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Pistol Caliber Carbine?

eleaf

eleaf

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 12, 2009
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The Bluegrass
www.puregrowthorganics.com
I'm interested in getting a CQB-type pistol caliber carbine for home defense use. I currently have a whoopass 12 gauge setup, but I'm afraid of the penetration and I have a kid who is naturally downrange from me in my home because of where his room is. I just would rather not chance over-penetration and hurting my kid in the event I ever had to pull the trigger.

So I'm looking for a pistol caliber carbine type rifle. It seems that one would get far greater control with the rifle, as well as accuracy when combined with something like an aimpoint.

I'd rather not get an AR type rifle (I already have 2 of those).

The only one I've seen in person is the Berreta CX4 which seems okay. I'm interested in what others have used.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I'd prefer .45 ACP and as short as possible overall length for maneuverability.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

I don't think I'd want to shoot a pistol that way either...maybe a 20 or 16ga?
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

If you're worried about penetration, launching 115+ grain bullets are a BAD idea.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

I have a Ruger PC9 and it's a nice short rifle that would be useful in a home if you were so inclined. I would suggest a Marlin Camp 45, which is also out of production, but is somewhat easily located. The nice thing about the marlin camp 45 is the fact that it takes 1911 magazines.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

KelTec makes one that takes Glock mags
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

If penetration is your worry, you do NOT want a pistol caliber.

A pistol cartridge in a pistol (even a .22) has the capacity for more penetration than a .55gr defensive load in .223. If you are looking at 9mm in a 16" barrel you are going to get quite a bit more.

If 12ga isn't doing it for you, I suggest an AR.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

How about a Kriss in 45. Or wait for the 40 that will be coming out soon. 223 for home defense isn't a good idea. If you decided on a 223, just dont use fmj.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Marlin 1894 in 38/357. I have two in 44 mag and just love them.. I also have 44 mag S&W wheel gun for a combo set up.. MY AO is the country... not the city.
Good luck on your choice
George of the jungle
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

IMO
Your best option is .223.
I'd load up some varmint grenades or other highly frangable bullets.

These would produce gruesome wounds and would not likely be fatal after going through a single sheet of sheet-rock.

Pistol calibers penetrate surprisingly well.
Especially FMJ.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

anything but maybe birdshot is going to penetrate sheetrock.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Highground</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M1 Carbine </div></div>

Minus the Aimpoint
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

223/556 is a great choice. 9mm, 40 and 45 can work as well. Ammo is really what the topic should be. If you do choose a 223 look at Hornady TAP. It is specifically designed not to over penetrate barriers such as building materials. My agency specifically put TAP ammo in our patrol rifles (M4) because of the penetration issue. Our tactical guys have access to TAP and Bonded ammo. Take a look at Ammo manufactures websites and they will provide you with the hard data.

If you are really set on a pistol caliber carbine I would stay away from Keltec and Beretta. I have shot both and just wasn't very impressed with the over all feel and function.

AR15 platform pistol calibers can be troublesome as far as what ammo they eat and I have seen very few that lock the bolt to the rear all the time after the last round. The magazine in these are truly the weak link.

Good pistol caliber carbine are expensive. KRISS, MP5, UMP... All very good, tested and very expensive. M1 Carbine is a great little gun but the ballistics are not ideal for your needs coupled with the limited ammo on the market.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

UZI 45 if I must, but I like the Street Sweeper with bird shot, accross the room its a lot fo stopping power. Oh, who am I kidding, the guns are locked in the safe, I'm pushing the statue down the stairs.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

This was just being discussed in another topic. I fail to see the need for a rifle in any CQB environment, unless your in a mansion and your hallways are 75 feet long. A good pistol(we use HK usp 45's) with a light attached is a great choice. In a defensive position you should be going to safe location in your residence and making a phone call to the local police and holding there till help arrives. If you have the need to get to loved ones elsewhere in the house being able to open doors and traverse areas is a lot easier with a handgun with a light attached. A good family plan will increase your chance of survival dramaticaly. If your family knows to stay put and stay low, bullets passing through walls accidently will have a better chance of finding their intended target. Also what ever the choice of weapon, training for its intended use is of the most importance. Training at extreme distances won't help for the encounter that might occur 10 feet from you or a loved one. Movement through a tight home with a barrel extending 2 feet in front of you makes for a better chance of someone suprising you from your corners/sides. And speaking of checking corners(the hardest thing to teach experienced operators!) checking corners with a pistol is easier than a rifle(IMHO). What ever your choice, TRAIN-TRAIN-TRAIN. Stay safe and Good Luck.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

