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Powder charge accuracy/long range

H

Headgear

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 5, 2010
164
0
66
West Harrison, Indiana
Is .1 grain close enough when shooting a 1000 yards or more? I am loading 45.0 Varget for my 308 rounds and have only been able to get to a 500 yard range so far. Soon I am going to go to a longer range and am just wondering if it matters if you are at .1 or is it better to get a finer charge.

I am guessing that at first I will be shooting steals but after a while I am going to want to try F-class or other competitive shooting. Any thoughts?
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yes.
</div></div>

Hell of an effort, take a break!

Should I assume from the one word answer that this is a worn out question?
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

For me, I consider occasional variance of a tenth of a grain out 45 grains much less significant to success than the consistency of one's performance and technique behind the rifle. The occasional tenth of a grain variance falls within the margins of expected performance on my digital scales.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Headgear, provided your reloading in the middle of your accuracy node, then yes 0.1grain should be fine. If your on either side of your accuracy node, then variances will make a difference, thats why its best to find the middle of the node because you allow yourself some variations either way +/- 0.1 wont change all that much.

I believe your wind reading skills and form behind the rifle will have to be elite world class for you to notice any differences in minor powder variations.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Cool! One less thing to worry about. Then I can focus more on my shooting ability and less fussing with loads.

Thanks guys!
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yes.
</div></div>

Hell of an effort, take a break!

Should I assume from the one word answer that this is a worn out question? </div></div>

His answer may appear to be short to you but he is right. It's all about what you demand as far as accuracy. That's why guys weigh to the .01grain or kernel if you will. FYI...OP... Of all the comments you read on here I promise you pay close attention to what Greg says for he is one of the most knowledgable that post here.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Those sweating over a kernel difference in powder charges are kidding themselves, not making better ammo. Small internal varations in individual cases, or even primers, have a bigger effect on trajectory than .1 grain of powder.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Very well but the OP question was about powder consistency. It would be foolish to dismiss the importance of accurate precise and concsistant powder measurements when it comes to long range accuracy.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those sweating over a kernel difference in powder charges are kidding themselves, not making better ammo. Small internal varations in individual cases, or even primers, have a bigger effect on trajectory than .1 grain of powder. </div></div>

Really?

I find it pretty easy to discern accuracy differences with .1gr increments as close as 300yds. But maybe I'm just "kidding myself".
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yes.
</div></div>

Hell of an effort, take a break!

Should I assume from the one word answer that this is a worn out question? </div></div>

You asked a question and he answered it....
You should think before you speak on this board when you have no idea who your talking too. Greg forgets more about shooting/loading in one day than you'll probably ever know in your lifetime.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Stand down friends, the OP is right.

Yes, .1gr is sufficient. For competition loads, and especially for LR competition loads, I will hand weigh each charge.

A properly developed load will be less vulnerable to small charge variances. If it is so critically necessary to stay within .1gr, then I try for another (what I call robust) node. In my world, velocity is whatever it is, accuracy and simplicity in achieving it come first.

While I hand weigh each charge, I also try to get the drop to be close enough that individual charge alterations are minimized. I do this by simply dropping ten of a charge, accumulating them in the pan, and dividing the total by ten. When I can regulate the sum to within .2 (or better) of ten times the desired individual charge weight, I can take some comfort that the hand weighing of the individual charges will go quicker and easier.

Sometimes I will bias my drop to ensure all charges are either properly exact or slightly heavy. This allows me to pinch out a bit and retrickle some of it back from between my fingers until the scale steps up to the proper weight. Excess gets dropped into a catch pan, etc. I think this is better than adding from an outside source, but it's really just a matter of personal preference.

My basic philosophy about practical handloading for practical shooting (as opposed to BR techniques) is predicated on the maxim that whatever gets the job done most easily is better, and that individual technique steps have to carry their weight and have a significantly large enough benefit to justify their employment. This requires a sober acceptance that some accuracy will fall by the wayside, but I think the small accuracy loss buffers the handloader from becoming an obsessive automaton.

Yes, I take pride in doing the handloading task effectively, but nothing is done for any reason beyond its utter necessity toward producing a positive outcome. Large efforts at the cost of diminishing returns tend not to be incorporated within my regimen.

For me, handloading is not an avocation; it is a necessary evil.

