Well, it's go time and these two are the finalists, So which one to get? The Sig is $1899 and the POF is $2149...Flip a coin? Any good advice one way or the other? I'm limited on range to 500 yds if that helps. As far as intended use, Just looking to ring steel and take some whitetail with the rifle. Thank you all for any help.
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POF 308 Tactical or Sig 716?
- Thread starter Bad Dad
- Start date
I'm gonna rock the boat and tell you first off I have owned both..still own the sig. My 3 POF rifles have gone like this..
308 POF- wouldnt group, bout 1.5 inches average high quality ammo
6.5 creedmoor POF- wouldn't eject properly, would group terrible. Sent it back, would eject, New barrel, still no group
223 POF- awesome. no jams. great accuracy bout 3/4 to 1/2
Sig 716- Little heavy, not as good of ergonomics as POF, but shot better..1MOA..and always ran flawlessly
308 POF- wouldnt group, bout 1.5 inches average high quality ammo
6.5 creedmoor POF- wouldn't eject properly, would group terrible. Sent it back, would eject, New barrel, still no group
223 POF- awesome. no jams. great accuracy bout 3/4 to 1/2
Sig 716- Little heavy, not as good of ergonomics as POF, but shot better..1MOA..and always ran flawlessly
The POF I'm looking at is the black anodized one, Is it a big difference in long term wear between it and an NP3 coated one?
POF's run hot and cold. If you get a good one they are terrific rifles and would be my choice over the SIG 716. If not as others have posted they cause lots of angst. SIG 716's seem to be uniformly consistent in the quality and accuracy. I own both. The POF P-308 is a little more accurate but heavier. The SIG is a much handier rifle and shoots about 1 moa sometimes less. If you want to chance getting a good POF that's the choice I would make. If not the reliable SIG 716 is what I would choose. I like the Magpul ACS butt stock and hand guard on the SIG better than the hand guard and stock on the POF.
G
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Did you purchase an older SIG 716 or a new production one? I ask because SIG 716 used to come with Magpul furniture but switched to SIG furniture early this year. I bought one from Top Gun Supply in April that came with the new SIG furniture, not Magpul. If you are buying an older 2012 production model then it will come with Magpul furniture.
Mine is. Been very happy with mine since day one. Over 4000 rounds now, no issues EVER.
Not sure what state your in but here is another consideration if your going suppressed or want to change flash hiders. A lot of the POFs at this price point are 14.5" barrels with pinned and welded flash hiders, making the overall length legal. You will not be able to switch them out without gunsmith work.
I have had good luck with both the Sigs and POFs of late production, both have worked for my customers and I have personally shot them and they both group well. This was out of a sample of three POFs and 2 Sig Sauer's that I have set up locally.
You WILL need a trigger for the Sig Sauer.
I have had good luck with both the Sigs and POFs of late production, both have worked for my customers and I have personally shot them and they both group well. This was out of a sample of three POFs and 2 Sig Sauer's that I have set up locally.
You WILL need a trigger for the Sig Sauer.
One friend of mine has a POF 16 308 and an LMT MWS, another has an LWRC and I (previously) had a DPMS SASS and a homebuild using a fulton barrel. Out of all of them the POF grouped the best and made the best velocities for its barrel length and (my 2cents) the LMT MWS was the all-around best out of all of them.
"You WILL need a trigger for the Sig Sauer".
While the trigger on the SIG is a bit heavier than I like there is an easy fix that worked for me that previous posters on the Hide put me on to. I bought a JP Reduce Power Spring kit for $10 from Brownells and replaced only the trigger spring. Reduced the trigger pull to just over 4 lbs which is fine for me. I worked even better on my LMT MWS reducing the trigger pull pull to 3.5 lbs.
While the trigger on the SIG is a bit heavier than I like there is an easy fix that worked for me that previous posters on the Hide put me on to. I bought a JP Reduce Power Spring kit for $10 from Brownells and replaced only the trigger spring. Reduced the trigger pull to just over 4 lbs which is fine for me. I worked even better on my LMT MWS reducing the trigger pull pull to 3.5 lbs.
I love Sig's products, particularly their handguns. I own quite a few and have another on order; they are my absolute favorite. When it comes to their rifles, I don't doubt that they make a decent product, but they specialize in making fine handguns, not rifles. POF on the other hand, specializes in making fine rifles. I think it would be a better option to go with the POF. Also, for the difference of $250 dollars, you are getting a whole lot more included in the POF verses the Sig flavor. Just my .02. Good luck with your purchase.
I have a 16" P308 and really like it. Shot this 5 round group my first time out at 500 with this gun. I was using dope from my factory barreled 18" rem 700 just as a good guess. It shoots great with Copper Creek Gas Gun loads. There is room for improvement on my end also, I don't have much experience with semi autos at long distance.
