Porcelain Tumbling Media?

S3th

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I came across F-Class John's video on porcelain tumbling media. I'm curious if anyone else has used porcelain balls and overall experience. I'm tired of my FA stainless steel pins getting stuck in cases.
 

canezach

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    I've looked into porcelain media, but never tried it. It's more expensive than stainless without any extra longevity. I would suggest you look into Southern Shine Tumbling media if you're having pins getting stuck. Southern Shine is stainless "chips" instead of pins, so they're much smaller. In 5+ years of using them, I've never had a chip get stuck in a flash hole.

    download.jpeg
     
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    S3th

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    I've looked into porcelain media, but never tried it. It's more expensive than stainless without any extra longevity. I would suggest you look into Southern Shine Tumbling media if you're having pins getting stuck. Southern Shine is stainless "chips" instead of pins, so they're much smaller. In 5+ years of using them, I've never had a chip get stuck in a flash hole.

    View attachment 7606566
    Plan on buying both :)

    Porcelain will be used when I want to dry tumble for quick reloading or for removing lube after sizing.

    Additionally, how do those chips work with small flash holes?
     
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    canezach

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    I may try some. I don't particularly care if my brass looks super shiny and I like the fact I can take the brass straight from dry tumbling to sizing without having to worry about whether it's properly dried
     
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    canezach

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    I've never had a problem with any of my chips getting stuck in small or large flash holes. I've run Lapua, Peterson, ADG, Hornady, Prime, Norma, and I'm sure a few others and I can't remember ever getting one stuck in a flash hole
     
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    Drumie

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    I got the porcelain balls. It got the brass clean but they were very dull, not shiny at all. It looked like they were media blasted. I won't use them any more.
     
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    canezach

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    I got the porcelain balls. It got the brass clean but they were very dull, not shiny at all. It looked like they were media blasted. I won't use them any more.
    Any negative effects from using the porcelain or just the appearance of the brass?
     

    Drumie

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    I just tried shooting a few of them on some load development. In my AI the bolt lift was a little heavier with them. I thought maybe they were grabbing the chamber more. The load wasn't a hot load either.
     

    S3th

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    I ended up ordering 6lbs for $40. We shall see, I'm not concerned about how shiny the brass is. But I would mind other factors like bolt lift, etc.
     

    canezach

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    Follow up: I tried it once and it made my brass look like complete dogshit! Think of range pickup brass that's been left in the elements for seven years. I have no idea if it's clean or not because my brass is so dark, dull, and shitty that it could be covered in carbon and I wouldn't be able to tell. Sending the media back to Amazon
     
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    lash

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    Hahaha! Youse guys with your overly shiny brass crack me up! I’ve been using just crushed walnut shell for many, many years. It cleans the brass quickly and preps it for sizing. No, it doesn’t make it shinier than original and doesn’t blind me when I load it. What it does do is work. Over and over again, using the same media over and over again.

    It just cleans the brass. Never any media stuck in the flash holes. Never any issue with stuck cases. Never an issue with having to lube the inside of the necks so that I don't have issues with SD/ED.

    Anyway, thanks for the laughs and good luck on your journey! 🤣😎
     

    Mauser06

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    I did ask John about it beating up case necks. I've never used SS pins but that's an issue I've seen reported a LOT. Many guys say that if you don't trim after tumbling, you'll have issued because the edge of the mouth is basically peened.

    Don't know if that is user error or what. I've seen a lot of guys post about it.



    But John said he's never had that issue with porcelain media.



    I tumble in lizard walnut. But for pistol and 223 range brass, I've looked at wet tumbling...I don't need sprakling brass. But I run batches of the stuff and store loaded rounds till I have a bulk pack of empty brass to reload. Sometimes stuff I pick up or have stored a while is pretty rough looking by the time I get around to cleaning it.
     
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    sjmpcc022

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    Free yourselves from the mess and bullshit, not to mention the cost!

    For many decades I used a standard dry tumbler with either corncob or walnut media. It got the brass nice and shiny, when it was new and clean. After that, you needed to add a bit of Flitz and a squirt of windex. When you dumped it, get a fucking hazmat suit and a respirator!! What a mess!

