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Fieldcraft over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

H

huntinggamo

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 14, 2010
183
5
35
Northern Colorado, United States
from time to time there has been discussions on either over penetrations or under penetration of certain calibers or weapons for home defense purposes. recently investigated an incident where a home owner used a 6.5-284 in a home defense scenario. the suspect entered the home forcefully, was confronted by the home owner in the kitchen. when confronted the suspect raised a handgun, the home owner proceed to fire a single 6.5mm round (aprox 3000fps) from a bolt action rifle. the bullet passed through the suspects abdomen, exited 2" right of the spine, through a towel on the bar behind him, through the freezer, through the wall behind the fridge (passing directly through a stud), and embedded in the wall/stud on the far side. if the bullet had been 6" further left it would have missed both studs and exited the window on the west side of the house and entered the neighbors bedroom. in my opinion this home owner got lucky, he could have killed a neighbor!!!! the other factor that contributed to the bullet stoping when it did was the fact that by the time it entered the fridge it was yawing, by the time it exited it was on its side, it traveled all the way through 6" of wall, including stud, sideways.


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Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

that is pretty cool to see the end result.
yes the home owner got very lucky but it is good
to see people defending themselves
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

the third picture down is where the bullet ripped sidways out of the wall, caring a good portion of the stud with it. that exit "wound" on the wall is the size of a softball.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

no, the suspect actually survived, as you can see the bullet did not expand at all, it was a sierra 142gr 6.5mm MK...

He did however drop his firearm...lol
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Definitely a lucky homeowner.
1. he didn't get shot
2. he didn't shoot his neighbors in the process

I would assume that the average homeowner doesn't realize how far some rounds can penetrate.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

rifle: intended to kill at 500+m
rifle: danger zone significantly larger than 500+m

-> if you do not know that, and don't keep that in mind when pulling the trigger, maybe you shouldn't use one.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

This exact scenario is probably why the shotgun is the best gun for home defense. At least I think so.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Wow!

Before we jump all over the home owner, it sounds like it was kill or be killed. You don't always have all day to get your angle right. Maybe that's the only gun he had or the only one he could get loaded quick enough.

Next question is if this had been a hollow point that expanded, would it have done all that? I guess it depends on fragmentation.

Now if he had pulled out an 870 with even 8 shot low brass, it would have been a much better solution with a DRT scenario.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

You use what you have.

IMHO, having a 20ga semi handy, loaded with #4 buck, would have been optimal.

The homeowner got lucky. My only advice would be to be better prepared in the future. Luck seldom repeats.

Greg
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

M<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: threetrees</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rifle: intended to kill at 500+m
rifle: danger zone significantly larger than 500+m

-> if you do not know that, and don't keep that in mind when pulling the trigger, maybe you shouldn't use one. </div></div>

Excuse me Mister bad Guy entering my home armed with intent to kill, this particular weapon is not scenario appropriate. .. will you refrain from killing me or my family while I reevaluate and arm myself with a less lethal means of dispatching you.

I say dance with who you brung....if he neutralized the Guy with a hammer would you criticize him for that too? He used what he had effectively and did society a favor. ...end of story.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Just an observation, it looks like he/she has kids living with them. With that in mind; neighbors, weapon-choice, and even thier own personal safety, all were probably at the bottom of their concern list.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Threads like these give us a good opportunity to evaluate our home defense contigencies and to make changes accordingly. Learning from other people's experiences can make all the difference. For example, the other night I had prowlers on my property messing with my vehicles. I tried to dash outside as fast as I could to confront the individuals before they could flee, but I wasted a good 7 or 8 seconds pulling a pistol from its holster and unlocking the door. Now, I don't leave the pistol in a holster when I'm not carrying, and I don't use the front door in a hurry; I dive through the window.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghogs Nightmare</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was the freezer empty? </div></div>
no but it did not hit any contents of the freezer, missed the mint chocolate chip by about half an inch, lol
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Angry_Pirate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just an observation, it looks like he/she has kids living with them. With that in mind; neighbors, weapon-choice, and even thier own personal safety, all were probably at the bottom of their concern list. </div></div>

i would agree, the choice of weapon was a bad deal, the crappy thing was it was the only one he had accessible with ammo. from my understanding the way it went down was that all firearms besides one handgun were locked in the safe, the homeowner had the rifle on the bench anyways cleaning it when he heard someone attempting to kick in the door downstairs, the handgun was out of reach with an empty mag and loose ammo in a cabinet in another location, he slapped the bolt back into the rifle, grabbed a loaded mag out of his range bag and went into action. from what i gathered he did not believe the round would have that much penetration, he amused the thin jacketed match round would fragment (based on what he had heard from other shooters).
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

