Porcelain Tumbling Media?

kthomas

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Something happens to jacketed bullets when they are left in bare necks too long. They become bonded, stuck, whatever and this causes ES to go up. Some people call that cold welding. It is readily and easily detected by trying to seat these bullets a little deeper. You hear and feel a pop. That pop is the bond breaking.

If you introduce a lubricant in between the bullet and the neck, you will prevent this bond from forming and you will be able to seat bullets deeper or pull the bullets out smoothly and easily.

People who deny the above are fucken retards.

How much does the ES go up? How long does this process take? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 1 decade? Does ES gradually get worse throughout time, or does it "settle" at one spot? If you let ammo set for 1 year and compare it to ammo that was made 6 months ago, versus ones that were made yesterday, will the ES correspondingly be higher with the age of the ammo? If so, by how much?

I don't clean my brass to sparkling new - there's some residue still left inside the case mouth. I dry tumble with rice for ~1 hour, I don't have any insane cleaning regime, and I don't understand the vanity of shiny new clean brass. I've personally never noticed an increase in ES in my reloads that correspond with age. I can take my 6BRA reloads from 1+ years ago, and they will have an SD between ~3-5 fps.

I'm not sure if FGMM would lube their necks, but FGMM ammo that's almost a decade old shoots in the single digit SD's (~6) out of my TacOps rifle. Perhaps FGMM lubes the bullets/neck, but even if they did, you would expect that lube to degrade over time.
 

supercorndogs

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How much does the ES go up? How long does this process take? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 1 decade? Does ES gradually get worse throughout time, or does it "settle" at one spot? If you let ammo set for 1 year and compare it to ammo that was made 6 months ago, versus ones that were made yesterday, will the ES correspondingly be higher with the age of the ammo? If so, by how much?

I don't clean my brass to sparkling new - there's some residue still left inside the case mouth. I dry tumble with rice for ~1 hour, I don't have any insane cleaning regime, and I don't understand the vanity of shiny new clean brass. I've personally never noticed an increase in ES in my reloads that correspond with age. I can take my 6BRA reloads from 1+ years ago, and they will have an SD between ~3-5 fps.

I'm not sure if FGMM would lube their necks, but FGMM ammo that's almost a decade old shoots in the single digit SD's (~6) out of my TacOps rifle. Perhaps FGMM lubes the bullets/neck, but even if they did, you would expect that lube to degrade over time.
Many of those questions are the subject of debate. I have always assumed they stuck over time, hence the old advice about loading your ammo just before a comp. I have also seen reports of people seating a bullet and trying pull it and having it stuck. If it galled on the way in and stuck, I would think after seating it deeper it would stick again when pulling the bullet. So, I don't think the ones I pulled down had galling. But they were stuck. I also don't think its unreasonable to assume these stuck bullets spike pressure. How much does jamming into the lands spike pressure?

Those numbers are exceptionally good numbers for FGMM or most any factory ammo for that matter.

We seem to have three camps on this.

The "I haven't seen it, so its not real camp."

The "I have seen bonding but I am not sure of the affects."

And the "it will raise your ES if you have bonding in the neck."
 

918v

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How much does the ES go up? How long does this process take? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 1 decade? Does ES gradually get worse throughout time, or does it "settle" at one spot? If you let ammo set for 1 year and compare it to ammo that was made 6 months ago, versus ones that were made yesterday, will the ES correspondingly be higher with the age of the ammo? If so, by how much?

I don't clean my brass to sparkling new - there's some residue still left inside the case mouth. I dry tumble with rice for ~1 hour, I don't have any insane cleaning regime, and I don't understand the vanity of shiny new clean brass. I've personally never noticed an increase in ES in my reloads that correspond with age. I can take my 6BRA reloads from 1+ years ago, and they will have an SD between ~3-5 fps.

I'm not sure if FGMM would lube their necks, but FGMM ammo that's almost a decade old shoots in the single digit SD's (~6) out of my TacOps rifle. Perhaps FGMM lubes the bullets/neck, but even if they did, you would expect that lube to degrade over time.

Factory brass is waxed. The wax stops the “welding”. As far as how long it takes to bond, a couple weeks, couple months? I didn’t do any formal testing. I have personally seen ES go from 20’s to 100+. Accuracy went to shit. Couldn’t pull the bullets without destroying the noses in the collet. I read about other people having similar problems. This phenomenon is well documented even before wet tumbling came on scene. I remember arguing about it on shooters.com 20 years ago.
 