Greg
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

I definitely agree that .1 grain (+/-) can have an effect. There are many on this site that can truly see it. I cannot. I load with a RCBS Chargemaster and my 308 is in its node at 45 Varget with 175 SMK. I do verify each load at 45 on the dot before it goes down the neck.
One must control all the things they can. I can control powder charge now. There are many other things I am learning to control (overcome). Mirage, wind, temp, etc. are still on my "To Do" list. But I am learning.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

The K.I.S.S. Principle.....

Since the end result is consistency being key to accuracy, and removing as much error as sagaciously possible is the means to the end...it stands to reason that precisely uniform charges are the goal, per weighing powder.

With respect to variances in charge weight possibly having an effect on "accuracy" one only has cut to the chase and ponder this; weighing out a charge with an error is just as difficult as weighing out the correct charge. I use a good beam scale to weigh each charge and always figured it was well worth my effort to simply do it right every time.

.01 grains of error is stupid easy to see on the pointer.....
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

"...the OP question was about powder consistency. It would be foolish to dismiss the importance of accurate precise and concsistant powder measurements.."

The OP's question was greater consistancy than .1 gr. and the answer is any better that that is irrelivant.

No one is suggesting being sloppy but there is a rational limit to the value of "accurate, precise and concisistant (sic) powder measurements." Just how far out should we take the zeros in order to be "precise" on anything?

Those who are certain powder need be or should be more consistant than .1 gr. (does "consistant" begin at .01 or .001 grain?) are kidding themselves but if it gives them more confidence they should go for it, no matter the cost. But, again, the internal volume of cases is too inconsisant for any greater precision than .1 gr. to matter.

I have two excellant beam scales but they sure won't resolve to .01 (one hundredth) grain. That's ten times better than any beam powder scale I know of and any but some quite costly lab type digitals are specified to do.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

I know exactly what the OP was saying...

Over complicate it if you may, rationalize a degree of "good enough" if you must, discuss it ad nauseum if you will...my point is that doing it absolutely right is no harder than doing it wrong, so why bother trying to understand how much wrong can be tolerated within the system?

My load is 45.0 grains.....

44.9 is not enough, please add powder.

45.1 is too much, please remove powder.

Pretty simple, unless the only point of this whole discussion is to justify being too lazy to avoid making corrections, or not patient enough to do it right to begin with.

Weighing powder is one of the variables that we have complete and total control over........
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

I have to fall in line with Greg:

A) a fully developed load can be recreated with (somewhat worse than) 0.1 gr accuracy
B) finding that fuly developed load might require a couple of batches of reloads where the charges are weighted to (slightly) beter than 0.1 gr.

For example: My 155 Scenar load has a (optimal) charge weight of 47.8 gr and the window where all cartriges shoot 'well' starts at 47.65 gr and goes through 47.90 gr. Now, knowing the edges of the window allows me to throw a CW, measure it, and pretty much drop it in the case. Had I not bothered to fid the 'window' I would not have known the tollerance of the load to CW variarions.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

"...my point is that doing it absolutely right is no harder than doing it wrong, "

I made a living doing "precision" electronics work in the space and defence industries. Believe me, I know there is a finite limit to both what is needed AND what is practical. Even if we could weigh a powder charge to with a consistancy of .00001 gr, or seat consistanly to an OAL of .00001", it would gain us absolutely nothing. There are MUCH more critical things that go into building an accurate load than charge consistancy better than .1 gr.

Computers are nice for figgering things to extreme and unneeded lengths but we went to the moon and came back with some complex engineering largely done with slide rules. Slide rules certainly aren't precise by today's standards but they were "good enough." Being "better" than good enough isn't any better than plenty good enough so it has no value; rationalize that any way you wish but it's clearly true! Ditto for anything else, Greg is correct.
smile.gif
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Limited to 300 yards at my club, I cannot answer this for my self. So, I ask here instead:

At longer ranges, say 600 to 1000 yards, how "much" difference does ±.1 grains variation on a 45.0 grain load show up on paper in ideal conditions? And, how can you be sure that you can "hold" the difference?

Thanks for your first hand experienced answers.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Headgear</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hell of an effort, take a break!