There is a thousand ways this could have played out, either good or bad. There is considerable luck here, and this could have ended badly. Bad situation, bad choice of defense weapon, positive outcome. I dont't knock the guy for doing what he did, or even with what he used. Many gun owners don't own a gun for home defense, and many more lack skill and training to handle a defensive scenario, and therefore most likey don't have a plan. Grab what you got, point, shoot, pray. A quote I heard from a movie, "Chance favors the prepared mind."
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Is the homeowner being charged with anything?
I'm sure he is going through enough having his home invaded and having to defend his family.
I would hate to think that he would have to endur the added stress of being charged for it.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

kind of makes you love the shotty all that more. Wow, thanks for sharing because it gives you pause to think what you would do and what do you have handy to support the family in times of need.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the homeowner being charged with anything?
I'm sure he is going through enough having his home invaded and having to defend his family.
I would hate to think that he would have to endur the added stress of being charged for it.</div></div>

no, i agree that would be crappy.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Good for the homeowner. Yes the choice of firearm could have been better, but you already pointed out that the homeowner was cleaning a rifle at the time. I would have used the same thing except in my house it would have been more likely a 22 instead of a 6.5. I shoot my 22's far more than anything else, so I'm cleaning them far more as well. Heck, if you were to look at my bench right now, you'd see an old Glenfield Model 60 22 tore apart on it.

I think that a relevant point in this discussion is the location of any other choice of firearm. The handgun was out of reach with an empty magazine, and the ammo for it was in a cabinet in another location. It sounds to me like the homeowner doesn't carry or the magazine wouldn't have been empty at the time, but even if he does carry, he did what the majority of us would do... He placed the handgun out of reach. Most of us don't carry in our personal homes. When we walk in we have places that we keep our carry guns. Whether we drop them in the night stand by the bed before taking a shower, place it near the junk drawer with our keys and wallet, or leave it in the center consel of the truck in the driveway, the point is that most of wouldn't have had anything on us.

Kudos to the homeowner who utilized what he had at that moment, and I'm glad that the right person took the bullet.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

The movie quote is from under siege two dark taratory.
Also looks like they have termites.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

If all I had was my 308 rifle handy, you're goddamn right I'd use it on whoever was trying to kick down my door. I have two little children too.

I find nothing wrong with this picture. He did what he had to do with what he had available.

Personally, my 18" Remington 870 12ga with 00 buck would've been a better choice because in this case the bad guy lived.

Too bad he didn't hit the fucker in the spine and remove his ability to ever use his legs again. Imagine the regret the assailant would feel for doing this when he's sitting in his wheelchair for the rest of his life thinking to himself "Man. I should have went to college and never done PCP, Crystal Meth and CRACK."
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

I have a remington 1100 with 00 and slugs. Back up is the wife with the 9mm with 147gr hp.
My house hold is the wife,myself and 4 boys and mother in law. My three older boys all capable of hitting moving targets with the handgun. Waiting to train the three year old.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

I'm suprised it didn't break apart a little more. Glad everything turned out alright as I would have done the same thing.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

LRG,
Thank you for posting this. It's a great piece of education. He did what he had to do to protect his family and I am glad he was in a position to do this. Good to hear that he, his family AND the neighbors are safe!

I could be wrong, but seeing the magnets on the freezer door and hearing unloaded handguns locked seperate from ammunition locked in another seperate cabinet defenitely speaks of appeasing a no loaded guns in the house spouse. If that was the case, maybe they can relive that discussion....

I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me:

1- was the rifle confiscated?

2- if so, will the owner get it back or what will HE have to do to get it back?

3- Were the other firearms on premise confiscated or recorded in the history file for the case?

Thank You Again,
DS
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

That is just what I was thinking .
Only bad negative to the Homeowner is that most likely his favorite Hunting Rifle is now impounded for months on end .
.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Is it bad if the first thing across my mind is, "shoulda used a partition?"
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dakota_Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm suprised it didn't break apart a little more. Glad everything turned out alright as I would have done the same thing. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRrifleGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no, the suspect actually survived, as you can see the bullet did not expand at all, it was a sierra 142gr 6.5mm MK...

