Power trimmer vs Annealer vs Powder Scale

I am in the market to upgrade my reloading bench. Currently my bench has a manual trimmer, handheld chamfer/deburr tool, a charge master supreme but no annealer. I am looking at the amp annealer, autotrickler, and the Henderson power trimmer.

Would it be more wise to purchase the annealer first or the auto trickler and power trimmer since they are about the same price together?
 
What is your volume of brass? If you can keep manually trimming for awhile then there is your answer.

Well the real answer is you need to buy all three really.
 
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Of course we don’t know what volume you are shooting or your use (hunting or competing or whatever), but personally:
Trimmer and auto trickler - I got sick and tired of trimming and chamfering brass, so that was first for me. I used a RCBS scale for years and then upgraded to a A&D scale with auto trickler and thrower. It saves me a lot of time when loading hundreds of rounds for prairie dog hunts.
Then Annealer - I shot 308 brass in 600 yd competitions for at least 8 times without annealing and was still shooting good groups. (Back before annealing became popular). Then l got an AMP annealer.
 
The trimmer and the scale will speed up the process and make your life immensely easier.

The Annealer just improves your loading and prolongs your brass, so if its about making life easier go for the other two first. But all three work hand in hand when trying to load precision.
 
I use a SINCLAIR LE Wilson CASE MOUTH DEBURRING TOOL WITH HOLDER.

It fits in my Dewalt Drill that I mount in my bench vice. Or I can use it manually

SINCLAIR CASE MOUTH DEBURRING TOOL WITH HOLDER

For trimming I use a Forster Classic Case Trimmer that I've used for the last 30 years. It works and is fast enough.

Classic Case Trimmer

And for powder charging I use an RCBS Competition Powder measure, and a Frankford Arsenal Powder Trickler. I can drop, weigh and trickle as fast as most of the RCBS Chargemasters, and I don't need a soda straw to make mine work properly

I don't bother with annealing as I'm happy with the case life I get from my brass at my load levels.

And if brown stuff impacts the fan blades, having reloading stuff that doesn't need power to function is a quality that can't be duplicated.

And yes, I use a powered scale (I have several), but I always have a Ohaus 10-10 as a back-up.
 
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Giraud or Henderson first. The consistency from this will actually improve loads. I have an fx and it shrunk sd/es maybe 3-5% not really a meaningful number.

Amp won’t make better groups just keep brass for longer.

Seriously the giraud is the best tool on my bench and I love it

IMG_9485.jpeg
 
My thoughts:

On the trimmer, I have the Giraud and purchased it before I even did articles and reviews for the industry. At some point I should probably write a review of it. I found trimming so onerous that this was the first powered piece of reloading equipment that I purchased. It is breathtakingly fast and easy and it's results are very consistent. The price is also substantially lower than the other stuff you have mentioned at ~$600. You may or may not see a small accuracy improvement in your ammo. I expect if you are into long range shooting your hourly wage is enough it won't take much time for it to pay for itself in time it saves you either way and that ignores how bad your hands hurt after manually trimming, deburing, and chamfering. Ouch.

On the powder measure, you are already part way up the tree here as you have a $400 automated meter. The autotrickler will improve both your accuracy and speed. You are currently at +- .1gr and would be going to +-.02gr. That improved measurement accuracy equates to around +-6fps on a 6.5CM (more with smaller calibers) you can see the math breakdown on that in my Matchmaster review from a few years ago. The time consideration is also important though at least your not tearing up your hands while waiting and, depending on how much you reload, we might not be talking about that much total time.

About annealing, to be frank, I think it is a very small group of shooters for whom the AMP annealer might make sense. It's $1,800 bare bones and $2,500 equipped to feed itself and analyze your brass. Flame annealers start at ~$200 and have auto-feed at that price. $200 can pay itself back in brass pretty quick, $2k, not so fast. What I understand learning from those far more knowledgeable than myself such as Cortina, is that the improvement in the quality of your loads (both in group sizes and velocity spread) is marginal from annealing and even more marginal from doing annealing with the great precision of an AMP. I have not seen noticable improvement in my SD or group sizes from flame annealing though I do think neck tension feels a little lighter and more uniform when seating the bullet. Maybe there is some improvement burried in the noise of my data but it is small enough that I would need to do a large data set statistical analysis to find it. Realistically, were talking mostly about case life with an annealer. For my part I would go with a less expensive flame unit. I bought the BurstFire this year and am quite happy with the performance. I should have it's review posted soon.