I'm just being silly;)

High velocity, frangible bullets are safer when overpenetration is a concern IMO.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fail to see the need for a rifle in any CQB environment, unless your in a mansion and your hallways are 75 feet long. A good pistol(we use HK usp 45's) with a light attached is a great choice. </div></div>

Velocity, after shot placement it is what separates dead people from wounded people.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Training at extreme distances won't help for the encounter that might occur 10 feet from you or a loved one. </div></div>

Extreme distances? What are you talking about and how does this relate to the post?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Movement through a tight home with a barrel extending 2 feet in front of you makes for a better chance of someone suprising you from your corners/sides. </div></div>

You are making excuses for poor tactics. If done properly this is not even an issue.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And speaking of checking corners(the hardest thing to teach experienced operators!) </div></div>

Some are wondering why I am being a bit abrasive... It is that statement. What the hell are you talking about? Not everyone with a uniform and a weapon is an "Operator". We are talking corners. I have observed more people get sucked into a corner than miss a corner.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> checking corners with a pistol is easier than a rifle </div></div>

Typical excuse used when you don't know how to use a long gun.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a defensive position you should be going to safe location in your residence and making a phone call to the local police and holding there till help arrives.</div></div>

Your scenario for the use of a firearm in a structure is far too limited. Being defensive may not be your only option. If one of your kids starts screaming in the night, <span style="font-style: italic">you're going to go offensive</span> - and when you do, your best option is a rifle. In addition, not everyone lives in an urban area - many people live in rural areas where the police response time is long, and you better be able to solve your own problems.

And that's in addition to the points made by cowboy_bravo, who has far more experience as an operator in both military and L.E. environments than most people you can find anywhere.

Clint Smith said long ago that the proper use of a pistol is to fight your way back to a rifle you should not have put down.

I recommend that you go get some good training in the use of a rifle.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300zero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about a Kriss in 45. Or wait for the 40 that will be coming out soon. 223 for home defense isn't a good idea. If you decided on a 223, just dont use fmj. </div></div>

To answer the OP these Kriss rifles are awesome rifles albeit expensive. I've seen the SBR version going for $2,500.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

I have mixed feelings on advising citizens to go on the offensive when faced with home invaders.

Why? Because I have NO IDEA what your skill level is.

1. Have you trained to assault a structure?
2. Have you practiced with your weapon until no thinking is required to tend to it's basic functions?
3. Have you trained IN YOUR HOUSE?
4. Have you trained in hand to hand and weapon retention?

If you have, then there is no reason for you to cower in a room waiting for your execution. It's time to attack and meet force with overwhelming aggression and violence.

If you haven't, you are about to let reality take a big huge shit on your head.

Now in EITHER of the situations (defend in place or assault) a carbine is a better weapon than a pistol.

I train religiously with both as a matter of profession, NOT recreation. In any situation where I have both hands available, a carbine will be my choice.

The comment about corners makes me laugh my ass off. My M4 doesn't stick out any more than my G21 when held in a proper firing position. If the confines are really so tight that I can't swing the corner with the M4 in a firing position, then I just short stock it and eye-muzzle-target. If the BG is waiting when I pie the corner its a simple matter to jam the muzzle into his chest, neck or face and pull the trigger.

Training makes the difference. It's true that rarely does a plan survive first contact, but a plan still keeps your brain from going on vacation.

Train - Plan - Equip - Repeat.

When you have to execute, do it with decisiveness and violence of action.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

I don't recommend that people do that if they are not trained for it - I was simply acknowledging that there are situations where they are going to, trained or not.

Perhaps there are people who will go defensive when there is a threat to their kids in another part of the house - but I don't like to think about people like that.

