Rifle Scopes Partial-Horus-Like reticles, seem dumb, please explain to me

[JayMazee]

So... I get Horus reticles. I mean, I think they're busy of course, no one really argues that. My issue with them is that with whole lines ever 1 mil, and dots every .5 mils, you are more at most ever going to be "holding in space" at .25 left/right off a marking and .25 up/down off a marking. That's with a poor-case hold of something like 2.25mil and .75 left wind which since we're only using scopes with .1mils is even slightly less of an issue. I don't like this, but maybe some people do. It seems extremely difficult to me to be able to accurately call your shot if you're holding in space. I don't want to discuss Horus really... But....

My larger issue is with the Horus-Like reticles, where there is a line at every 1 mil only (Vortex Razor for a special example but there are more from IOR, Bushnell, even the Horus Temor reticle seems to skip everything under 1mil but that's a weird BDC-for-wind-type-of-thing I'm not sure I fully understand either)... Anyhow... with these Not-Horus reticles, it seems like you can be .5x/.5y holding in space. It seems utterly useless unless you happen to be .2 or less within a whole marking. That is:

|----|----1
|
|
|- (hold 1.5, .7right, wtf?)
|
|
|----|----|----2

1.0 Great
1.2 ok
1.4 bad
1.6 bad
1.8 ok
2.0 Great

Am I missing something? Do people really want to hold in space like that? Is that what you are supposed to do without .5 mil markings? Is this just a horus-patent-work-around gimmick that will go away?

I'm not crazy about Horus, but it seems these not-horus are worse while trying to be less busy. Maybe these are for crap-I-have-no-time-to-dial moments? Moving targets? Just guess-non-precision shooting? Reference as an impact indicator?

 

[agbm]

Hey, I can't say anything about the Partial Horus look a like reticles. But the True Horus reticles are amazing, once you zero at a 100 yards you never touch your elev/wind turrets again!!!! The software makes it so easy.
https://www.horusvision.com/horus-popup.html

 

[steve123]

If I'm understanding you correctly???

Most of us are going to be shooting 1-2 moa steel at distance so there's a little wiggle room for slight error on hold. Most of the error would be a miss because the hold for wind wasn't correct or less than ideal position creating wobble.

A guy could dial for wind and elevation if they wanted to try to be as exact as possible but everything has it's positives and negatives.

No answer I can think of except having a H type reticle in .1 grid. I like H reticles but a .1 grid pattern is ridiculous and unnecessary. I've proven to myself that for the most part holding with a H reticle is as accurate as I need for shooting steel. Although dialing elevation and holding for wind has been what I've defaulted too the last year. When I set the scope back to zero and holdover I do just as well so at times I wonder why I dial at all???

Edit... I can personally holdover/off with more success with a H reticle than any other reticle I've tried which is quite a few. .1 mil isn't very hard to acquire in the reticle for me I guess.

 

[JayMazee]

Just to clarify I am NOT talking about Horus-ACTUAL reticles. The same issue applies but to a smaller degree, a factor of 1/2 the issue of space hold to be exact.

 

[BravoSierra]

With the EBR2b, my technique is to dial elevation and hold windage. If i miss and see my splash, i can get the second shot off immediately using the "tree". I kind of see your point, but the few times that I've used a pure hold, it wasn't really a problem, your brain fills in the space. I qualify that by saying I've only done that out to 600, but it did put the rounds right on my POA.

 

[Lowlight]

It's really quite simple and the idea that you are holding out in "space" is not understanding that the values extend.

If you had to put a target between two points, you can't line them up correctly ? (actually you can have more than two points)

|-----+-----|
.
.
.
|-----+-----|

So asking a person to line up a target between the "+" signs and the middle dot (understand these are even further apart than a reticle, you couldn't visualize the middle of that space ? If I said to put the target between the 2nd & 3rd Dots and hold 1/2 way to the "+" sign you can't slide the reticle up between the dots and then over half way to the + ?

Doing it is actually much simpler than talking about it, or trying to guess... it can be done just as quickly and easily with a plain old Mil Dot reticle and has been for years. Certainly with the new crop of reticles you get more to reference but the space has value as we are more than capable of Lining things up correctly.

 

[JayMazee]

So asking a person to line up a target between the "+" signs and the middle dot (understand these are even further apart than a reticle, you couldn't visualize the middle of that space ?

Of course I can. The contention I have to that is I'm extremely skeptical the shooter can make a good call as the shot breaks if you're out in space. It seems very difficult to do so anyhow.

On the Horus, 1/2 mil markings make sense, I understand that one could hold out in space between such tightly grouped references. My curiosity is to mid-range and upper-middle-range scopes offering a more *sparse* tree and how useful that really is.

I mean, I'd take a sparse tree over a Nikon-level BDC any day of the week, but I'm just not sure I'm understanding that the sparse tree at whole mils is a good idea. Seems you're not getting away from dialing like one might imply you can do with the Horus, and it seems more busy than more traditional reticles. To me, and this is my question.... Are they putting a tree in, just to have it? Just to have the Horus-look?

I suppose I get it if we're talking references, moving target, milling/ranging, impact locations, but I'm really not sure on space-holds even if I do agree that the brain can line up objects.

 

[Lowlight]

It's just because you haven't been taught to do it properly or you have not tried to do it... it's quite easy.

Most of the targets we are talking about are better than 2 MOA and inside 600 yards, so they take up much more space than you realize.

Holding is not meant for subMOA accuracy, it was never designed for that, Minute of Mule or Minute of Man, which are big targets. it's designed for speed above accuracy.

Partial hold over reticles have their place exactly like the Horus, but if you dial yourself into the middle of the reticle it's not a priority to begin with.

With movers, distance, wind, etc, you are holding off, and that space is valuable, I would personally rather have space to see, than to be blocked by a grid and potentially miss the splash.

It's just practicing, training, same as anything, just because you don't see it, probably means you haven't been taught to, or haven't practice it enough

 

[finbox]

I have 3 Bushnell scopes with the G2 and I use the tree for splash location only.

Typical unknown distance shot: Damn, missed down 1mil, right .5mil, turn turrets, fire next shot HIT!

This works with bigger targets because your open space guess is close enough.

 

[JayMazee]

AGAIN... I'm not talking about Horus.

I'm talking about Horus-Like or Horus-Lite, where the distance is twice that over a Horus. It SEEMS like a less effective way to check a marketing box. But this is why I'm asking. It seems to me that you either have a Horus reticle that's busy but effective, or a limited tree that's less busy but not as effective for holding in space as the distance just seems too large imo. I really don't understand how anyone could hold 2.5 1.5 or so and reasonably be able to call their shot. But I'm new, so thus this thread.

Finbox, that entirely makes sense, and I suspect that's really how they would be most effective for me.

 

[kombayotch]

Do you need paper that has lines like this^ in order to write effectively? Are you unable to form straight and properly spaced letters/words/sentences without them? You're given that when you're learning because you can't write effectively without them. Once you gain a little more experience, you develop the skills to write effectively on paper that has simple lines, and even on things like greeting cards that don't have any lines at all. It's no different! The Horus-like reticles are just as effective as the Horus ones without the clutter and the $400 price tag. It's like writing on regular lined paper vs. the stuff above.

I like christmas tree style reticles, but don't need them. I don't like or need Horus reticles. They're like looking through a bug screen, it's distracting. The well designed Horus-like reticles are pretty subtle.

 

[CSTactical]

TAG

 

[JayMazee]

TAG

Don't bother. I'm out. Got an answer I find satisfactory.