He did however drop his firearm...lol </div></div>


I also would have thought a 6.5mm 142 SMK BTHP would have fragmented like hell....
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If all I had was my 308 rifle handy, you're goddamn right I'd use it on whoever was trying to kick down my door. I have two little children too.

I find nothing wrong with this picture. He did what he had to do with what he had available.
</div></div>

This.

For those of you finding a way to criticize this guy, his choice was between the rifle and his fists...would you choose differently?

Even most of us with alternative setups for HD, could think up scenarios where an armed intruder may surprise us while we are somewhere in our house where our preferred weapon is not handy and we may need to find alternative means of defense.

Obviously the safety of his children was part of the reason there was not a loaded handgun accessible. Having been through that decision, I highly advocate a decent quality quick access safe. I sleep well at night knowing I can have my handgun, ready to go, in my hand in under 2 seconds yet my kids are 100% unable to access it.

The area holding my guns, however, is typically locked. If someone burst in while I was upstairs, I could foresee needing to grab whatever was the only thing I had out and working on.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

It is unfortunate that the intruder did not die or become paralyzed for the remainder of his life. You have to think, this is someone who felt no compunction over breaking into another individual's home, threatening the owner's and his family's lives to simply take what he wanted. Knowing how people are, this probably will teach him nothing in the long run, and he'll do this same thing again given the right circumstances and opportunity. Hopefully next time the owner will take him down permanently. It would actually still be unfortunate even if he was paralyzed - then someone else would be stuck having to support him for the remainder of his miserable life (at least that's a 'win').

Good job for the homeowner though. I have a difficult time believing that the people in this thread who are criticizing the guy's actions aren't simply trolling for a response from people. The man had a few options when the intruder raised his firearm: 1) Take on the gunman using his fists, 2) Assume that the man would treat his wife/children nicely and leave quietly after all business had been conducted, or 3) Assume that the gunman was a real threat to his own life and the lives of his wife and children (or, even if the intruder didn't kill them after he'd taken care the husband, perhaps he would have sodomized and raped them for a few hours then left) and, accordingly, put him down as quickly as possible, making-do with the best tool he had available at his disposal, knowing that it was potentially a risky maneuver.

I think that any compassionate, thinking human being would pick option number three 99 times out of 100. I'd risk over-penetration issues to kill the intruder in light of the other options being to use my fists or assume that he'd go quietly away after obtaining what he came for. In choosing option 2 above, I'm also assuming that he didn't come explicitly to take human life - another big risk. Perhaps 9 out of 10 crimes like the one discussed in this thread are perpetrated with the intruder acting to obtain money or valuables - but I don't want to stake my loved one's lives on those odds.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds


My best friend growing up and I used to shoot wrecked cars in his Dad's salvage yard for fun. These were 1970's model cars.
A .308 Win hunting bullet would penetrate the grill, wires, hoses, firewall, seats, rear deck lid and exit. From front to rear. All the way. Range was @50yds.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Underpenetration kills far more people than overpenetration.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Hopefully he sues the intruder for a new frig and repairs. That is if he survived.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds


Northern CO and a 6.5x284 kinda limits the number of people that could have been... relatively small community of shooters that would have a bolt rifle of that chambering.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

It has been demonstrated that about the only <span style="font-style: italic">relatively</span> safe place to take cover in/around a vehicle is any position that puts the engine block between you and the incoming rounds. Otherwise, as Casey's anecdotal evidence suggests, the rounds have a high probability of passing directly through other parts of the vehicle, and emerging with enough energy to cause a non-negligible amount of damage to a human.

In a shooting course I was part of earlier this year, we did some react-to-contact drills from the inside of a vehicle that required both driver and passenger to disembark at contact and take up cover behind the engine block as quickly as possible and learn what positions worked to enable the shooter to engage the threat(s), yet still present as small a target as possible to the downrange threat. Very good to practice.

Edit: 9H, your sig lines is the best I've read today! bwaaahahahaha
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

lol, I can just imagine the homeowner hearing the assailant begin to break in and purposefully picking out the 6.5-284 "just to see what it'd do..."
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lol, I can just imagine the homeowner hearing the assailant begin to break in and purposefully picking out the 6.5-284 "just to see what it'd do..."</div></div>

I bet neither would be able to hear too well after that. The intruder probably dropped his handgun for fear of the noise more than the shot.