    One of my shooting buds got a wet tumbler, with the stainless pins. It makes the brass real shiny, but holy shit it takes you a ton of time and effort to get there. Not to mention it is very labor intensive and cumbersome. Dump it out, rinse it off, lay it all out to dry. Not reloading today.

    Fast forward to now.......................... I take my almost 30 year old tumbler and use white rice for the media. The cases come out dull brass but very clean, same goes for the tumbler. Shit you not, dump the brass and rice out and the inside is like new clean!

    I never knew this, but rice is hollow. As you tumble the brass, the white rice slowly turns dark. It is all the crud from your brass filling up the hollow rice pieces. Same for the inside of your tumbler, no mess, it's in the rice! When the rice gets real dirty, feed it to your neighbors cat and get more!

    As I said, the brass isn't shiny, but targets don't give a shit what your brass looks like. Neither does your rifle, your kids, and especially your wife. It's clean and smooth and that's what counts.

    Spend 3$ at the Walmart and roll the dice!!
     

    Drumie

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    I think I have tried all the methods out there. Vibratory tumbler, but the dust really sucked. Tried rice in it but they got stuck in the cases. I tried the ground up rice and that worked ok but not great. I tried stainless pins, worked great but a big hassel and I worried about cold welding the bullets. I tried ultrasonic and it was ok. I also tried the porcelain and it also made a mess of my brass. I tried it in the vibratory tumbler and the rotory one with the procelain and same thing. Now what I do is I wet tumble for a half hour or so with dawn and lemishine, no pins, after I decap. Then I throw the brass in a cheap food dehydrator to get it dry. Then I anneal, while I am annealing I clean the pockets, you have time while using the AMP annealer to do this. I then hit the brass with Hornady one shot, then I size. After sizing I throw the cases in my vibratory tumbler with corn cob with some nufinish and a little mineral spirits. I let it go for a few hours to get the one shot off and to get rid of anything that the annealer left in it. Almost no dust with this since most of the cleaning is done with the wet tumble. There is still some carbon left in the cases so I don't get the cold welding and also with the nufinish it leaves a little wax on the inside of the case necks so the bullets seat nice and smoothly.
     
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    lash

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    For many decades I used a standard dry tumbler with either corncob or walnut media. It got the brass nice and shiny, when it was new and clean. After that, you needed to add a bit of Flitz and a squirt of windex. When you dumped it, get a fucking hazmat suit and a respirator!! What a mess!
    I really don’t have that problem with the walnut media and I have tumbled about 10,000 cases with the same batch. I must be doing something wrong. Of course, it does help to have a lid on your tumbler bowl, but that’s just common sense.
     

    308pirate

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    Wet tumbling without pins is the way

    Cold welding is a joke. 60ksi behind the bullet will release it from the case the same way every time. There is no amount of neck tension variation that can affect a rise from 0 to 60,000 psi behind the bullet in milliseconds.
     
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    Franko

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    Wet tumbling using water, lemishine, wash and wax car wash soap, and large non-abrasive ceramic media is where I have ended up. This gets my brass clean (but not shiny) with a minimum of effort.
     

    opeagle

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    Stainless steel tumbling has never peened over any case mouths at my place. So many myths.

    I’ve done it a bunch of ways, I SS tumble as my last step before priming, powdering and loading. It’s been fine, and so was doing it earlier in the process.

    Frankly there’s a lot of correct ways to do it, and only a few totally incorrect ways.
     
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    supercorndogs

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    I really don’t have that problem with the walnut media and I have tumbled about 10,000 cases with the same batch. I must be doing something wrong. Of course, it does help to have a lid on your tumbler bowl, but that’s just common sense.
    Some tumbling media has a larger partial size, therefore less surface area, therefore it gums up faster. I had a bunch of Lyman corn cob media that was very course, and it would gunk up and stop cleaning brass pretty quickly.
     
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    opeagle

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    All in all the Lyman green tumbling media has been the best for me. I’ve used several types and come back to it. I keep it in the big Dillon tumbler.

