All the other stuff (FFP, Light recticle) is going to be an added bonus. And it's been stated that it's better to have than to need or want.
    I think the Nightfoce is probably the scope I'm going to purchase. Now, if anyone out there would like to explain to my wife why I'm going to spend this kind of money on a scope, please send me an e-mail.

    Keep this thread going. All the comments have been great.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    So (24 * 95.5) / 4.3 is simpler than (24 * 27.77) / 1.25? Being math challenged, I'm not getting an answer to 2400 / 4.3 in my head for an IPHY reticle either. Funny, I thought the MilDot Master was the fix for math in my head anyway. Besides, that's the spotters job, so a glance at a calculator should be pretty simple. As the shooter, I'm just doing a quick confirmation of the mil value of the target so we don't screw it up.

    I don't even actually care if the knobs "match" the reticle. So I've got MOA on the knob and Mil on the reticle. 1/2 mil just needs 7 clicks instead of 5, big deal. With the exception of zeroing, where time is not much of an issue, I'm holding for a correction anyway, not dialing.

    Front focal can be useful, especially in a high magnification like 20 or 25, where you just can't always shoot or even see at max power. Using the mil marks at say, 5x is, well, let's say interesting. If, however, you got a 14x scope, and dial down to 10 or 12 for a better view, it's REALLY nice that the mils are still mils.

    What's MOST important is that the soptter and shooter speak the same language, mils or MOA. Mils is more common, there are also more spotting scopes with mil reticles than MOA reticles.

    With NF and Premier now providing high quality Mil/Mil systems, that would be my first chioce.

     
    G

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So (24 * 95.5) / 4.3 is simpler than (24 * 27.77) / 1.25? Being math challenged, I'm not getting an answer to 2400 / 4.3 in my head for an IPHY reticle either. Funny, I thought the MilDot Master was the fix for math in my head anyway. Besides, that's the spotters job, so a glance at a calculator should be pretty simple. As the shooter, I'm just doing a quick confirmation of the mil value of the target so we don't screw it up.

    I don't even actually care if the knobs "match" the reticle. So I've got MOA on the knob and Mil on the reticle. 1/2 mil just needs 7 clicks instead of 5, big deal. With the exception of zeroing, where time is not much of an issue, I'm holding for a correction anyway, not dialing.

    Front focal can be useful, especially in a high magnification like 20 or 25, where you just can't always shoot or even see at max power. Using the mil marks at say, 5x is, well, let's say interesting. If, however, you got a 14x scope, and dial down to 10 or 12 for a better view, it's REALLY nice that the mils are still mils.

    What's MOST important is that the soptter and shooter speak the same language, mils or MOA. Mils is more common, there are also more spotting scopes with mil reticles than MOA reticles.

    With NF and Premier now providing high quality Mil/Mil systems, that would be my first chioce.

    </div></div>

    24 * 27.778 if you're gonna be fair.
    grin.gif


    The point I was making is that MIL cannot be calculated in field without either a calculator, or a slide rule, while SMOA/IPHY can. In your example I got within 50 yards just by looking at those two numbers immediately. No calculator, no pencil, no $30 slide rule.

    I'm just sayin' give both a try in the field without all the support equipment (the spotter and his calculator and slide rule) and you may come away with a different conclusion.

    I mentioned that I practice with both, so like you Cory I also don't find it difficult at all to work with MIL/MIL guys for wind & shot calls, etc. 3.5 / 2.6 / 1.75 / .8 (MIL, .75MIL, .5MIL, .25MIL). That's pretty much all you need to remember. You can also print out a dope card with a MIL values column too.

    Respectfully,

    --Fargo007
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Yeah, but + or - 50 yards at 500 to 600 or more is a miss. Given a 12" target, danger space at 500 yards is +30 to -35 of actual, at 600 it's +23 to -30. My point being you'll really need the precision of the MDM or calculator no matter what system you use, if you want to shoot much past 500 yards.
     

    sandwarrior

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    CoryT,

    Just what Fargo said. I do this math in my head. 24/4=6, 24/5 =4.8 Split the difference you have 5.4. A little smaller move up to 5.6. Either move the decimal two places (or add zeros, what ever) and you come up with 560 yds. I actually had to put my stick in the dirt to write numbers when multiplying 24*27.778
    ...That's the difference to me.