Should I assume from the one word answer that this is a worn out question? </div></div>


99.9% of the questions asked on forums now have been answered at least 10 times.. Most asked at least 2 times a week. Everything I ask i google and search for at least 10 min and if I come up with nothing then I ask.

for 1 you wont get bitched at and butt hurt..

2 you'll save a lot of us time and our keys that spell use the search button and or google.

Being one of them when I fist used threads I know how it goes.. And have learned.
But this was far from the most common asked question so your still in the clear.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

"how "much" difference does ±.1 grains variation on a 45.0 grain load show up on paper in ideal conditions?"

Okay, that's a valid puzzle, in line with the topic. But the effect of any variation isn't really subject to projection. (Well, maybe it is for some folks but not for me!
smile.gif
)

A large part of the issue at long ranges is E.S. (extreme spread) of the velocity. If the velocity cnanges the drop will also change and the velocity effect will become greater the further out you shoot. Obviously, barrel harmonics at the moment of bullet exit also matters; if the barrel is pointing high, a low velocity bullet may well hit higher than expected.

What neophyts often have trouble with is that after a certain point, precisely weighted charges aren't a large part of ES. Rather, a low ES requries a working balance of the right charge of the right powder, and the primer, and the bullet/seating (OAL), and, maybe, which way the ducks are flying on a given day. Meaning there are probably some intangibles we still don't understand.

We do know that getting a consistant powder burn and the best time:pressure curve depends more on the right peak and average pressure than on a precisly weighed charge.

A correctly identified charge will have a moderatly wide window in which small variations have little or no effect on either accuracy or velocity. That is what Greg meant when he cited a "properly developed" load being more important than super precise charges. Thing is, a super precise but poorly chosen charge will shoot poorly no matter how precisely it's measured!

That's about as far as I can take it.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BAT_Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
At longer ranges, say 600 to 1000 yards, how "much" difference does ±.1 grains variation on a 45.0 grain load show up on paper in ideal conditions? </div></div>

Well, I had someone tell me that a tenth of varget could mean a 20fps difference, which I find hard to believe since it takes me a whole grain to make an additional 40fps.

If you want to spend extra time reloading you are FAR better off spending it on your brass.

This topic and a couple of the posts in here should be part of a sticky imo.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<span style="color: #3333FF">"..how can you be sure that you can "hold" the difference?"

I don't understand the question. ??</span>

My question was poorly asked. I have marveled for years at the efforts of hunters at the range worrying about that last 1/4 inch click of adjustment on a 3-9X scope, mounted in see-through rings, fired without solid support of rest or bipod. In a proper rest, the rifle may be capable of 1 to 1.5 MOA but as fired, probably 3 to 4 MOA. Yet, they worry about 1/4" scope adjustment just to feel better.

My question should have been, are most shooter's skills sufficient and rifles repeatable enough to verify that .1 grain makes a difference. I understand that small variations are magnified greatly as the range increases, but I was wondering if anyone had quantified the velocity difference or vertical spread caused by 0.1, 0.2, etc grains difference.

I am a recovering BR shooter who now dabbles with tactical and varmint rifles. Of course, I used finer grained powders and shot 100 and 200 yards in BR, but shot some small groups without weighing charges. After 20 plus years of "dropping" charges by volume without concern for weight, I was stunned recently to find that my trusty Neil Jones measure had varied by a range of .5 grains during 50 drops of 44.0 grs of Varget.

I began to wonder how much variation does it take to really show up on target. I can, and will, test this at 300 yards after healing from cataract surgery. Out of curiosity, I did tear down a box of Federal 308 175 GMM to weigh. The powder was larger grained than Varget and varied by .6 grains in 20 rounds. This is premium ammo that shoots well in many rifles. Thus, my question.

<span style="color: #3366FF">"If you want to spend extra time reloading you are FAR better off spending it on your brass."</span>

BCP, thanks for the suggestion but Lapua doesn't require nearly as much work as the BR brass of the past. I still prep it, but no more neck turning, pushing shoulders back for wildcats, etc. That is why I am a recovering BR guy.
wink.gif


OP, not trying to hijack your thread. I think this is related to your question.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

My PERSONAL experience ONLY... I throw all my charges that I plan to shoot out to 300 yards. My Harrell's premium is a very good measure. And with some PRACTICE AND EXPERIENCE, I can and do throw +/- .1 grain. And a great deal of my powder is IMR extruded or "stick" powder. Yes kernels get cut. The world keeps spinning. Weight it and if the charge is too heavy or light dump it back in the hopper. That's why they have a little hole or a lid that comes off.