    I typically use Lyman natural corncob in my smaller Frankford tumbler. It’s been ok but I think it’s about shot. I did just get some Hornady corncob to try, probably throw it in the little tumbler.
     

    sjmpcc022

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    I really don’t have that problem with the walnut media and I have tumbled about 10,000 cases with the same batch. I must be doing something wrong. Of course, it does help to have a lid on your tumbler bowl, but that’s just common sense.
    No shit you have a lid on the tumbler!

    I was referring to the toxic dust cloud that comes out when you dump it. Had you read the whole post, ( or comprehended it) you would know I said exactly that!

    I'm also calling shenanigans on 10,000 cases on one batch of media. Unless you are using a cement mixer, a standard tumbler will hold 200-300 9mm cases and do a decent job. 300 is probably too full, I never counted them.

    At that rate, that is 33 plus tumblings on one load of media. If you are talking rifle cases, make that 100 per load. The Dillon tumbler is bugger and would change the equation a bit.

    Bullshit!!!!
     

    lash

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    No shit you have a lid on the tumbler!

    I was referring to the toxic dust cloud that comes out when you dump it. Had you read the whole post, ( or comprehended it) you would know I said exactly that!

    I'm also calling shenanigans on 10,000 cases on one batch of media. Unless you are using a cement mixer, a standard tumbler will hold 200-300 9mm cases and do a decent job. 300 is probably too full, I never counted them.

    At that rate, that is 33 plus tumblings on one load of media. If you are talking rifle cases, make that 100 per load. The Dillon tumbler is bugger and would change the equation a bit.

    Bullshit!!!!
    🤣🤣🤣
    Hey! Call bullshit all you want. You’d be wrong, but I couldn’t care less. I’m just telling you what I do. You be you.

    I always find it funny how angry people get over reloading practices, like there’s really only one sacred way to do it right. 🤣🤣🤣
     
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    sjmpcc022

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    Hey! Call bullshit all you want. You’d be wrong, but I couldn’t care less. I’m just telling you what I do. You be you.

    I always find it funny how angry people get over reloading practices, like there’s really only one sacred way to do it right. 🤣🤣🤣
    I'm not angry at all. Your first post insulted me and pretty much called me stupid.

    I was just pointing out the math in your statement doesn't add up for me.

    I also noticed you didn't disagree with or dispute anything I said, you just said I was wrong.

    I'm done, have a nice day.
     

    lash

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    I'm not angry at all. Your first post insulted me and pretty much called me stupid.

    I was just pointing out the math in your statement doesn't add up for me.

    I also noticed you didn't disagree with or dispute anything I said, you just said I was wrong.

    I'm done, have a nice day.
    Well, I’m sorry that you took such offense at my first post. I did not insult you nor call you stupid. If you read that into it, I’m sorry. I merely pointed out that my experience was much different than yours.

    You, on the other hand called me a liar. Directly. Good thing I don’t know you and care not one iota what you think. I am certainly not going to get into the dirt with you and argue numbers or fight over this.

    Sheesh! Lighten up, Francis. 😘
     
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    supercorndogs

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    I get at least 10k cases tumbled in a little frankford arsenal vibratory tumbler, without changing media. I just put over 300 223 cases in it last night, after I finished the first 200, and I ran 4 batches with appoximaty 500 each the other day after swaging pockets in some 1x LC. I say approximately because I think a 2 gallon bucket of brass should be around 2k pieces.
     
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    Ledzep

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    Cold welding is a joke. 60ksi behind the bullet will release it from the case the same way every time. There is no amount of neck tension variation that can affect a rise from 0 to 60,000 psi behind the bullet in milliseconds.

    I can't speak to cold welding-- no real experience with it. Ammo factories load clean bullets into clean cases and don't seem to have a problem. I've done multiple new vs. once fired and clean vs. dirty tests and never found any ES/SD numbers that had noteworthy changes. The average will shift up and down, but ES/SD numbers are pretty stable.