Which is why I recommended that the poster to whom I responded might want to get some training, which he obviously needs.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300zero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about a Kriss in 45. Or wait for the 40 that will be coming out soon. 223 for home defense isn't a good idea. If you decided on a 223, just dont use fmj. </div></div>


Yes 223 FMJ can really penetrate surprisingly well.
So does .45 FMJ, 40 FMJ, 9x19 FMJ.
The common thing here is the FMJ part.
High velocity frangible bullets usually penetrate less than low velocity frangible bullets, with all else being the same.

There are projectiles that will put a deer down reliably in a 308, but will fail to do so when loaded to normal velocities in a 300 win mag (no joke).
This is REAL, I don't make this shit up which is why I wonder about many of the comments.

I've spent an embarrassing amount of time shooting various objects with various projectiles.
I learned quite a few things, and sometimes I share.
Bullets are not predictable, and like working up a load, they need to be tested to understand what they will do and what they won't.
Many times I realized that stuff I knew was totally wrong.
Many times my predictions were off as well.

Does anyone here making comments on .223's suitability as a home defense cartridge actually have any real world experience where you would have come to this conclusion on your own?

When loaded properly, it can get the job done and not cruise through all your walls.
I live in the city and I'm a responsible neighbor.
I will not let bullets leave my house, I will use .223 if given a choice, and I have the highest confidence in my decision.

The "internet gospel of wisdom" should be taken for what it's worth.
Don't take my word, I'm no authority on this topic by any means.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Does anyone here making comments on .223's suitability as a home defense cartridge actually have any real world experience where you would have come to this conclusion on your own?
</div></div>

Yes.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here making comments on .223's suitability as a home defense cartridge actually have any real world experience where you would have come to this conclusion on your own?</div></div>

Yes. But I didn't just arrive there by own experiences alone, I also learned from others who have entire <span style="font-style: italic">careers</span> under their belt concerning combat and training for the fight. My also arrived at my opinion with the information provided by manufactures and reps at ballistic seminars.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Understood. No problem.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keithtb1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In a defensive position you should be going to safe location in your residence and making a phone call to the local police and holding there till help arrives. </div></div>

I have a problem with this statement. If I'm faced with a home invasion situation I refuse to sit idly in some random room of my home and wait for the police while criminal scum have run of my home and possessions. It is MY home not the criminals and I WILL defend it. This sit and wait for the police mentality is what turns people into sheepeoples.

While I may not run through building clearing drills daily I refuse to let that stop me from defending what is mine. I have already given to much up to the criminal element in our society and giving up any more is simply unacceptable to me. I mean I don't see the point of being armed if I'm unwilling use them in defense of my property, family, and freedom.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keithtb1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In a defensive position you should be going to safe location in your residence and making a phone call to the local police and holding there till help arrives. </div></div>

I have a problem with this statement. If I'm faced with a home invasion situation I refuse to sit idly in some random room of my home and wait for the police while criminal scum have run of my home and possessions. It is MY home not the criminals and I WILL defend it. This sit and wait for the police mentality is what turns people into sheepeoples.

While I may not run through building clearing drills daily I refuse to let that stop me from defending what is mine. I have already given to much up to the criminal element in our society and giving up any more is simply unacceptable to me. I mean I don't see the point of being armed if I'm unwilling use them in defense of my property, family, and freedom. </div></div>

I see no problem in holding up a defensive position, and were it only my wife and I, I likely would take a defensive posture while I wait for the police. After all, I don't really <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> to shoot anyone. Going around the house room-to-room trying to clear it sounds an awful lot like someone looking for an excuse to kill someone, and sounds like a HUGE risk to take unnecessarily just so you can feel like you did something. Being defensive is not about being sheeple. It's the absolute most practical and reliable way to stay safe. If a BG wants my TV, he's welcome to try and lift that heavy ass bitch. If he wants to threaten my family's safety, he's about to get pumped full of .45 and 12 gauge.

For me it's about keeping my family safe. To hell with my possessions. They're covered by insurance. But my kid is on the opposite side of the house, on a different floor. Sitting idly is not an option. Getting to him is my number 1 priority. Once there you can bet that a defensive position will be held. If anyone comes through the covered doorway without having properly identified themselves as a friendly, they die.