For shooting 600 to 1,000 yards I usually tend to throw just a tad (that's a technical term) light and trickle up. If it's inside a tenth... I let it go.

I have told you what I do. What you do is strictly up to you. You have to decide what you are going to do. But honestly, you're beating a dead horse.

Good luck.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Victor, I've long read your posts and respect your opinion and experience. Don't see how I'm beating a dead horse when I have never seen this proven.

You're an old BR guy and tooling man. I'm an old inspector and CMM guy. I'm also an old ASA spy. I like Ronald Reagan's "trust but verify" motto. Guess it goes back to, if you believe it effects it, then it does. No emperical evidence needed.

If my question has irritated easy going Victor, I will gladly let it go. That's why I read more than post: Tactical guys hate group shooting, BR guys think tactical guys are wannabe operators, varmint guys just like to kill something. I could give a happy sh*t about us versus them thinking and stay above the ruckus. Hell, I just like to shoot.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You asked a question and he answered it....
You should think before you speak on this board when you have no idea who your talking too. Greg forgets more about shooting/loading in one day than you'll probably ever know in your lifetime.</div></div>

I apologize for any ruffled feathers. Especially to you Greg, it was meant in good humor but I was in a very sarcastic mood. I lost about $15,000.00 this past week in truck repairs and pricks breaking in and stealing shit from my business. My comment was supposed to be funny not offend anyone. After seeing it again it does look a little smart-assed. Unfortunately it seemed ok at the time.

I do appreciate the info and I have been reading Greg for quite a while and I assure you, when he talks, I listen. I meant no disrespect!
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Headgear, Greg is well respected and a very helpful fellow. Sadly, I remember how shabbily he was treated on BR central some years back. He asked intelligent questions and was verbally backhanded a few times and left the site.

I am sorry to say that I lacked the courage to speak up on his behalf. The site lost a good man. I will, however, speak up for you. I don't think you, sir, were out of line. I, too, was very interested in your question but lacked the experience to answer it.

Best regards and happy shooting.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Guys,

No problem on this end. I don't get upset much any more. That's just one reason I'm not a moderator any longer.

I have shot some high power, shot a lot of BR out to 300 and shot some of the 1K stuff. When I can make it to the range, I just like to shoot. What ever goes bang that I happen to have ammo for that day.

I agree with the thought that if YOU think it helps, then that's for you. But I have grown to the point that I have learned when to take a step and when to remove that step from the process.

Happy weekend to everyone.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BAT_Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My question should have been, are most shooter's skills sufficient and rifles repeatable enough to verify that .1 grain makes a difference.
</div></div>

With a slower burning powder like varget? No way in hell. Maybe if everything else was equal and the rifle was mounted in a vice. Benchrest you *might* see it but I really think a lot of that stuff is in the shooter's head and not the rifle.

Also, a lot of the processes people go throw when they hand load are more for enjoyment than anything else.

To be perfectly honest I find buying this shit just as much fun as using it.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

@Headgear,

The real question sir is ES / SD. Developing a really good load can take some time. Normally there are 2 accuracy "Nodes". One is usually down in the lower pressure area, the other is generally in the upper pressure area approaching maximum working loads.

Most of the time, I find, the upper node to be better. The reason for me is, it tends to burn more of the powder. Thus it is usually "cleaner burning". Incomplete burn leaves a bunch of "crap" in your barrel that can add up quickly to powder fowling, and a measurable loss in accuracy.

As Fuzzball said, the effects of Extreme Spread "ES" at long range can really mess with your ability to Make A Hit. For instance: -- Load = 308 win - 175gr SMK @ 2600fps nominal
-- @ exactly 2600fps
Drop @ 1000 yards = -423.7" (not truly exact, but more than good enough for this example)
Wind Drift @ 10mph = 108.3"

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Same load but with the Extreme Spread (ES) added in. In this case Our ES = 50 fps
-- @ exactly 2650fps
Drop @ 1000 yards = -404.3"
Wind Drift @ 10mps = 104.8"

-----------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, 50 fps can make a difference at 1000 yards. The closer in you are, the less the difference is. So what it amounts to, .1gr difference may or may not make any notable difference. But 50fps certainly can make a difference. This is why so many people will say you must have a chronograph. Other wise you end up having to do some shooting at 1000 yards to attempt to determine your Drop & Drift figures to try to work out what your ES is the hard and long way. Normally you shoot over a chrono for ES then you "Proof" that load @ 1k and if they both agree, you are gold.

