Why people in Ukraine and neighbors would want to be friendly to EU, esp. Germans that murdered and raped many of their (Ukraine and other) citizens during WW2, and Soviets liberated them. Was it the division of the country after the War, or something that happened in the Cold War. I am having problem sympathizing with the West, when what they did to the Baltic people seems to me to be inhumane. Just some questions I am wondering about, and know you folks will help me out. Thanks. Ron.
Please tell me why, re:WW2, pillboxes weren't disabled prior to GI landings and:
- Thread starter benchrester
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Read up on what Russia did to Ukraine under Stalin: basically shipped all of their grain as exports to buy arms while Ukranians starved to death by the tens of millions.
Then Russia sent a large number of ethnic Russians to "colonize" the strategically important port areas.
Thus, today you have the dispute of Ukranians vs. Ethnic Russians who should not be there in the first place.
All a power play by Russia to keep it's only warm water port, and oil pipelines.
I'm not so well versed in the current politics of the region, just know some of the history of it because I am a big history nerd.
Then Russia sent a large number of ethnic Russians to "colonize" the strategically important port areas.
Thus, today you have the dispute of Ukranians vs. Ethnic Russians who should not be there in the first place.
All a power play by Russia to keep it's only warm water port, and oil pipelines.
I'm not so well versed in the current politics of the region, just know some of the history of it because I am a big history nerd.
Check out Zbigniew Brzezinski’s book "The Grand Chessboard" to find out more about the geopolitics involved and why the big players care. IMO world history starts to become particularly interesting from directly after WWII to the present.
Yep. Germans were welcomed as liberators in some parts of the USSR and AH's racial policies created an enemy where their was none. Awful history for those people.
More and more it seems WWII never ended. All sides took a breather until the 90's and have been working to rebuild the fire since.
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The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, "Extermination by hunger" or "Hunger-extermination";[2] derived from 'Морити голодом', "Killing by Starvation" [3][4][5]) was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1932 and 1933 that killed up to 7.5 million Ukrainians.[6] During the famine, which is also known as the "Terror-Famine in Ukraine" and "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine",[7][8][9] millions of citizens of Ukrainian SSR, the majority of whom were Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[10] Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by the independent Ukraine and several other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people.[11]
Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Don't forget also the main rule of geopolitics. The enemy of my enemy is my friend Just look at our recent history. We trained al qaeda, backed saddam hussein against Iran, noriega ring a bell?
War makes for strange bedfellows.
War makes for strange bedfellows.
Germans "murdered and raped many of their (Ukraine and other) citizens during WW2"? Your history is a little off, or a lot off, in fact Ukraine had an alliance with Nazi Germany, formed several fighting battalions, joined in with the Nazis as they attacked the Soviets, the Ukrainian fascists rounded up Jews for killing, not just in Ukraine, but also Poland. In fact, today, the fascist party in Ukraine (recently asked to do away with their swastika like emblems) is alive and well, violent and in control of large parts of the current Ukrainian govt. This may be why Ukraine may want to be friendly to Germany.
"""Ethnic Russians who should not be there in the first place"""?????
How far back to you plan on going in history? The next stupid statement will be something like, "White people should give all our land back to the American Indian, as we shouldn't be here in the first place". The list could go on and on, but each example would be just as ridiculous as the first. When Ukraine was part of the Soviet block, Russians moved to Ukraine, 70+ years later, are you saying, those people born and raised by parents that were born and raised in Ukraine, should be rounded up and moved? Exterminated? What exactly do you mean by "...Ethnic Russians who should not be there in the first place"????
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Thanks for clearing that up for me. I should have researched it better, but wanted to get your views on it. Now I can see why the Ukraine's (at least some of them) are aligned more with the Western peoples. A terrible part of world history. Thanks
If you study the history of the area you'll find it goes back even further. The Tzars looted all they could to achieve their goal of bringing Russia up to European standards...trains etc. Then there were the Lenin/Marx purges. Then Stalin and Hitler. The people of that area have had a rough century and a half.
There were "genocides" also in other parts of Soviet Union but people use only parts of history they find beneficial to their cause. Famine in 1921 around Ural and Volga also killed quite a lot of Russians. 1917+ was indeed genocide upon Slavic people but the most ignored fact about it is that it originated in the West and performed mainly (you could stretch it to "only" if you discount local traitors which from unknown reason to me we Slavs have an abundance of) by jews. But of course statement like this (regardless of its validity and ability for anyone to check it out via available information on the web -> Solzhenitsyn Dostoevsky and numerous other authors) will be immediately attacked and ridiculed in order to keep in unknown to the general public.