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Go with LMT MWS and upgrade trigger or LaRue obr. I have had a dpms sass and a lwrc repr and did not like the weight issues
Yep. Pof is hit and miss with quality. I ditched mine. I was talking to Chris Costa about taking some of his battle rifle classes and he said "bring everything but the pof" I asked why and he said "because they just don't work" and I hate to say it but he's right. No one wants to admit they bought a $2400 lemon. Get the sig. It will save you money on all the advil you won't have to buy that isn't included with the headache of a rifle POF makes.
G
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This statement couldn't be farther from the truth. I've owned my P308 since March and haven't had a single issue with the rifle and its deadly accurate. Eats any ammo I feed it and keeps on going.
First off , any time you can buy a POF under 2k jump on it. That said I have shot many POF's and Hogan's ( Phoenix is loaded with them ) and for me the Sig is just the right, size weight, and balance . You can't go wrong with ether . My Sig 716p in green has been flawless right out of the box from day one . I have no doubt the POF would be as well . I do not want to start any trouble , but I have been to and seen the Hogan operation and know they are a true manufacturer not just a parts assembler.That said I would rather have a Hogan hands down .
If I found a NIB or like new Hogan p 308 16 for 2k or under I would jump on it .
If I found a NIB or like new Hogan p 308 16 for 2k or under I would jump on it .
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We have sold a few of the Sigs and I like them, they feel and shoot great. Take the extra $$ saved and get a SSA-E trigger for it...
I helped a buddy try to get his POF to group, never could. Last time I spoke to him, it has been back to POF a few times and he still isn't happy. From reading this thread and others, seems they are hit and miss. I don't have $2k to invest in something that "might" work, nor want to pass that on to a customer..
I helped a buddy try to get his POF to group, never could. Last time I spoke to him, it has been back to POF a few times and he still isn't happy. From reading this thread and others, seems they are hit and miss. I don't have $2k to invest in something that "might" work, nor want to pass that on to a customer..
I have a SIG716 I am in the process of having a left hand charging handle milled in. For when I shoot sub sonics I have not had a single problem with it.
Perhaps he should tell the California Fish & Game "they just don't work" because POF worked better than any other rifle they tried and won the contract. If I had a $2400 lemon, I'd sell it but I've not had a lemon with either of mine.
I was a very strong advocate for POF. But no more. The whole QC and hogan debacle and my rifle going back 3 times and only holding 2 moa with match factory and hand loads is a waste of my time money and ammunition. I guess you could say its like communism. Looks good on paper but doesn't work in practice.
I find it amazing that you can consistently find posts, threads, first hand accounts, and multiple instructor/ dealer testimonies about lemon POFs having multiple return trips to the factory. Sure you get some that work as advertised. Hell all of them should for the price you pay. The question is do you want to gamble close to 3k on something that MIGHT work?
Killshot,
While I don't doubt a second that you have a shooter, consider asking the question "Did Californiastan Fish and Game get 100% random production off the line like anyone else would?"
I think only then could you get a repeat sample of what these folks buy from general production. While it's not terribly difficult to make a batch of handheld ringers, it is to hard to get complete production and QA/QC consistently.
I have nothing against POF, but it is pretty hard to ignore.
While I don't doubt a second that you have a shooter, consider asking the question "Did Californiastan Fish and Game get 100% random production off the line like anyone else would?"
I think only then could you get a repeat sample of what these folks buy from general production. While it's not terribly difficult to make a batch of handheld ringers, it is to hard to get complete production and QA/QC consistently.
I have nothing against POF, but it is pretty hard to ignore.
That's a question I don't have an answer for so your guess is as good as mine. I won't even try to deny or refute the problems that shooters have had with some of the POF rifles.
I use and have recommended POF to other shooters and they have (so far) not had any issues but when I've had questions they've always been quick to provide whatever assistance they could.
It seems the majority of the QC issues were present with the receivers that Hogan was machining for POF but it is my understanding that POF now does all of their work in-house.
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POF parts used to be made by Hogan Machining, now they make their own. Hogan started assembling the same rifle, and selling it. I can see POF having some QC problems before and during the change over. However it appears now that POF quality and accuracy is not an issue.
Just before the POF/Hogan split and lawsuit, there was a problem with poor quality parts being sent from Hogan to POF. This makes me think that of the possibility that Hogan sent POF some reject parts just as Hogan was ramping up production for their own sales.
Just before the POF/Hogan split and lawsuit, there was a problem with poor quality parts being sent from Hogan to POF. This makes me think that of the possibility that Hogan sent POF some reject parts just as Hogan was ramping up production for their own sales.