Good Shooting,
Gary
P.S. I fully agree with Greg L, Reloading is a necessary evil. I reload so I can shoot, not shoot so I can reload
smile.gif
Do what is Needful, then Get Out and Shoot!
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...my point is that doing it absolutely right is no harder than doing it wrong, "</div></div>

Somehow I appear as the person being responded too, but the quote is not mine.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...my point is that doing it absolutely right is no harder than doing it wrong, "</div></div>

Somehow I appear as the person being responded too, but the quote is not mine. </div></div>


The evils of the quick reply feature...

On aside...all this nonsense about how much difference a tenth of one grain will make. Why bother with it at all and simply load the correct charge to begin with?

Wait, someone already said that....
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Bart Bobbitt posted May 28, 2005:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charge weight spread ain't all it's often cranked up to be. For
example, in 1991 when a half dozen of us were developing the load for
Sierra's then new 155-gr. .308 Palma bullet, we tried several powder
types. All charges were metered from our measures as that's how the
ammo would be loaded. Charge weight spread ranged from about 1/10th to
4/10ths of a grain. The powder that produced the most uniform muzzle
velocity and pressure (by tests at the HP White lab) was AA2520. But
it was also the worst for accuracy. IMR4895 had a 3/10ths grain charge
weight spread, average muzzle velocity and pressure spread AND produced
by far the best accuracy -sub 3-inches at 600 yards.

Consider the fact that virtually all primers cause a greater velocity
spread than a 2/10ths grain charge weight spread. And testing muzzle
velocity from a shoulder fired rifle is NOT a good thing to do because
two people will get different averages and spreads with the same
shooting gear just because they ain't holding the rifle the same way.
Reliable muzzle velocity data is only attained by shooting the rifle
from a machine rest on in absolute free-recoil (untouched by humans
during firing) from sand bags. A proper prone position is second best.
Hanging on to a double bagged centerfire rifle with one or both hands
so it won't recoil off the rest is not all that great for velocity
testing. There can be as much as 100 fps or more velocity difference
between two people shooting the same rifle and ammo.

Go figure...... </div></div>

I am thinking that my 12" groups at 500 yards will improve most with better recoil management.... But I am so desperate, I am weighting each charge
frown.gif
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

To be perfectly honest I find buying this shit just as much fun as using it.

</div></div>

I fully agree with this statement and I am just starting to get into this. For every $1 I make at Cabela's, $1.50 goes right back to the store.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On aside...all this nonsense about how much difference a tenth of one grain will make. Why bother with it at all and simply load the correct charge to begin with</div></div>

I am using a Chargemaster and am charging every round to the correct amount, within a tenth. I have noticed that when using Varget, a tenth can be four or five little pieces of powder and that was what I was more concerned about. How fine of a measurement is enough? I'm sure that the longer you shoot out to, the more it would show up. But then again, wind and the other environmental issues, shooters ability and the rifles ability at some point over come the need to weigh each charge to some fine degree. I guess that's what I was asking. Where do you guys feel that line is?

It as been a busy weekend and I haven't been able to read the entire thread yet but I'll bet my question has been answered plenty.

Thanks again!
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Clark, your google-fu greatly surpasses mine. That is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you, sir.

I work in a precision measuring lab and am hammered constantly on resolution and accuracy. It is my experience that engineers often use tolerances outside the realm of our ability to manufacture or for me to verify in the lab. Yet that three micron tolerance on the drawing is often deviated to 10 microns on the part. Why? Because it does not affect fit, form, or function and is acceptable to the customer. So why not put reasonable tolerances on the drawing to begin with?

If one is trying to measure to .1 grains, then the equipment should be accurate to .01 verified with a certified standard. I know this is a hobby but sometimes I think that we get hung up on numbers like our engineers often do on our drawings.