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kthomas

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Many of those questions are the subject of debate. I have always assumed they stuck over time, hence the old advice about loading your ammo just before a comp. I have also seen reports of people seating a bullet and trying pull it and having it stuck. If it galled on the way in and stuck, I would think after seating it deeper it would stick again when pulling the bullet. So, I don't think the ones I pulled down had galling. But they were stuck. I also don't think its unreasonable to assume these stuck bullets spike pressure. How much does jamming into the lands spike pressure?

Those numbers are exceptionally good numbers for FGMM or most any factory ammo for that matter.

We seem to have three camps on this.

The "I haven't seen it, so its not real camp."

The "I have seen bonding but I am not sure of the affects."

And the "it will raise your ES if you have bonding in the neck."

I find this an interesting conversation.

I don't doubt that at some levels, there are things occurring that may have an influence on how that ammo performs.

Personally, I haven't seen much of a difference in my reloads, depending on the time that they've sat on the shelf. My reloads rarely stay on the shelf for more then a year, and a lot of time I'm making smaller batches of ammo that get shot up sooner rather then later. But there is some ammo that stay on the shelf for a year or more. I leave some carbon in the necks, not sure if that is helping or not.

Since moving to AZ, I haven't shot my .300NM much. I still have some fireforming loads that I loaded up ~3 years ago (I know, bad me for not shooting them up already). Brand new brass, no lube. Every time I take these rounds out to shoot, there's an SD of about ~5 fps.

I've been busy with school lately, and haven't done near as much shooting as I would like. Perhaps I'll take put on my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel, for which I have reloads that are ~3 years old now at least, that have no lube in the necks. I will also take out my .300NM, with it's ~3 year old FF loads. I'll see if I notice anything that I haven't really noticed in the past.
 

kthomas

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Factory brass is waxed. The wax stops the “welding”. As far as how long it takes to bond, a couple weeks, couple months? I didn’t do any formal testing. I have personally seen ES go from 20’s to 100+. Accuracy went to shit. Couldn’t pull the bullets without destroying the noses in the collet. I read about other people having similar problems. This phenomenon is well documented even before wet tumbling came on scene. I remember arguing about it on shooters.com 20 years ago.

Admittedly my sample size is statistically insignificant, just because I haven't necessarily noticed it, doesn't mean that the process doesn't happen.

I may test this further, I have reloads made with brand new brass with no lube, that's been sitting on the shelf for at least 3 years. 6.5 Creedmoor and .300NM. Both of these reloads have SD's of around ~4-5 fps. I haven't shot the 6.5 Creedmoor in years, since getting a 6BRA barrel, so that will be a real test.
 

918v

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Factory new brass is waxed. At least FC, Win, RP, Hornady are. So you won’t see this happen with new brass. You won’t see this happen with properly reloaded brass that was dry tumbled. Mostly because people lube the inside of the neck with mica or graphite prior to FL sizing so the expander ball doesn’t drag. Or they add stuff to the media that lubricates the neck, like mineral spirits or car wax. Contrary to popular belief, the carbon left over from firing does not lube the inside of the neck very well and the expander ball can make obscene noises while passing through.
 

supercorndogs

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I find this an interesting conversation.

I don't doubt that at some levels, there are things occurring that may have an influence on how that ammo performs.

Personally, I haven't seen much of a difference in my reloads, depending on the time that they've sat on the shelf. My reloads rarely stay on the shelf for more then a year, and a lot of time I'm making smaller batches of ammo that get shot up sooner rather then later. But there is some ammo that stay on the shelf for a year or more. I leave some carbon in the necks, not sure if that is helping or not.

Since moving to AZ, I haven't shot my .300NM much. I still have some fireforming loads that I loaded up ~3 years ago (I know, bad me for not shooting them up already). Brand new brass, no lube. Every time I take these rounds out to shoot, there's an SD of about ~5 fps.

I've been busy with school lately, and haven't done near as much shooting as I would like. Perhaps I'll take put on my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel, for which I have reloads that are ~3 years old now at least, that have no lube in the necks. I will also take out my .300NM, with it's ~3 year old FF loads. I'll see if I notice anything that I haven't really noticed in the past.
One thing I noticed when I was seating the bullets in my 223 ammo deeper was that they were not all stuck. Most of them were though. I think it would be worth seating a couple bullets deeper to see if you even have bonding before testing.