I am also surprised that SMK did not fragment at all. They must have a much thicker jacket than the 30 or 338 caliber SMK bullets.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

I'm thinking that a 6.5-284 is a rather rare caliber, compared to other popular chamberings. This guy broke into a long range shooter's home. Is there a criminal forum we can post this on, to warn the other criminals what happens when you break into the home of the guy who shoots every week!?

Seriously though, the homeowner just did what he had to do. It's not like when these things happen, you can stop, think, and draw up a game plan that fits the particular scenario best. Sometimes you just have to react, and do the best you can think of in the split second you have.

That's what I had to do. A Beretta 92FS was under my mattress, and I had about 8 seconds to get it and get to the hallway before the intruder was at my bedroom door. I'd have much rather had a shotgun, but in the time I had, I grabbed what I could.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

+1 For the homeowner. Did what he HAD to do With no time to think about it.
Hopefully the majority of us will never have an experience like that. Although it seems like it's getting more & more common these day's.

I'm sure everyone on here has heard it before.
Stay Alert Stay Alive
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

I think the home owner did a grate job , yes he could of picked a better tool for the job , I bet he never leaves his hand gun siting on bench with no loaded mag's .

But it was a pretty good outcome any way , only could of been better if the attacker was killed .
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Sitting at my dining room table cleaning a Glock 21, perp. enters the front door. The PARTIALLy re-assembled pistol was enough to disuaded him from fully entering the house and he retreated back to the walkway into the arms of the local PD already in pursuit.

I now clean one weapon only with another, "battle-ready" weapon on my hip.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

This is one of the reasons, I have my handgun ready to go at most times I am home. I especially like to having it on me or nearby when working in the garage or when I am at a location away from where I usually have it most of the time.

I used to have at least a rifle ready to go for home defense before I had a pistol, but over penetration really made me nervous especially with family members on the other side of the house.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

Use whatever you have to protect your family, but thats why I agree with the 12 guage with lighter loads theory. Have on hanging in my closet ready to go. I would hate to hurt a family member because of that very situation.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

I have an AR in 223 as my home defense gun, but this makes me think I should find a light mount for my mossberg 590.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So.....Thoughts on a 142 SMK for hunting?
wink.gif
</div></div>

Apparently they work very well on freezers, wall studs and sheetrock, but are marginal on bad guys.

I personally have no problem with the choice of weapon. Heaven forbid anyone has to be put in this situation, but if I am, anything goes. As long as my family is behind me I will shoot holes in anything the bad guy gets near, on, or behind. I keep an 870 loaded so the first three shots are highbase buckshot, then followed by five Brenneke slugs, it also has a side saddle, and a bandoleer sling with 15 more rounds of buckshot. I don't care what happens to my house, the neighbors house, or anything else, if someone does something that puts me in the position I am pulling the trigger, the gates of hell will open and all shit will break loose until the bad guy isn't moving anymore. I don't believe in limited engagement, I believe in peace through superior firepower and overwhelming retaliation. Let your insurance company worry about the sheetrock and freezers.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

I cannot criticize the homeowner for defending himself and his family but what is obvious is that the weapon was inadequate to the job. The attack was stopped but the perp. lived and if alive could return fire. Not only that but if the homeowner had accidentally shot a noncombatant that homeowner even though defending himself could be charged by an unsympathetic prosecutor or held liable in a civil court. I've tagged white-tail with a 9mm (legal in these parts) with highly frangibles at 5 yards. No exit wound and it looked like a hand-grenade exploded in the chest cavity. Ms. whitetail died quicker than many that I've taken with a 3006. I prefer a 45 but if push comes to shove a 9mm will do the job.

If all I've got is my long range rifle with FMJ's then that's the medicine I'll feed the bad guy but my first choice for a gunfight in my house with my kids close by is a hand gun with a bright light and rapidly expanding ammo that more than likely will not go through some SOB endangering me and mine.
 
Re: over penetration of center fire rifle rounds

So where's the blood splatter? Looks like a Negligent Discharge to me.

Shotguns and pistols are for home defense. Rifles are for combat and hunting.
 
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