So..... Purchase the trimmer first. Fuck processing the 1,200 peices of brass you have sitting around without a good trimmer and I always start off new (usually once fired from factory ammo in my case) brass trimmed to even lenght, deburred, and chamfered. If you get enough scratch before you have a few firings on the brass, do the scale next to improve your speed and load quality. If your shooting so much your brass gets 4 or so firings on it before you get the money for the powder measure, then buy a flame annealer next instead to bring that hardness back down and keep it from cracking. When it comes to an AMP, I would not buy one unless I was a national level competitor or someone in one of those professions where an hour of my time fetches me a week or so of my fellow mans.
 
My thoughts:

On the trimmer, I have the Giraud and purchased it before I even did articles and reviews for the industry. At some point I should probably write a review of it. I found trimming so onerous that this was the first powered piece of reloading equipment that I purchased. It is breathtakingly fast and easy and it's results are very consistent. The price is also substantially lower than the other stuff you have mentioned at ~$600. You may or may not see a small accuracy improvement in your ammo. I expect if you are into long range shooting your hourly wage is enough it won't take much time for it to pay for itself in time it saves you either way and that ignores how bad your hands hurt after manually trimming, deburing, and chamfering. Ouch.

On the powder measure, you are already part way up the tree here as you have a $400 automated meter. The autotrickler will improve both your accuracy and speed. You are currently at +- .1gr and would be going to +-.02gr. That improved measurement accuracy equates to around +-6fps on a 6.5CM (more with smaller calibers) you can see the math breakdown on that in my Matchmaster review from a few years ago. The time consideration is also important though at least your not tearing up your hands while waiting and, depending on how much you reload, we might not be talking about that much total time.

About annealing, to be frank, I think it is a very small group of shooters for whom the AMP annealer might make sense. It's $1,800 bare bones and $2,500 equipped to feed itself and analyze your brass. Flame annealers start at ~$200 and have auto-feed at that price. $200 can pay itself back in brass pretty quick, $2k, not so fast. What I understand learning from those far more knowledgeable than myself such as Cortina, is that the improvement in the quality of your loads (both in group sizes and velocity spread) is marginal from annealing and even more marginal from doing annealing with the great precision of an AMP. I have not seen noticable improvement in my SD or group sizes from flame annealing though I do think neck tension feels a little lighter and more uniform when seating the bullet. Maybe there is some improvement burried in the noise of my data but it is small enough that I would need to do a large data set statistical analysis to find it. Realistically, were talking mostly about case life with an annealer. For my part I would go with a less expensive flame unit. I bought the BurstFire this year and am quite happy with the performance. I should have it's review posted soon.

So..... Purchase the trimmer first. Fuck processing the 1,200 peices of brass you have sitting around without a good trimmer and I always start off new (usually once fired from factory ammo in my case) brass trimmed to even lenght, deburred, and chamfered. If you get enough scratch before you have a few firings on the brass, do the scale next to improve your speed and load quality. If your shooting so much your brass gets 4 or so firings on it before you get the money for the powder measure, then buy a flame annealer next instead to bring that hardness back down and keep it from cracking. When it comes to an AMP, I would not buy one unless I was a national level competitor or someone in one of those professions where an hour of my time fetches me a week or so of my fellow mans.
I bought the Annie Annealer by Fluxeon. Half the price of the AMP and does exactly the same thing. I will say customer service is shit. Absolutely shit. However it’s a good annealer. Took me 6months to get it back in ‘21. And from what I hear? The service hasn’t changed unfortunately. Sad really. But I have 5000 rds of brass. Out of my Scar 17, that equates to a minimum of 35000 rds before I ditch the brass and upwards of 45k rounds. More than I’ll ever see.
 
I bought the Annie Annealer by Fluxeon. Half the price of the AMP and does exactly the same thing. I will say customer service is shit. Absolutely shit. However it’s a good annealer. Took me 6months to get it back in ‘21. And from what I hear? The service hasn’t changed unfortunately. Sad really. But I have 5000 rds of brass. Out of my Scar 17, that equates to a minimum of 35000 rds before I ditch the brass and upwards of 45k rounds. More than I’ll ever see.

Exactly the same thing is a big stretch.

Does it anneal to some degree - yes.

Is it scientifically backed point of consistent annealing your exact case requires - absolutely not.
 
Exactly the same thing is a big stretch.

Does it anneal to some degree - yes.