    BUT, you might be surprised on neck tension. The 60ksi isn't immediate, nor guaranteed. Anything that impedes the bullet moving causes the burn rate of the powder to increase and visa versa. So the necks holding super hard onto one bullet, and barely holding the next will show up as MV spreads. Usually only problematic with junk brass, mixed lots, mixed neck wall thickness and a bushing die (no expander), no annealing necks for 8 firings, chamfering SOME of your cases etc... So not the end-all-be-all of low MV spreads, but it can be a contributor if a guy is fairly careless.
     
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    supercorndogs

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    My understanding is ammo manufactures have wax coating their brass. I had some left over prairie dogs rounds from last year for my bolt action. I seated the bullets deeper so I could shoot them of an AR-15. The necks were definley bonded somehow. I did not chronograph the ammo, but it still shot bug holes out of my 223 bolt. The shorter OAL stuff, I broke the bullets loose in, actually shot a little worse.

    I actually have some 308 I loaded over a year ago for this purpose. I have 50 with imperial dry lube in the neck and 50 with nothing. I had bullets bonded to the necks in some 7x fired Lapua 22-250 brass, I had to seat them deeper and break them loose to pull them. I never tumbled them with anything but corn cob. I think more people probably have bullets that stick in the neck and they just never know it, because they shoot it with out pressing with it.
     

    308pirate

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    I had some left over prairie dogs rounds from last year for my bolt action. I seated the bullets deeper so I could shoot them of an AR-15. The necks were definley bonded somehow. I did not chronograph the ammo, but it still shot bug holes out of my 223 bolt. The shorter OAL stuff, I broke the bullets loose in, actually shot a little worse.

    I think more people probably have bullets that stick in the neck and they just never know it, because they shoot it with out pressing with it.
    And they never realize it because those bullets hit their target.

    When it comes to shooting, reloading is the absolute number 1 subject for old wives tales, superstitions, unproven theories, and plain ol bullshit.
     

    308pirate

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    The 60ksi isn't immediate, nor guaranteed.
    Never said it was either. I'm well aware of pressure curves and the effects of combustion chamber volume on smokeless powder behavior.

    I'm saying the friction of "cold welding" (which no one has ever been able to describe in actual scientific terms to my knowledge) is irrelevant in the face of 50 - 60 ksi
     

    supercorndogs

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    And they never realize it because those bullets hit their target.

    When it comes to shooting, reloading is the absolute number 1 subject for old wives tales, superstitions, unproven theories, and plain ol bullshit.
    Shot great at 100y only means so much.
    Never said it was either. I'm well aware of pressure curves and the effects of combustion chamber volume on smokeless powder behavior.

    I'm saying the friction of "cold welding" (which no one has ever been able to describe in actual scientific terms to my knowledge) is irrelevant in the face of 50 - 60 ksi
    Cold welding - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Cold_welding

    Cold welding or contact welding is a solid-state welding process in which joining takes place without fusion or heating at the interface of the two parts to be welded. Unlike in the fusion-welding processes, no liquid or molten phase is present in the joint.


    1619524260266.png
     
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    308pirate

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    Shot great at 100y only means so much.

    Cold welding - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Cold_welding

    Cold welding or contact welding is a solid-state welding process in which joining takes place without fusion or heating at the interface of the two parts to be welded. Unlike in the fusion-welding processes, no liquid or molten phase is present in the joint.


    View attachment 7613088

    We have possibilities with metal like galling, seizing, or corrosion sticking them together also.

    Interesting. I still don't believe cold welding is a factor for three reasons:

    The fusion mechanism is degraded by contamination between the two surfaces of the same metal. In order for cold welding to work, both surfaces need to be mechanically cleaned to the point where there are no impurities. Unless someone is sanding or polishing the inside of the necks and degreasing the bullets, there will be impurities in the joint

    You need significant pressure. From my quick research I found that copper alloys need around 2000 N/mm2 or 290,000 psi to completely cold weld. There is absolutely no fucking way that an interference fit of a couple of thousands of an inch comes even remotely close to that kind of radial pressure between the neck and the bullet.