In 1990 time West almost managed to crush Russia but fortunately it stood back on its feet (again for the Nth time) and pronto the US/West is back to its old business (again for the Nth time). Regardless of what you think of Russia sad fact is that West is not any better and isn't better for a while now (rule of the law in the West is as illusion, human rights are an illusion and so is its so called democratic process and influence of citizens on their government). Sad to have to say it but US needs strong opposition for the worlds sake because psychopaths in power have gone postal on the planet and who knows perhaps in few years (dare not say months) time Russia and China will (be able to dunno if they would) lend a hand in Civil war 2.0 to the right side.
In 1990 time West almost managed to crush Russia but fortunately it stood back on its feet (again for the Nth time) and pronto the US/West is back to its old business (again for the Nth time). Regardless of what you think of Russia sad fact is that West is not any better and isn't better for a while now (rule of the law in the West is as illusion, human rights are an illusion and so is its so called democratic process and influence of citizens on their government). Sad to have to say it but US needs strong opposition for the worlds sake because psychopaths in power have gone postal on the planet and who knows perhaps in few years (dare not say months) time Russia and China will (be able to dunno if they would) lend a hand in Civil war 2.0 to the right side.
You don't even know what Communism is or who they are or were. So yeah people like you sure do a lot of shooting in all directions.
As to the second part about cleaning up i agree but unlike your country ours doesn't go around the globe killing people and calling it bringing of democracy so i would reckon yours is in a bit more dire need of cleaning than mine especially as all this democracy and human right export business seriously diminished stores of it back home.
As to the second part about cleaning up i agree but unlike your country ours doesn't go around the globe killing people and calling it bringing of democracy so i would reckon yours is in a bit more dire need of cleaning than mine especially as all this democracy and human right export business seriously diminished stores of it back home.
1990 was a fork in the road. I think if we had of taken the path that cleaned up the loose ends of the Cold War and extended a hand to Russia rather than abandon them we would have seen much better return on investment than taking the road that lead to saving Kuwait and extended involvement in the ME.
Dunno as i read stuff on US this roads direction was staked a long time ago and while there were attempts of steering it in other directions those who tried (on various levels and up to the President) got deleted. Is it "global cabal" or is it just a bunch of psychopaths acting independently but in the same general direction i don't know but scary thing is old (60+) predictions and warnings are becoming our sad reality fast.
I'm as hard core an American, and supporter of the Constitution as you'll find, however; to say we haven't gone around the world killing people to bring democracy is wrong. We have, many times, sometimes it has worked. We have been involved in the toppling many regimes, often required killing people by us (and/or the result was the killing of opposition-same result), or have attempted to topple regimes and failed, again resulting in many people getting killed. An example of this would be the Bay of Pigs. Communism is evil, in every respect, all freedom loving Americans should always be ready to fight this crap by any means necessary. One of the real problems associated with the communization of our own country, is the lack of education in our public schools. For example, a very low percentage of high school students can explain the difference between communism and socialism and/or capitalism for that matter. Karl Marx himself told his followers to preach socialism, as converting to communism would be easy, whereas converting those living under free market capitalism would be very difficult. As long as teacher's unions protect those not teaching, it will get worse. What is really strange is the number of people (none of this board of course) that are "all upset" over the Russian move into Crimea, but couldn't find it on a topo map!! They spout off, but when asked to show where this is taking place, they haven't a clue! I get a kick out some of our elected politicos that want to send weapons to Ukraine so the brave people of Ukraine can fight the evil Russians! The problem is, Ukraine already has plenty of weapons, small arms, all the way up to modern fighter jets, they don't need weapons-they need a large shipment of testosterone patches, or injectable, as their lack of balls is shocking. Not only have more than 10,000 of the military service members deserted, but they have in fact DEFECTED!!!!! As far as I'm concerned, Europe should be taking care of Europe, not the US, we are broke, we will have to barrow more money from the commie Chinese in order to send men/money/blood/weapons to Europe-to do for Europe what Europe should be doing for themselves!!! The Ukrainian military doesn't really seem to care (or they wouldn't be defecting in such large numbers) why should we? Ukraine is one of the most corrupt cesspools in the world, we sure don't want these cowards in NATO, or to do any business with them, lie/cheat/steal/is their way of life.
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This is a drug induced post-or maybe just a couple toooo many swigs of an old bottle of Vodka--What in the hell does this mean???
Translation from the above quote: "I'm drunk, I am a drunk, and when sober I still don't know what I'm talking about". It's sad that someone, even this guy, has had their brain destroyed by drugs and alcohol. In Petrov's case, he should seek out a program, there is help available.