    The point is: MOA is closest to how we measure/range the target. For all intents and purposes a MOA is an inch. Only short-range benchresters have accuracy that exceeds the difference. I've yet to ever hear someone bitch about "missed it by .047!"

    And FWIW, all us non-mil peeps (not anymore anyways) don't get to drag a spotter out every time we shoot. You are required at that point to figure it out for yourself.

    Anyways, having used Mil-dot I will say again, that if you've spent a lot of time behind the scope and are used to using it, it is very helpful as far as ranging. If your spotter has a clean scope and you have to feed him the numbers then that experience behind the scope is invaluable.
     
    G

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, but + or - 50 yards at 500 to 600 or more is a miss. Given a 12" target, danger space at 500 yards is +30 to -35 of actual, at 600 it's +23 to -30. My point being you'll really need the precision of the MDM or calculator no matter what system you use, if you want to shoot much past 500 yards. </div></div>

    That's not the point. How close did you get off the top of your head with numbers you provided for MILS?

    Support equipment aside, in the first place, this is all about what to do when the laser doesn't work. LOL

    With MILs, yes you will definitely need those supporting components. I did your IPHY math example in 11 seconds to the whole yard with a pencil. ....or a stick in the dirt, back of your hand, etc... just the same.

    I couldn't do the precise MIL math that fast with a pencil. I stopped at more than a minute.

    I'd have properly ranged the target, dialed, doped wind, shot, and hit it with an IPHY system WAY before that.

    Try it out. If you put them side by side in a real in the field test, you'll see what I mean.
    grin.gif


    In the end people will use what they like the best for their own reasons. I agree one is not easier or harder than the other as long as calculators and slide rules are freely available.

    It's when those things are not available or serviceable that things start to shake down differently between the different systems.

    I enjoyed the discussion very much,

    --Fargo007
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    So just use the target size in yards * 1000 / mils. Now your formula is exactly the same, just using different unit of measure for the target size.

    670 / 1.25 = 536

    You could also call it cms per 100 meters and use meters instead of yards for your ranging.

    610 / 1.25 = 488

    It's more a matter of what your are used to doing than the system itself. Now if you are going to fixate on using inches for the target and yards for the range, well I suppose you might be happier with an MOA reticle. You still need to refer to a table of target sizes, unless you only shoot a few of the same thing over and over and have those memorized.

    Inside 600, I just flash mil if the target size is a torso or more. Figure the average adult is 30" throat to crotch. If he's more that 2.75 mil he's inside 300, 2.1 puts him at 400, 1.7 is 500 and 1.4 is 600. In between split the range and call it good. That will get you to within about 10 yards of actual, plenty shootable.

    You can do that for any standard size you like, tape it to the stock and avoid the math altogether.
     
    G

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Cool man! Happy to leave you the last word.

    I haven't found either system to be reliably useful past 800 yards on the example target sizes we're discussing. Especially with mirage where you cannot precisely locate edges.

    Take care, and shoot well,

    --Fargo007

     

    natesguns

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    Here's what I'm seeing. IT'S NOT THE SYSTEM !!!! Pick one and learn it. What matters and I think we are all missing the most obivious aspect of it all. What really matters is if you can use your system and hit what you aiming at with the FIRST SHOT. Now, which system is faster or easier to use? I for shure couldn't tell ya. But I know that I'm going to buy a nice scope and learn to use that system. If I can hit my target at 800 meters or yards or inches or nanus or what every unit of measure one would use, with the first shot. Than it works for me. This is the scope I've piced the NightForce F1 NXS 3.5-15 with the MLR reticle and mil turrets.


    Everyones still makeing great points. Keepem coming.
     
    G

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    FWIW, If I was going to get a MIL/MIL setup, the NF 3.5-15x50 F1 with MLR reticle would certainly be my choice. I'll state that I'm partial to NF anyway.

    I got to look through one last match, and it was impressive. You will be very very happy with that scope.

    --Fargo007

     

    jwfrazier

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    Re: Optice choice? mil/mil or moa/moa

    I too am thinking about a scope upgrade. I really appreciate all of the advice. It seems that the MOA/MOA options are more plentiful and cheaper for a used NF, am I right?

    I agree with using the same system as your shooting partner so you can be on the same page.