    You need to exclude all air from the joint. Sorry, not happening. A bullet seated in a cartridge without neck sealant is not air tight.

    On top of all that, IF any welding takes place, the joint will be subjected to massive shear forces which make welds fail much sooner than tension or compression.

    I'm starting to think that what many think is cold welding is just very, very mild galling.
     

    supercorndogs

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    Unless they are cleaning the necks with you know, SS media, to remove all carbon. The bullet would not need degreased. You ever have two pieces of stainless cold weld together because you didn't put enough anti seize on? I have. Not clean, not degreased, actually greased, and cold welded.

    Galling is caused by cold welding.

    What Is Galling? - Bortechttps://bortec.de › blog › what-is-galling

    While cold welding is the merging of two parts, galling is the friction damage that follows cold welding. When two parts are cold welded and then moved by compressive forces, galling damage occurs on the surface of both materials.

    I think corrosion is much more likely what sticks the bullets.
     

    308pirate

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    Unless they are cleaning the necks with you know, SS media, to remove all carbon. The bullet would not need degreased.

    There is zero carbon in the neck when tumbling with pins? I ask because I wet tumble without them.

    Sorry, galling is the result of friction, which creates heat. The very opposite of cold welding. There is zero relative motion between two parts being cold welded.
     
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    supercorndogs

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    No. Again. Maybe too small for your old eye balls.

    What Is Galling? - Bortechttps://bortec.de › blog › what-is-galling\\

    While cold welding is the merging of two parts, galling is the friction damage that follows cold welding. When two parts are cold welded and then moved by compressive forces, galling damage occurs on the surface of both materials.

    Your assessment of cold weld VS galling is 100% wrong. A minute ago you said you cold welding had never been scientifically explained, now you are the expert. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: Oh yea, thats out 308buttpirate, the instant expert. :rolleyes::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     

    308pirate

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    No. Again. Maybe too small for your old eye balls.

    What Is Galling? - Bortechttps://bortec.de › blog › what-is-galling\\

    While cold welding is the merging of two parts, galling is the friction damage that follows cold welding. When two parts are cold welded and then moved by compressive forces, galling damage occurs on the surface of both materials.

    Your assessment of cold weld VS galling is 100% wrong. A minute ago you said you cold welding had never been scientifically explained, now you are the expert. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: Oh yea, thats out 308buttpirate, the instant expert. :rolleyes::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    You love quoting things out of context. I said that I hadn't seen an explanation of cold welding, not that it didn't exist.

    Can galling happen when separating cold welded parts? I'm sure it can, sometimes. I've also experienced galling between two parts that have never been cold welded, such as when pressing a shaft into a rotor for an interference fit. That's friction related galling.

    I took your link and dug further, quickly educating myself on cold welding and pointing out conditions needed for cold welding that are highly unlikely to be present when one presses a bullet into a case neck. How about you address those points? Or do you not have the intellectual horsepower to do so?
     

    918v

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    Sometimes we handloaders mislabel/appropriate terms from elsewhere to describe what we observe. Why? Because it fits.
     
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    kthomas

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    I'm kind of with @308pirate.

    Everyone talks about cold welding, but how much does it really effects our reloads? Is this issue going to show up downrange? And if it does, is it going to show up to any measurable degree?

    It's talked about a lot, but is there anything beyond any marginal anecdotal evidence to suggests that this is something that actually needs to be dealt with and concerned about?

    There are so many myths with reloading, it's difficult at times to discern fact from fiction. Generations of oral passage of reloading history still gets passed around today, in the longest running game of telephone.

    As far as cold welding goes, I've never tested it myself, never seen a need to. Old ammo shoots great, I can still shoot a group in the tenths from ammo I loaded a year ago. If cold welding was really an issue, then wouldn't factory ammo have a limited shelf life? Is cold welding really a problem? If so, how big of a problem is or isn't it?
     

    308pirate

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    Is cold welding really a problem? If so, how big of a problem is or isn't it?

    It's not, except in the minds of those who need to justify (to themselves and/or to others) why they do what they do.
     