For some who live in smaller houses, clearing may not be an issue. My house has 3 floors with over 20 separate spaces. I'm no hero, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express. Going around looking for the BG who is not a direct threat to my family's safety is s sure way to get yourself in to a heap of trouble.

It's about staying alive, not being a cowboy.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

eleaf it is simply a different mind set (nothing wrong with yours either). I'm no cowboy either but as I have said, I'm not letting criminals have run of my home. I simply refuse to bullied around in my own home. Also looking at things from my perspective if someone broke into my home they certainly don't have good intentions. They may just be there to take personal property, but I don't know that. What I do know is that they have already shown a lack of conscious and morals by committing the acts they have.

But to each their own. It is just my view point and the way I run my home.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

The idea of going to a "safe place" and calling 911 is fatal. Unless you have a real "safe" room with as in a vault, separate line etc, it is a bad idea. Do you know what a typical police response is? Responses usually range anywhere between 10-15min. You would be dead if you relied on the police to save you.

And IMHO, an inexperienced shooter will be worse with a handgun that a shouldered weapon. I have tried it many times. I have taken so many friends guys and girls to the range and i hand them a hand gun and they can hit shit with it because their form, grip, and trigger control is not up to par. Then i hand them an 14.5" AR with an Aimpoint and they have no problem hitting center mass every time. So the argument that a handgun is "easier" is definitely not correct in my opinion.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know what a typical police response is? Responses usually range anywhere between 10-15min. You would be dead if you relied on the police to save you. </div></div>

Response time is dependent on where you live and what else is going on at the time. Where I work we have the luxury of being staffed better than most our size. In most cases an emergency response will have 2 officers on scene in about two minutes. All those times are public record so stopping by and asking may get you a weird look but it will also give you an idea what you may be dealing with.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Hunkering down in a defensive position is not the same as waiting for the police to arrive.

What you seem to be suggesting is that actively clearing a house, going from room to room looking for said assailant with the specific intention of getting in a gun fight, is safer than taking a defensive position while having to cover 1 angle.

That's nuts. It's simply crazy talk. If that's what you prefer to do, so be it, but don't try and argue that actively seeking contact is a safer option than trying to avoid it by taking a defensive posture only. It's counter-intuitive to even the most basic of reasoning.

In fact, if the only goal is to insure the safety of your family, getting them out of the house and away is the safest option there is.

Just don't try and tell me that actively looking for a gunfight by hunting down a criminal room to room is the safest option. that's cowboy talk, and how people end up dead.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

If one of your kids starts screaming in the night, just stay in your room, and call 911. Let a professional save them.

Perhaps that's what you'll do.

It's not what I'm going to do, but, then, they're your kids.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hunkering down in a defensive position is not the same as waiting for the police to arrive.

What you seem to be suggesting is that actively clearing a house, going from room to room looking for said assailant with the specific intention of getting in a gun fight, is safer than taking a defensive position while having to cover 1 angle.

That's nuts. It's simply crazy talk. If that's what you prefer to do, so be it, but don't try and argue that actively seeking contact is a safer option than trying to avoid it by taking a defensive posture only. It's counter-intuitive to even the most basic of reasoning.

In fact, if the only goal is to insure the safety of your family, getting them out of the house and away is the safest option there is.

Just don't try and tell me that actively looking for a gunfight by hunting down a criminal room to room is the safest option. that's cowboy talk, and how people end up dead. </div></div>


Show me one place where i said you show go and clear room to room. I tend to agree that i like the element of surprise. And if my house is broken into, i will have my weapon ready and when that door opens and I can ID, bullets will go flying.

However, the idea that the bad guys will brake into your house and just walk in the living room and take your big ass TV and leave and never come to the master bedroom where most valuable usually are such as a safe,s jewelry etc is not wise.