Is it scientifically backed point of consistent annealing your exact case requires - absolutely not.
The only thing the AMP does? Is figure out optimal annealing time down to the 1/10th of a second. Both are down to the 1/10 of a second. What you pay for on the AMP? Is the hardness testing they performed on most brass. THAT is where the cost comes from. NOT the sneaker itself. An induction annealer is the most consistent annealer out there and they all do the same thing. Secondly, 1/10-2/10s difference on annealing will provide the exact same results. Let’s say AMP anneals to 1/10 of a second consistently yet you anneal with an Annie and you’re off 2/10s of a second. Does it make a difference? Fuck no. But hey! It’s your money. Anyone that buys a Lambo and gets beaten by a corvette will never call their Lambo a piece of shit right? After all they soent gobs more so “they have the best” regardless of the outcome…
 
The only thing the AMP does? Is figure out optimal annealing time down to the 1/10th of a second. Both are down to the 1/10 of a second. What you pay for on the AMP? Is the hardness testing they performed on most brass. THAT is where the cost comes from. NOT the sneaker itself. An induction annealer is the most consistent annealer out there and they all do the same thing. Secondly, 1/10-2/10s difference on annealing will provide the exact same results. Let’s say AMP anneals to 1/10 of a second consistently yet you anneal with an Annie and you’re off 2/10s of a second. Does it make a difference? Fuck no. But hey! It’s your money. Anyone that buys a Lambo and gets beaten by a corvette will never call their Lambo a piece of shit right? After all they soent gobs more so “they have the best” regardless of the outcome…

Tell me how you figured out the exact time and temperature required for your brass to restructure its granular properties?
 
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Te
Tell me how you figured out the exact time and temperature required for your brass to restructure its granular properties?
ll me exactly how the AMP tests temperature? It DOESNT! It burns a piece of brass and then specifies a time to anneal. Brass anneals from 600F-1400F. It’s time that determines annealing. A homemade annealer anneals the exact same way the AMP does. Induction is induction. It’s the time. An orange glow? Its annealed. On this forum there was a guy who specified his SD was not single digit using the AMP. There so many factors and variables to consistent ammo that if you do everything perfect but your annealing time is off? You will NEVER see a difference. Never! Federal GMM is the most consistent store bought ammo or one of and I’ve measured a box? Ogive to base is off up .007”, datum to base is off .003” and powder is volumetric and off by 10ths of a grain. So HOW CONSISTENT do you really have to be? You do HAVE wiggle room.
 
Tell me how you figured out the exact time and temperature required for your brass to restructure its granular properties?

That’s what I like about the amp - it’s easy. Works consistently and is dependable without a bunch of fiddlefucking around required. To each their own but I don’t get why people are negative about it - it’s a nice tool that does the job very well.
 
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Te

ll me exactly how the AMP tests temperature? It DOESNT! It burns a piece of brass and then specifies a time to anneal. Brass anneals from 600F-1400F. It’s time that determines annealing. A homemade annealer anneals the exact same way the AMP does. Induction is induction. It’s the time. An orange glow? Its annealed. On this forum there was a guy who specified his SD was not single digit using the AMP. There so many factors and variables to consistent ammo that if you do everything perfect but your annealing time is off? You will NEVER see a difference. Never! Federal GMM is the most consistent store bought ammo or one of and I’ve measured a box? Ogive to base is off up .007”, datum to base is off .003” and powder is volumetric and off by 10ths of a grain. So HOW CONSISTENT do you really have to be? You do HAVE wiggle room.

The temperature is known variable in testing the brass.

The amp is the only machine that can consistently and accurately anneal brass to the point of restructuring.

Does annealing change groups - no.

So other annealers achieve the perfect state of restricting for longevity- no. You yourself sai use some mystery orange mark
 
That’s what I like about the amp - it’s easy. Works consistently and is dependable without a bunch of fiddlefucking around required. To each their own but I don’t get why people are negative about it - it’s a nice tool that does the job very well.

Just trying to justify not spending the money. Nothing compares
 
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The temperature is known variable in testing the brass.

The amp is the only machine that can consistently and accurately anneal brass to the point of restructuring.

Does annealing change groups - no.

So other annealers achieve the perfect state of restricting for longevity- no. You yourself sai use some mystery orange mark
Wrong. If your brass hits an orange glow at 1.8 seconds? That’s a temperature of at LEAST 1000F in brass. It IS annealed. And it is consistent. The AMP doesn’t NOT monitor temperature. I assure you that the AMP is not 100% consistent on annealing temperatures. It might hit 1400? Because I believe they stated they do? However! It’s based off of time. And I can bet my life on it the annealing will vary at minimum 50F. Like I said. You’re paying for the cost it took them to hardness test every manufacturer of brass to get the approximate 90Hv None of the brass is exactly 90HV. It’ll vary +/- 5-10 on that scale. It’s the best out there due to the testing they did? But the Annie anneals brass consistently. You set the timer and it anneals to that time. Period. Consistent neck tension throughout.
 
Just trying to justify not spending the money. Nothing compares

More than others but certainly not unreasonable in this sport. I’ve seen several in the PX for around a grand.