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    canezach

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    It's not, except in the minds of those who need to justify (to themselves and/or to others) why they do what they do.
    I'm sure it happens in other places, but the shooting sports, as you mentioned, seems to have a lot of old wives tales, BS pseudo-science, and "this is how it's always been done, so that's how I've always done it, and anyone different is wrong" mentalities.

    This thread reminds me of a different thread where an issue being reported by 0.01% of shooters was attributed to something scientific and people began speaking with authority, like they were aerospace engineers with doctorates in uniform projectile motion. I take 99% of what I read on here with a grain of salt the size of Mt Rushmore
     

    supercorndogs

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    You love quoting things out of context. I said that I hadn't seen an explanation of cold welding, not that it didn't exist.

    Can galling happen when separating cold welded parts? I'm sure it can, sometimes. I've also experienced galling between two parts that have never been cold welded, such as when pressing a shaft into a rotor for an interference fit. That's friction related galling.

    I took your link and dug further, quickly educating myself on cold welding and pointing out conditions needed for cold welding that are highly unlikely to be present when one presses a bullet into a case neck. How about you address those points? Or do you not have the intellectual horsepower to do so?
    Ok, Bill Clinton, thats not what you said.

    I'm saying the friction of "cold welding" (which no one has ever been able to describe in actual scientific terms to my knowledge) is irrelevant in the face of 50 - 60 ksi
    Maybe not what you meant, but its exactly what you said. And the rest of what you said wouldn't be correct either.

    Advantages of using cold welding

    The most noteworthy advantage of cold welding is that the resultant welds have the same bond strength that of the parent material. This feat is very hard to recreate in metalworking.


    I can see how a neck could get little spots of cold welding where a copper ball or piece of brass rolled up in the neck as the bullet was pressed in. You could probably get a bunch brass stuck in there if you did a shit job in your chamfer, or your tool was dull. I don't doubt that it can happen. See how the "I think game works."

    How about you use all that inteltual horsepower you got, and answer your own questions, rather than blathering your, "I don't think bull shit." You didn't think cold welding and galling were related either. What you think and what is true are not the same.

    How many PSI would a .001 ball of copper or brass make in the press fit neck of a case? You're the big dick swinging engineer and you are asking someone else to do the math for you. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
     

    supercorndogs

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    Here is a piece of 280 brass i saved because i was surprised at the amount of jacket left in the neck. It is the same all the way around for the depth of the neck. It doesn't look like corrosion.
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    supercorndogs

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    I will take that as you saying you have no idea how to figure out the answer to your own question. Nothing that is press fit falls through.
     

    918v

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    Something happens to jacketed bullets when they are left in bare necks too long. They become bonded, stuck, whatever and this causes ES to go up. Some people call that cold welding. It is readily and easily detected by trying to seat these bullets a little deeper. You hear and feel a pop. That pop is the bond breaking.

    If you introduce a lubricant in between the bullet and the neck, you will prevent this bond from forming and you will be able to seat bullets deeper or pull the bullets out smoothly and easily.

    People who deny the above are fucken retards.
     

    308pirate

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    I will take that as you saying you have no idea how to figure out the answer to your own question. Nothing that is press fit falls through.

    I was making fun of your inability to write in clear english.

    I also am not going to spend time figuring out hoop stresses and compressive forces in a bullet/neck joint to satisfy you. When it takes over 200,000 psi to achieve cold welding, any intelligent person knows you're not getting that when you can push the bullet into the hole with the leverage of a rockchucker.

    Keep believing you have cold welding in the neck. It makes no difference to me.
     
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    supercorndogs

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    "To satisfy me." :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: It was your question Dementia Joe.

    That was plain english, or do you not know what press fit means? I bet most of the press fit stuff you engineered probably fell through.

    You want plain english but can't comprehend it when you read it.

    You said "people probably have mild galling," <<<<that is a product of cold welding .......
     

    308pirate

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    You said "people probably have mild galling," <<<<that is a product of cold welding .......
    Nope

    Galling is a product of friction. I know you read these things on the internet and think you're an expert.