I'm not looking for shortcuts. As I get older, I am trying to simplify. I turned necks religiously for years but now the brass is so good that I don't find it necessary. If not needed, why do it? But I know also that, if you are trying for absolute perfection, then that .1 grain is one less variable to worry about.

<span style="color: #3366FF">"On aside...all this nonsense about how much difference a tenth of one grain will make. Why bother with it at all and simply load the correct charge to begin with?"</span>

<span style="color: #3333FF">Wait, someone already said that....</span> Tripwire, good point. Speed costs. How fast can we afford to go? In manufacturing, the cost difference between holding .001" and .0001" can be astounding in equipment and labor. If we can afford it, someone, somewhere, can build the perfect part. But at what cost. Our cost, with limited equipment, is time. I love precision. It pays my bills and it is my hobby as well. But I have limited time and funds, at work and in my hobby, so I sometimes question the value added by that last nano-kernel of powder. Would my skills benefit more with more time spent behind the rifle and less time in my reloading lab fretting the .0001" dimension or the .1 grain weight?
grin.gif


Thanks all for some great thought provoking answers.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

"Originally Posted By: Fuzzball"...my point is that doing it absolutely right is no harder than doing it wrong, "
--------------------------------------------------------

Mitch, I AIN'T the <span style="text-decoration: underline">author</span> of that pointless comment.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Originally Posted By: Fuzzball"...my point is that doing it absolutely right is no harder than doing it wrong, "
--------------------------------------------------------

Mitch, I AIN'T the <span style="text-decoration: underline">author</span> of that pointless comment. </div></div>

I'm the author of that and the fact that you think it's pointless speaks volumes....

Try to visualize a good quality beam scale, a powder measure, and a trickler.

Your targeted load is 45.0 grains of X Powder. The powder measure is set a few tenths light. You throw a light charge in your pan and set it on the scale. The pointer reads 3 tenths light. You twist on your trickler until the pointer reads perfectly that the charge is in fact EXACTLY 45.0 grains....not 44.9 grains or 45.1 grains. It is as accurately weighed as your beam scale allows, charge weight discrepancy = non-issue.

Some people.......
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<span style="font-style: italic">"Consider the fact that virtually all primers cause a greater velocity spread than a 2/10ths grain charge weight spread."</span>

May be due to primers, may be due to cases, may be due to both. No way we can prove it but we can prove it happens.


<span style="font-style: italic">"And testing muzzle velocity from a shoulder fired rifle is NOT a good thing to do because two people will get different averages and spreads with the same shooting gear just because they ain't holding the rifle the same way."</span>

Never tested mine that way but I suspect it's true.


<span style="font-style: italic">"Reliable muzzle velocity data is only attained by shooting the rifle from a machine rest"</span>

Only meaning the most consistant MV; it's NOT what a shooter will actually see on the range!
_________________________________________


Clark, you presented some interesting points. The significance is that agonizing over +/- .1 grain of powder is a novice thing - it just sounds so "<span style="font-style: italic">right</span>"! But the effect is much like shoveling water against a rising tide; keeps you busy and may even be fun for some folks but it sure doesn't accomplish anything.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

A) No ruffled feathers on my carcase. Believe me, I learned my lesson on that one the hard way. I'll just say one thing..., Mike D.

B) Re: BR Central; probably my finest attribute is my poor memory.

I, too, am a recovering BR shooter. The good part is I never had enough moolah to really get myself overly invested. That said, I honestly have no regrets, and attribute my earlier motivations and insights to a BR-centric viewpoint.

Since then, I feel something like what I imagine a recovering addict must feel. Most of what I learn is sorta related to, "Just say no...". I have essentially taken everything I took as Gospel when I was shooting (trying, anyway...) BR and isolated each segment, reviewing and testing its relevance and significance to the kind of shooting I <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> to be doing (i.e The fun comes first, all else, second...).

Simplify, and then simplify again. Start with the goals, then find the barest minimums that can reliably deliver them.

These days, the goals tend to disappear behind intervening/interfering clouds. My health plainly sucks, and it affects my shooting. 15-20 years of combating cancer and heart disease, as well as taking an active role in my Wife's significant infirmities will have that result. Quitting isn't in my nature, but a long succession of less than stellar performances can be wearing. So far, I am still in the hunt.

Greg
 
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Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Greg...we should chat.