That piece of 280 brass I showed pictures of was supposed to unfired, I imagine it is factory ammo since it still has a primer in it, an the rest of the "new brass" I received with it appeared to be pull down also. It is RP.

I have some old 308 ammo to test this with, I loaded over a year ago. I wish i would have long seated it though, so I could check them for bonding in the "neck lube" and "no neck lube" batches and put them at the OAL I usually use. Instead I will have to make them shorter than what i would usually shoot to check them. I will try to seat 5 or 10 from each box to 2.75 or so from 2.8 and see if either batch is bonded to the neck.
 

308pirate

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  • Apr 25, 2017
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    How much does the ES go up? How long does this process take? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? 1 decade? Does ES gradually get worse throughout time, or does it "settle" at one spot? If you let ammo set for 1 year and compare it to ammo that was made 6 months ago, versus ones that were made yesterday, will the ES correspondingly be higher with the age of the ammo? If so, by how much?

    I don't clean my brass to sparkling new - there's some residue still left inside the case mouth. I dry tumble with rice for ~1 hour, I don't have any insane cleaning regime, and I don't understand the vanity of shiny new clean brass. I've personally never noticed an increase in ES in my reloads that correspond with age. I can take my 6BRA reloads from 1+ years ago, and they will have an SD between ~3-5 fps.

    I'm not sure if FGMM would lube their necks, but FGMM ammo that's almost a decade old shoots in the single digit SD's (~6) out of my TacOps rifle. Perhaps FGMM lubes the bullets/neck, but even if they did, you would expect that lube to degrade over time.

    There's this huge confusion in the minds of many that tells them that everything in the reloading process needs to be controlled or mitigated no matter how little effect (to include no effect) it has where it matters: on target.

    I've experienced the sticky bullet effect. I don't know what it is, but now that I've done some homework on cold welding I know what it isn't. Also like you, I see no ill effect from it no matter how hard others yell that they do. And because of that, I simply don't give a shit about it.
     

    supercorndogs

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    Please qualify, "no ill effects." Whats your vertical spread at 1k over how many rounds, and average ES and SD with bonded vs non-bonded necks?
     

    kthomas

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    Factory new brass is waxed. At least FC, Win, RP, Hornady are. So you won’t see this happen with new brass. You won’t see this happen with properly reloaded brass that was dry tumbled. Mostly because people lube the inside of the neck with mica or graphite prior to FL sizing so the expander ball doesn’t drag. Or they add stuff to the media that lubricates the neck, like mineral spirits or car wax. Contrary to popular belief, the carbon left over from firing does not lube the inside of the neck very well and the expander ball can make obscene noises while passing through.

    How long does that wax or other forms of lubrication last before it degrades?
     

    918v

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    How long does that wax or other forms of lubrication last before it degrades?

    I have a 7 year old case of FC14 factory primed brass that is still as waxy as it was when I got it years ago. I don’t think wax degrades if kept out of the sun.
     

    supercorndogs

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    It depends on the wax, if its paraffin it shouldn't degrade much, other waxes are biodegradable.

    I went and seated some bullets deeper in that .308 ammo I loaded for my dry lube test over a year ago, but i didn't find any bonding in either the dry lube group or the no lube group. They slid in as smooth as the day I seated them. ITs kind of disappointing. I wonder what variables cause the bond. There is a good burnishing inside the necks from 10 firings.
     

    clcustom1911

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    Hahaha! Youse guys with your overly shiny brass crack me up! I’ve been using just crushed walnut shell for many, many years. It cleans the brass quickly and preps it for sizing. No, it doesn’t make it shinier than original and doesn’t blind me when I load it. What it does do is work. Over and over again, using the same media over and over again.

    It just cleans the brass. Never any media stuck in the flash holes. Never any issue with stuck cases. Never an issue with having to lube the inside of the necks so that I don't have issues with SD/ED.

    Anyway, thanks for the laughs and good luck on your journey! 🤣😎
    I do 50/50 walnut/Cobb. Same batch of media for years at this point.
     
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    Crosswind

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    Dec 11, 2017
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    I started using ceramic media 20 or so years ago shooting bpc . Haven't looked back, just ordered 5 lbs. of 1mm spherical today. It never wears out. Wanted something that wouldn't stick inside my 260 cases and primer pockets.
    Aim small, Hit small.
    Good luck.
     
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