From your initial post commenting that pistol calibers are safer for penetration and you were looking for one to replace your shotgun i assumed that you are not as informed or experienced and that is why i suggest you stick with a shoulder fired weapon. Your bad ass shotgun is great but an AR15 will have much less penetration that a pistol caliber particularly coming from a longer barrel such as a carbine.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just don't try and tell me that actively looking for a gunfight by hunting down a criminal room to room is the safest option. that's cowboy talk, and how people end up dead. </div></div>


Situation will dictate but 90% of the time I really think I would go after the bump in the night. If my wife is with my kid I am clearing the house... Call me a hypocrite but I wouldn't suggest the majority of the population do it. I make that decision based on my experience, training and home field advantage. My wife and I are both in Law Enforcement, chances are someone is not breaking into our house to take the DVD player, they want to hurt one or both of us. I am taking the fight to them, cowboy? I say no because I already decided I will win the confrontation and I have a solid grasp on my limitations, I will not exceed those limitations if the risk is not worth the gain.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Just thought I would poste up on some of the responses I've read about my earlier poste. As far as which weapon to use inside my home. "MY" choice would be a handgun with a light over my AR rifle. In respect to how much Training Lonewolf USMC, Cowboy Bravo, or Lindy has had I don't know these gentleman and other than what I've read on the hide they are well respected and sound very informed on the subject matter. However, to make statements to not knowing my training and experience and then blast that is less than I would expect from senior hide members here. To poste to people that it is better to be aggressive in their homes and send them out to search for intruders rather than take a defensive position and call the police and hold what you have and wait out the intrusion is irresponsible. By all means if you have to get to a child or children during this, I also would move to them and secure them and once again hold what I've got. But to attempt to hunt them down in your home, not knowing who or how many are out there and what they armed with is inviting disaster. To say go out and take a class and learn this and that also is irresponsible to the general membership. I've been training most of my adult life as a law enforcement officer, operator, police sniper, weapons and tactics instructor, and for the last 28 years doing it, the one thing I'm sure of is that I'm still always learning and don't know it all. No one week or two week school is going to teach them what you expect from them. Teaching basic and advanced swat classes, I still get guys missing corners, over extending themselves, failing to clear rooms, and these are experienced guys. Add simmunition into the mix and any operator knows, the last place you want to be is one on one searching for a bad guy. All our team training inside a home is done with the use of a handgun and flashlight attached. Now with respect to your training if you feel more comfortable, and you train with a rifle to do your CQB work, thats what works for you. But I can't believe you would say its easier to take a subject into custody with an AR over a pistol. Or check under a bed, Open a closet door etc. As far as moving through tight area's we don't move through a house with our arms extended, rather close to the chest with pistol facing forward which is now extended about 12 inches from our chest. Now if you can figure a way to keep your AR that tight I would definately like to learn that technique and pass it on to the rest of our guys. I respect all your opinions and I've learned there is no one way to do this job. But suggesting avenues of attack and aggresive responses to situations, for people not near your level of training, is in MY opinion a little irresponsible.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

The bottom line is that you need to know your own personal limits.If your skill with any weapon is limited it doesn't matter what you have in your hand the results will be unpredictable.

You aren't going to be a savy tactical operator in any sense just by buying gear.
Know your limits, Know your equipments limitations.
Have a plan, communicate your plan and execute your plan.
Be flexible and correct mistakes.

That sounds easy doesn't it? Now try doing that while someone is trying to kill you.

Just my opinion.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone here making comments on .223's suitability as a home defense cartridge actually have any real world experience where you would have come to this conclusion on your own?</div></div>

Yes. But I didn't just arrive there by own experiences alone, I also learned from others who have entire <span style="font-style: italic">careers</span> under their belt concerning combat and training for the fight. My also arrived at my opinion with the information provided by manufactures and reps at ballistic seminars. </div></div>

I was just wondering if anybody making comments had any personal experience arriving at their conclusions, or if all their conclusions on this topic were arrived at through other channels.

There are times when what is considered to be "the gospel truth" turns out to be garbage.

Experience adds validity to the statement.
IMO
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If one of your kids starts screaming in the night, just stay in your room, and call 911. Let a professional save them.

Perhaps that's what you'll do.