Not only are the Europeans not concerned about the Russian/Ukrainian situation, the French are in fact selling two very modern war ships to Russia! Rather than screw up a 1.2 billion dollar deal the French continue on their program to sell these war ships. It appears that a few in the US are far more concerned than those that live there[Europe]. Now, if we ever have to face off militarily with the Russians (and I hope we never do), we'll be facing a couple of extra war ships, thanks to our good friends the French.
Whoa calm down there guy, no need to get your panties all bunched up and call people stupid, that is a very immature way to debate and destroys your credibility.
My point is that it was a systematic genocide committed by the Soviet government, and then they colonized the strategic areas after they killed off the local population. It was quite evil to say the least.
No where did I say or even allude that the Russians living there now should be "exterminated" (quite a leap of "logic" there on your part) as it happened generations ago and those living there now had nothing to do with it. (And the Soviet government is long gone, well, kind of)
My point was that there is more of a conflict in Ukraine than there would otherwise be, because loyalties are split between Russia and Ukraine, which would not have been the case without the genocide and forced relocation of ethnic Russians.
There. Explained it as simply and concisely as I could. Next time make sure you understand the post or ask for clarification before jumping all over someone and berating them. Would you do that face to face? I highly doubt it, it's just rude behavior. Simple misunderstandings should be resolved, not escalated. Feel free to man up and apologize for being rude....
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Oh yeah right Holodomor never happened and over 5 million Ukrainians never died.
Are you reading Russia today cue cards or Putins teleprompter.
Maybe we should call Putin PUTINmyass instead or PUT-LER
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We must protect the ethnic Russian minority on the Sea of Tranquility!
http://rt.com/news/157800-russia-moon-colonization-plan/
perhaps there are russian minorities in Finland that need protection too?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vladimir-putin-wants-regain-finland-says-close-adviser-1442466
http://rt.com/news/157800-russia-moon-colonization-plan/
perhaps there are russian minorities in Finland that need protection too?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vladimir-putin-wants-regain-finland-says-close-adviser-1442466
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Your statement, "Ethnic Russians who should not be there in the first place", speaks volumes. How far back in history do we need to go before you( with your special knowledge) decide who should be there and who should not? 50 years, 200 years, 500 years? Perhaps you could share with me your special insight. Your very stance implies by just "being there" those people born and raised in Ukraine, that happen to be of Russian decent, bear some of the burden for the problems in that crap hole of a country. Just to clear the air, I wouldn't have any problem asking you that in person, if you made your original statement to me. Feel free to man up and admit you are a bigot. You just feel empowered to flaunt your bigotry because Russians are involved. I doubt your rude behavior would be so out in the open, if it were other minorities, especially minorities here in the U.S..
Bigot huh? yet you go on insulting Ukrainians. But hey your shit dont stink, true Russian mentality.
Still not sure what this idiot is saying, or means to say, similar to the rest of his ramblings. I'm still waiting for the one where he announces his departing to Ukraine- in order to kill Russians! I guess he is one of the earliest Ukrainians to flee, screaming like a little girl, and most importantly calling on the US to supply men/money/weapons/and blood, to do for the Ukrainians what none of them have the balls to do for themselves. I guess staying drunk, and taking what ever drugs this idiot is on keeps him from facing the truth, he is a coward for not returning and fighting, and all of this "buddies" are the same way, those that fled, and those that sit in Ukraine doing next to nothing but asking the US for more money. For one so loud about the situation, he should already be in Ukraine organizing a fierce fighting machine....
This rings a bell?
Oh right you are going to do your little dance and song and ignore facts and history and keep throwing poop.
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Yes it rings a bell, the "Hey USA, please send us more money, real men that will fight and not defect, weapons, and how about rebuilding out country while you're at it" bell.
Why have more than 10,000 Ukrainian service members DEFECTED???? Are all the service members in the Ukrainian armed forces cowards? Or could it be they know something Ukrainians are not telling us? Why hasn't petrov gone home to fight? He sure seems like a fierce Ukrainian? Is he a "plant" to try to get Americans to give more money to one of the most corrupt cesspools on earth? Or, is he just a drunk, with no balls at all? I'm guessing most Americans would come home from overseas, by any means possible to fight if our country were being invaded ( or at least I hope so), why hasn't the mighty petrov gone home for the same?
Why have more than 10,000 Ukrainian service members DEFECTED???? Are all the service members in the Ukrainian armed forces cowards? Or could it be they know something Ukrainians are not telling us? Why hasn't petrov gone home to fight? He sure seems like a fierce Ukrainian? Is he a "plant" to try to get Americans to give more money to one of the most corrupt cesspools on earth? Or, is he just a drunk, with no balls at all? I'm guessing most Americans would come home from overseas, by any means possible to fight if our country were being invaded ( or at least I hope so), why hasn't the mighty petrov gone home for the same?