I know a little about the Finger Fakes, and SW NY. We've probably fished the same holes.

Figuratively speaking, at a minimum.......
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BAT_Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is my experience that engineers often use tolerances outside the realm of our ability to manufacture or for me to verify in the lab. </div></div>

The mounting holes for the antenna select relay for the B1B are specified to be located with a .0002" tolerance. Every state in the union got a few little pork barrel subcontracts, and a couple were handed to me at my job to be program manager, project engineer, technician, and janitor.
The sub sub contractor machine shop could not hold those tolerances. They failed in our receiving inspection. I get called down into the MRB [material review board] dungeon for disposition of the parts. I knew the requirement was functionally BS, but I knew it was a contractual reality, and Rockwell would inspect what WE shipped. So I did an RTV [return to vendor], and they had to mill out new Aluminum housings.

That is why we have hobbies, so we can cut through the BS and just do what makes sense, right?
Wrong for this hobby.
Accuracy involves rituals that may or may not be cost-time effective to eliminate through controlled tests.

I have all kinds of accuracy techniques I can't test, because the wind puts the effect of the technique being tested down in the noise.

It makes matters more complicated that benchrest voodoo gets offered as advise on the internet.

It is hard to know which accuracy rituals to pick.
I think I am going to start turning necks again... on a limited basis.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Greg, I salute you, Marine. You clearly have your priorities in order. All the best to you and your bride.

Clark, maybe the same is true for tactical/longrange shooting but I read that Sam Wilson of Wilson Hand Dies fame said that BR shooters were such gadget freaks that if he won a match this weekend with a bicycle wheel on the side of his rifle, next week everyone on the line would have a wheel attached. LOL. There is not doubt that "I" am the weakest link in any marksmanship endeavor.

It's all good as long as it stays fun. A hobby pales in priority to health issues.

Good shooting and happy reloading to all.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

As a high power shooter, the 10 ring on a 1000 yard target is 20 inches in diameter. Using the 50 fps example, that is top or bottom of the ten ring. If your first shot was the bottom of the 10 and your next is 50 fps slower you'll hit the 8 ring on it with the same hold and wind. I haven't shoot the 1000 yard target or loaded for it but in theory 50 fps could be a 10 or an 8. I don't have stats for 175 grain loads but my limited .308 data shows about 40 fps on .7 grain of RL15 for 150's. I'd estimate 15-20 fps for .1 gr and 175's.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

BAT_Boy,

If you want to play around with what .1 grain will do at 1k, get QL and QT. In the calibers I shoot, +/- 0.1 grain will equal about 25f/s which equals less than +/- 1.0" at 1k.

HTH,
DocB
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

They may or may not be economical to eliminate through controlled tests, but when money isn't an option, and all one has to expend is time, then one does what one can. Agreed, doing everything is Herculean; but one can do a lot, and it can yield much.

It is precisely because the wind makes fools of us that I flatly refuse to be a slave to convention.

You can approach accuracy from either end of the arrow, broad or narrow. I have plenty enough to do at the broad end before I tackle the narrow.

My effort goes into uniforming the means of ignition, and in developing a method for managing neck tension that takes work hardening into account.

Toward the first, I ream flash holes. That's it.

Toward the other, I adjust the F/L die upward so only the end portion of the neck gets sized. Starting (each reloading cycle) with minimal resized neck length, I increase the resizing length until a seated bullet grasped between thumb and forefinger cannot be rotated inside the case mouth. That's my neck tension adjustment.

I single feed by hand, so this minimal neck tension is not a feeding issue.

Also please note, the unsized portion of the neck could be expected to better center the case neck within the chamber. I shoot SAAMI chambers, so this could be significant.

The rest involves seating depth and charge weighing. It's not rocket surgery, folks...

I haven't fished since I left NJ. The fish worth catching are all in the ocean.

Greg
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

One needs to develop reloading techniques and use those to develop a accurite load for the weapon in question that gives the lowest SD\ES, and be able to repeat the process over and over again, having a dead nuts accurite scale like my Prometheus is part of the process, not a Band-Aid for poor reloading skills.
 
Re: Powder charge accuracy/long range

Actually, I had(have?) a Chrony Beta. It got soaked during a stealthy sun shower, and has't been even vaguely reasonable ever since. Hence, my target is my chrono.
 
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