I don’t even need to argue about time/temp - the simplicity was the biggest selling point in my view. I’ve had a Giraud flame annealer for years and use it rarely for gas gun stuff. Works fine but more to screw around with setting it up.
 
I am in the market to upgrade my reloading bench. Currently my bench has a manual trimmer, handheld chamfer/deburr tool, a charge master supreme but no annealer. I am looking at the amp annealer, autotrickler, and the Henderson power trimmer.

Would it be more wise to purchase the annealer first or the auto trickler and power trimmer since they are about the same price together?
What volume of brass are you processing? Is it Lapua, Alpha, or Peterson, etc.? If you've invested in high-quality brass, get the annealer. Are you reloading a ton of precision or hunting ammo? Or just small batches?

I bought an AMP Annealer - Great investment, use it every week after a shoot.
I also bought (a while ago) a Giraud Trimmer. I use it mostly for bulk reloading.
I shoot every weekend, and prep my brass throughout the week and reload throughout the week for the next shooting day. I have had a manual trimmer since 2008. For small batches of hunting or precision ammo, the manual trimmer has served me well.
 
Wrong. If your brass hits an orange glow at 1.8 seconds? That’s a temperature of at LEAST 1000F in brass. It IS annealed. And it is consistent. The AMP doesn’t NOT monitor temperature. I assure you that the AMP is not 100% consistent on annealing temperatures. It might hit 1400? Because I believe they stated they do? However! It’s based off of time. And I can bet my life on it the annealing will vary at minimum 50F. Like I said. You’re paying for the cost it took them to hardness test every manufacturer of brass to get the approximate 90Hv None of the brass is exactly 90HV. It’ll vary +/- 5-10 on that scale. It’s the best out there due to the testing they did? But the Annie anneals brass consistently. You set the timer and it anneals to that time. Period. Consistent neck tension throughout.

You’re wrong and that’s okay. That testing to find the point where the structure realigns in brass is everything and you’re just guessing with any other device. Period.
 
Giraud or Henderson first. The consistency from this will actually improve loads. I have an fx and it shrunk sd/es maybe 3-5% not really a meaningful number.

Amp won’t make better groups just keep brass for longer.

Seriously the giraud is the best tool on my bench and I love it

View attachment 8765623
I have almost the exact same setup minus the 419. I use a Prazipress. My wife uses a Co-ax
IMO I agree with him
My Giraud trimmer is my favorite tool for brass consistency and time saving. The only thing I would add is get a case holder that doesn’t offer the spring back mechanism. I posted FClass John’s video below. Instead of having a case holder made, some people use a 3d printed holder. You’ll get more consistent oal and chamfering.

The Amp is great but I’d buy the Giraud first.

 
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To delve into the annealer argument
I have a Giraud annealer that works wonderfully but I shoot a couple different calibers. It’s a little of a PITA to switch and then setup for the flame and time to anneal properly.

Both systems work but you buy the AMP to save time and be more consistent. Both work but I bought the AMP because of convenience and time. It’s not a make or break, but I’d buy it again just because of the quantity of brass I do. It’s a luxury reloading item. Honestly, most of the things are 🤷🏻‍♂️😂

Hell a balance scale is more accurate than some of the scales people use. But we buy the electronics for for convenience and time
 
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The precision of temperature in annealing -- not sure it's all that critical unless, for example, you offer an annealing service and as part of your business contract, you state you will achieve a certain percentage/consistency at a specified temperature.

Is that perfect temp required, though? I learned fillet brazing on chromoly tubes, using brass and silver (depending on application) as the fillet material. To get a good join, you bring the two adjoining CrMo tubes to a cherry red and then begin applying the brass or silver. The tubes' redness is the indicator that the join will cooperate, the fillet will create a good union with its adjacent/surrounding CrMo tube faces/contours. Cooler than that red, you will see the fillet created cosmetically but if you stress the join it will be seen as brittle and not really a "union."

Nobody doing fillet brazed CrMo bicycle frames is wasting time on "perfect temperature every time" measurement in deg F or C. And the amount of molecular shifting done there is more pressured/significant than in the annealing process of a case neck/shoulder.

Go back far enough in serious/competitive precision long range shooting and you'll find nobody annealed, or some people did with bare hands rotating a case over a flame, if they annealed at all. One might think all things in the past are "not good enough" if someone can throw technology at the situation and provide a "fix". But it doesn't always work that way. It may be that annealing -- especially finicky precise annealing like the AMP provides -- isn't really needed to get the job done. Unless your primary job is perfect brass softening, rather than precision shooting.

If I had to choose what next spendy item to get it would probably be a powered trimmer, but I use a Frankford Arsenal multi-station trimming device now and it seems to work okay. Not loading for BR.
 
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