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Funny PUTINmyass sent way more money to Ukraine.
A: Your defections numbers are infalted
B: Practically all of the defectors are ethnic Russians
But you already knew that you are just spewing horseshit that PUTINmyass hands down to you.
What a wuss! I already knew you were a coward-otherwise you'd be home fighting the Russians, but to fail to even offer a reason why you can't get back in order to fight-answers that question. I don't believe my figures are inflated, but even if they are, why would the percentage of ethnic Russians be so high in the Ukrainian army? It appears that Ukrainians aren't very patriotic! And piss poor soldiers at that-of the huge numbers of active and reservist Ukraine claims to have, they can't seem to find two companies ready to fight! Not one pilot ready to fly a combat mission, etc. etc., but what they are not short of is, their ability to ask the US for more money!!!! The best thing for petrov to do is to go home and start fighting, quit using all your energy here, go home an single handedly save the Ukraine!!!
Again, WHY was the Ukraine military made up of such a high percentage of Ethnic Russians? Answer: Ukrainians (ethnic) don't have the balls to actually fight, therefore; they do all they can to stay out of military service.
Again, WHY was the Ukraine military made up of such a high percentage of Ethnic Russians? Answer: Ukrainians (ethnic) don't have the balls to actually fight, therefore; they do all they can to stay out of military service.
Or maybe it is because there is a very large number of Ethinc russians in Ukrainian territory, oh right you don't deal with facts only poo throwing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF6LzYdJrQ0
On 2nd thought you know you are right, Ukrainians are poor fighters! Let us look at how awesome the Russian fighters are!
Don't want to interrupt pissing match (who knows who's pants are going to get wet) but you should really check the facts about fighting (mi24 shot down etc...) and if anyone ASKED for money or they were OFFERED money for services (aka killing "separatists", "terrorists" etc...) which could and SHOULD be war crime (Lagarde bitch and couple of other politicians). Entire West had screamed when police beat up few protesters at Maidan but now OFFERS money for killing (check out Odessa incident and how fifth column was organized by Ukrainians to provoke their "Right" Sector in action) Ukrainian Russians which are in fact doing exactly the same (with less collateral damage to note) as Maidan protesters did.
PAW: Checkout a bit of US history (number of wars vs number of years of peace and worldwide bases and incidents US caused) and to anyone objective enough there is obvious escalation and step up AFTER dirty old communists were defeated coupled with fear mongering and legislation changes (to the worse) at home. While it was understandable and even necessary during Cold war, but those pesky "socialists/communists" have successfully migrated and changed the wrapping in such a way that they are successfully fooling entire nations to again buy their product en mass. So for me personally what has perhaps been once (never perfect though but still a nice try and effort) the best society in the world and as you like to call it "beacon for humanity"* has its light shinning dimmer and dimmer and unless someone really ups the amps its going out and fallout from that will (is already) be felt all over the world. There are powers inside your country actively trying to shut it down and the problem is general population doesn't recognize it for what it is, some due to ignorance, some due to fear and simply blocking it out and some simply don't care.
*i don't like to use word democracy as the word has been tainted and original meaning (from ancient Greece) twisted to be more synonymous with cleptocracy, corporativism, socialism and total lack of personal responsibility and an alibi for psychopaths to maintain control of ignorant masses.
PS: Before someone starts spewing how others aren't any better, you are of course right they/we aren't but problem is US was better, it was leading this marathon of humanity and kept dictating pace for others but today not only is it not leading anymore it has started dragging others back...
PAW: Checkout a bit of US history (number of wars vs number of years of peace and worldwide bases and incidents US caused) and to anyone objective enough there is obvious escalation and step up AFTER dirty old communists were defeated coupled with fear mongering and legislation changes (to the worse) at home. While it was understandable and even necessary during Cold war, but those pesky "socialists/communists" have successfully migrated and changed the wrapping in such a way that they are successfully fooling entire nations to again buy their product en mass. So for me personally what has perhaps been once (never perfect though but still a nice try and effort) the best society in the world and as you like to call it "beacon for humanity"* has its light shinning dimmer and dimmer and unless someone really ups the amps its going out and fallout from that will (is already) be felt all over the world. There are powers inside your country actively trying to shut it down and the problem is general population doesn't recognize it for what it is, some due to ignorance, some due to fear and simply blocking it out and some simply don't care.
*i don't like to use word democracy as the word has been tainted and original meaning (from ancient Greece) twisted to be more synonymous with cleptocracy, corporativism, socialism and total lack of personal responsibility and an alibi for psychopaths to maintain control of ignorant masses.