I have a POF308 16. And, believe it or not, I have 1500 rounds through it with 2 failures. Both times due to shitty foreign surplus ammo (gotta shoot what you can get sometimes). I can get a minute out of it but never have taken it out past 200 on paper but ring steel at 400. I use it for 3gun when I want to shoot heavy metal and it has never let me down in a match.
I bought a few P-308s 16" in December 2012 and had nothing but problems with the one that I shot. I got rid of the other fearing it would be lemon as well. Worse yet, POF refused to acknowledge all my emails and phone calls. I wouldn't buy another even if I knew it ran 100% based on their customer service.
I have 3 POF's. 2 308-16's, and a .223/16".
The only problem I have had is a sticky chamber on one of the 308's ostensibly from nitrading salts. It was cured by a home chamber polish job.
POF cust. service was helpful and accessible.
As far as accuracy, adjusting the 2 set screws at the front of the rifles is key, especially if you switch rails, and ensure that all the other rail screws are tight.
The only problem I have had is a sticky chamber on one of the 308's ostensibly from nitrading salts. It was cured by a home chamber polish job.
POF cust. service was helpful and accessible.
As far as accuracy, adjusting the 2 set screws at the front of the rifles is key, especially if you switch rails, and ensure that all the other rail screws are tight.
Another guy that has problems with his POS-308. It's been back to them twice now. Still won't hold better than a 2moa group. I've tried MANY different loads with three different bullets and three different powders, six different shooters, three different scopes and a lead sled.
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POF has always had QC problems ,to insinuate Hogan purposely sabotaged the parts quality is at the very least unfair .They went to court ,and the courts settled it .I have both seen and shot POF rifles after Hogan quit doing work for POF .They still have QC issues on some rifles. POF will fix the problems without question and in a reasonable time frame. No one should be afraid to buy a POF , they make a fine weapon and stand behind it .
SIG hands down. I would put mine up against any POF. It's shoots sub MOA and I have never had a jam. The POF piston system is the old design. The sig is great. Go for the sig.
I am just looking at the sequence:
1. POF contracts with Hogan to do their machining.
2. After a few years POF has a big problem with quality from Hogan, and stops paying Hogan. This goes on for 6-9 months before lawsuits filed.
3. Hogan starts selling their own rifles, identical to POF.
Most job shop/machine shops would have fixed their quality problems immediately to retain their customer. Hogan did not, instead built copycat rifles to compete with their prior customer.
I have never met anyone involved with either company, but I am more than suspicious of Hogan's timing and actions.
1. POF contracts with Hogan to do their machining.
2. After a few years POF has a big problem with quality from Hogan, and stops paying Hogan. This goes on for 6-9 months before lawsuits filed.
3. Hogan starts selling their own rifles, identical to POF.
Most job shop/machine shops would have fixed their quality problems immediately to retain their customer. Hogan did not, instead built copycat rifles to compete with their prior customer.
I have never met anyone involved with either company, but I am more than suspicious of Hogan's timing and actions.
Believe what you like ,but I know that this is not the case . Hogan is a first class operation and honest as the day is long.
I say sig, out of 43 post many have had or heard of the issues from POF however none from sig, do you want to take a $2250 chance?
I love my sig and got to take it out to 325 this weekend it shot awesome with Hornady 168 bthp, it also ate all the TULA and Pmc I fed it.
I love my sig and got to take it out to 325 this weekend it shot awesome with Hornady 168 bthp, it also ate all the TULA and Pmc I fed it.
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O'really? Guess you have never heard of Swiss Arms or SIG SG 550 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that has been around since the 70's................
Get the Sig. Atleast you know they will be around in 10 years when companies like POF/LWRC will be in bankrupcy after the idiots in the market realize how much of a waste of money they are.
If anything, based on the last 10 years, Sig handguns are where you need to worry about QC/Lemons. There is a reason for a long time (and some still) people will only buy/own/shoot west german sigs.
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Clearly the California Fish and Game Dept is the end all be all when it comes to weapon testing. I'm sure they put on a very comphrensive and competitve test with all of the industry leaders....
Ask 100 people on this sight if they could shoot a Gap10, OBR, SR-25, SCAR17, JP-08, Or a POF and how many would choose POF and why? There is your awsner.
There are depts running around with XM16's, Mini 14's,ect. So I guess I should sell my Ar's and go buy some rugers, beacuse if a deptarment is running it, it must be the best right?
Lasty, Who do you think sees more weapons being shot/tested with the most round counts... people like Costa/Haley/Mcnarma/Vickers or some nutjob armorer / bean counter for CF&G?
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