It's not what I'm going to do, but, then, they're your kids.
</div></div>

Perhaps you missed when I wrote:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: "eleaf"</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But my kid is on the opposite side of the house, on a different floor. Sitting idly is not an option. Getting to him is my number 1 priority. Once there you can bet that a defensive position will be held. If anyone comes through the covered doorway without having properly identified themselves as a friendly, they die.</div></div>

I'm not saying, nor did I ever even suggest, that cowering in a corner with a pillow over one's head screaming "lalalalalalalalalalalala" is the right way (though it may well be in comparison to looking around for a bad guy to shoot at). What I am saying is that actively searching out a gunfight is very likely the quick road to death, especially if one is not highly trained in such.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

Keith,

It was not my intention to "blast" you but your post struck a nerve with me. I teach civilians, law enforcement and military. I spend a lot of my own time and money training. I don’t know everything but I my tactics and tools have changed a lot over the years though it sounds like yours are stagnant. I am not a senior member her on the hide, I am just a member with a strong opinion.

On the topic of handgun vs long gun. With your experience I am sure you have witnessed at least a few gun shot wounds (self inflicted or otherwise) from handguns and long guns. Long guns generally produce the impressive wounds and typically end in death or dismemberment of the victim. We don’t need to be ballistic experts to come to the conclusion that shot placement and velocity are the parts of the formula that matter. None of us want to get shot but if I had to choose between a 9mm 124gr ball to the thigh or a 556 M855 to the thigh I am choosing the 9mm. My chances to survive and push on after a hit from the 9mm are greater, again it is velocity.

Concerning tactics, I agree with you that the handgun is easier to utilize in close quarters but with proper techniques and tactics the appropriate long gun (think M4) is not as cumbersome as you lead on in your posts. This is what irritated me in the first place. I know from a plethora of repetitions and teaching a multitude of people that you can effectively and efficiently dominate and clear a typical structure with the appropriate long gun. There is a time and place for a handgun during close quarters operations but like anything else it is a tool and needs to be used appropriately. Transitioning when dealing with confined spaces is a common practice and is an example for the right tool for the right job. My handgun is also there to transition to if the long gun fails to fire.

From a tactical perspective I cringe when people default to something because it is easier. A common example would be basic SWAT or Active shooter classes. By mid week the students are leaving the long guns and shields behind because they are tired and fatigued from training and the long guns are now perceived as being too heavy. Theses students are taking the easy tool assuming it will work. Lindy noted a Clint Smith saying that I consider a mantra for anyone involved in combat training, “the proper use of a pistol is to fight your way back to a rifle you should not have put down.” You said, “But I can't believe you would say its easier to take a subject into custody with an AR over a pistol.” Who said anything about taking someone into custody? We are talking about Joe or Jane Smith defending themselves in their home…. Though, let’s say we are talking about LE/Mil Tactical operations and we need to get hands on. If I have a pistol I secure it in a holster, if I am on a long gun I am on sling, if I have a breaching tool in hand I dump it or secure it as best as I can and then go hands on. Tactical teams have the luxury of numbers which allows them to conduct themselves in different ways. You keep falling back on what your tactical team does in X scenario. With your concern over the use of a long gun in close quarters I wonder if your team utilizes mirrors, porting windows, gas, bangs, pole cameras or any of the many tactics and tools out there to give you the upper hand in clearing structures and confined spaces.


You brought up a great point about training but your point proves your handgun theory wrong. A long gun is more accurate and easier to shoot than a pistol. Under stress, in low light on a moving target, most shooters can not hit a chest plate with a pistol. With the long gun this same shot is much more attainable. So, if Shooter X can only afford to attend a one week class on CQB, wouldn’t you want to learn on a weapon system that will have better terminal ballistics and that has more potential to put rounds on target under stress?

Lastly, I will agree that the choice to hold up or be aggressive is 100% dependant on the situation and the individual’s abilities. I never stated you should always be aggressive and take the fight to them, I did say a majority of the time I would take the fight to them and I have my reasons. The question always needs to be asked when dealing with tactical decisions, “What do I gain or lose by my actions”. If you sit and wait what are you gaining? Does it benefit you? If so how? This doesn’t take long.
 
Re: Pistol Caliber Carbine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'd prefer .45 ACP and as short as possible overall length for maneuverability. </div></div>

CDNN is selling HK-USCs in the 2010-1 catalog...
 
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