PS: Before someone starts spewing how others aren't any better, you are of course right they/we aren't but problem is US was better, it was leading this marathon of humanity and kept dictating pace for others but today not only is it not leading anymore it has started dragging others back...
I don't have to defend our record, I'm an American, our record, while not perfect, stacks up against ANY other. The problem isn't with America-the problem is with those that are cowards, and free loaders. This piss ant country wants the US to spend our money/men/blood/time etc. to do for them what they aren't willing to do for themselves. If one takes a minute and looks up the Ukrainian military, you will quickly see how many assets they have. You would have to a drug addict (like petrov) not to recognize that they aren't using them, 99.99% have not been used to defend themselves, however; they sure are quick to ask for handouts!!!!! The entire world would have seen the situation differently if they would have put up a fight, a real fight, and not had huge numbers (10,000+) of their own military DEFECT. Cowardly fools, as petrov has demonstrated himself to be, claim that the fierce Ukraine military isn't working because a disproportionate number of their service members are ethnic Russian! Why would a country that seems to hate ethnic Russians (in fact outlawed the use of the Russian language) rely on these guys to protect them? No one seems to even begin to try to answer that question, or the question of defection, not just their "ethnic Russian" soldiers, but even their newly appointed "Sec of the Navy"!!! For all those that sit and pontificate how bad the Russian move is, why aren't you in Ukraine fighting? I still contend, if the US were being invaded, most real Americans would fight, with or without military direction, furthermore, those outside the US, would return-by any means possible- in order to help defend our country. In the Ukraine fighting to protect one country consists of "begging the US for more money"!!! Those closest to the fight, the EU, don't seem to care, in fact, in an earlier post I pointed out the French are IN FACT selling the Russians new war ships! To be clear, this is not the US's fight, it is the Ukrainian's fight (maybe some day they will actually fight), we are broke, we do not need to spend our money (barrowing more from commie china), the lives of our young men and women, etc. to do for the lazy, and cowardly Ukrainians what they won't even try to do for themselves.
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Sometimes things are clearer when you have the perspective of distance.
Democracy is mob rule. The problems we are having right now are resulting because The (uneducated) People have bought the lie that rule of majority is more important than rule by law as in Constitutional Republic.
Tough to argue this point. It's not they we are expected to be the worlds police but we once were an example that for some was a challenge to match, for others an example that left them embarrassed and failing because their systems were so rotten. We have concrete principles written on paper with people in charge that use those documents to wipe their ass.
Paw2: Read again my point is WEST is actually PAYING and FORCING self appointed government to ATTACK their fellow countrymen and armed forces (bar nazis and other stupid criminal fucks) are at best reluctant to perform. This is not the question of "people of Ukraine" asking west for money and support/fight but West instigating coup and stealing civil disorder in order to provoke civil war and doing anything possible to drag Russia into this fight. This all is completely documented and with little effort one can confirm that - unless of course you discredit any source but Fox, Cnn et al...
A thread about this is already open and i believe it ran its course so i guess there is not much point in discussing it any further.
PS: Never meant to offend or make you feel like you need to defend your country i was just merely stating facts as i see them thats all.
A thread about this is already open and i believe it ran its course so i guess there is not much point in discussing it any further.
PS: Never meant to offend or make you feel like you need to defend your country i was just merely stating facts as i see them thats all.
Yes yes it must have been the evil West, the Ukrainian people loved their beloved leader who was Putins sock puppet and robbed the country and the people blind.
Would you please cite a few credible sources for this... just a few, since you appear to feel facts to support this position abound... I'm dubious, but will read what you post.
This thread was going fine until pawprint2 came in and started with the personal insults to everyone. Immature, petty, vindictive, unnecessary.
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New Kiev combat song. Has as its purpose to get some more $$$ out of the "West". Enjoy....
I've heard it's some sort of "galizian surgik", which is hard to understand, but Petrov may be able to translate for curious minds.
???????? ? ????? ? ????????
Censored. - YouTube
I've heard it's some sort of "galizian surgik", which is hard to understand, but Petrov may be able to translate for curious minds.
???????? ? ????? ? ????????
Censored. - YouTube
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New Kiev combat song. Has as its purpose to get some more $$$ out of the "West". Enjoy....
I've heard it's some sort of "galizian surgik", which is hard to understand, but Petrov may be able to translate for curious minds.
???????? ? ????? ? ????????
Hahaha! that is a funny one! about yulia being an epic level theif and a hypocrite.
Thanks for the link I found a cool cartoon too, Ill send you the link.
