Problems reloading precision ammo with Hornady 75gr BTHP

[Near miss]

I reach a Master classification in NRA Service Rifle shooting nothing but Hornady 75 HPBT in random Lake City 5.56X45 cases with Remington 7 1/2 primers and Alliant Reloder 15. Later on I replaced RL15 with Ramshot TAC with excellent results.

They were very forgiving to load and shoot. Unless Hornady changed the design of the bullet from 16 years ago, I have no idea how you guys find them difficult to use.

They clearly are MORE difficult to get grouping and are more sensitive to bore conditions.

This is however nothing new, if you look at discussion between tangent and secant ogives in bullets.

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[308pirate]

They clearly are MORE difficult to get grouping and are more sensitive to bore conditions.

This is however nothing new, if you look at discussion between tangent and secant ogives in bullets.

You are being redirected...

I'll take my own direct experience over that of others.

 

[Near miss]

I'll take my own direct experience over that of others.

Well it won't hurt me but just because you lucked it out does not mean the they are harder than usual to get running.
Bullets are different and of course there are bullets that play poorly with internal ballistics.
With 77 scenars I barely had to do anything, everything went like in a commercial.
69 scenar was even easier.

Even the 70 bergers were easy, which makes me think that berger could be utilizing their hybrid style model in them, because they were doing pretty good all-around. But maybe I lucked out.

I bought the hornadys thinking "they cannot be that bad to tune" and came to great realization that not all powders, barrels and bullets play out together.

Johnnys reloading bench shows similar experience, with bthp but particularly with the 73gr eld. It just did not shoot well with N140.

Do not get me wrong, 75 BTHP is a good bullet. Good price, decent BC, weight and good price.
But they are indeed more sensitive to bore conditions and that can itself lead to consistency problems as the throat/barrel fouls.

But 75gr loses in everything to tangent ogive SMK and Scenar except price. Just alone the fact that no manufacturer makes match ammo with them says the fact that even they cannot get it running.

 

[Yondering]

Well it won't hurt me but just because you lucked it out does not mean the they are harder than usual to get running.
Bullets are different and of course there are bullets that play poorly with internal ballistics.
With 77 scenars I barely had to do anything, everything went like in a commercial.
69 scenar was even easier.

Even the 70 bergers were easy, which makes me think that berger could be utilizing their hybrid style model in them, because they were doing pretty good all-around. But maybe I lucked out.

I bought the hornadys thinking "they cannot be that bad to tune" and came to great realization that not all powders, barrels and bullets play out together.

Johnnys reloading bench shows similar experience, with bthp but particularly with the 73gr eld. It just did not shoot well with N140.

Do not get me wrong, 75 BTHP is a good bullet. Good price, decent BC, weight and good price.
But they are indeed more sensitive to bore conditions and that can itself lead to consistency problems as the throat/barrel fouls.

But 75gr loses in everything to tangent ogive SMK and Scenar except price. Just alone the fact that no manufacturer makes match ammo with them says the fact that even they cannot get it running.

Nah. You may have a barrel that doesn't like them, but they are generally an easy bullet to work up a load for.

Personally I've found them no harder to work up loads for than a 77 SMK or any other similar bullet, and your claim about being picky about throat erosion and fouling has not been the case at all.

That 73 ELD is a completely different bullet with no relation at all except being from Hornady. It has definitely proven more difficult in my rifles. If you're using that as part of your basis for saying all that about the 75 BTHP, then you're all wrong about that part. Same goes if you're mixing in anectodes of the 75 Amax/ELD, again a totally different bullet that has a lower success rate for finding good loads in a lot of rifles.

You haven't even taken a lot of the advice offered you in this thread, and it sounds like your goal here is more to rant about that bullet than to actually find a good load. From what I can see, you've tried them in ONE barrel, with a very limited range of combinations, and concluded the bullet is at fault? That doesn't say anything very good about your logical deduction abilities, which are pretty critical for being any good at load development. Blame the barrel, or your primers, or powder, etc, at least as much as the bullet.

 

[Near miss]

I did test multiple different settings with N540.
Not a bad powder, but thankfully people here suggested trying other powders. For some reason N540 just did not work out.

The Molons load with N140 and cleaned barrel produced good results, the mean radius more than halved. 0.8moa 5 shot group from 300 with the N540 would have been impossible.

I have taken all the advice possible but I have my own goals and I try to also fullfill them. Mainly limiting primer and powder selection.

I already ran out of N140 so I will continue testing after receiving more of it. After that I can tell for sure and test how it groups from foiled barrel. I do assume that the N540 was incompatible and the dirty bore conditions were not the cause.


75gr is just more picky. Regarding the 73s, you however agree. But I want to remind you that bullet compability is not true or false variable, but rather linear. 75gr sits further out there, after the 77gr bullets but before 73s. They are secant too if you check them out and more similar to 73s than 77s.

 

[308pirate]

Well it won't hurt me but just because you lucked it out does not mean the they are harder than usual to get running.

I didn't "luck out". The Hornady 75 HPBT became almost as popular as the Sierra 77 MK as the do-all bullet for service rifle competition. If it was hard to tune for accuracy (and we're talking sub moa) it wouldn't have happened.

The Wylde and CLE chambers were (and probably still are) the two most popular in rifles built for the sport which provides more evidence that the bullet is pretty tolerant.

The collective experience of service rifle competitors (the pioneers of heavy bullet 223 loads) with this bullet > yours

 

[Molon]

But 75gr loses in everything to tangent ogive SMK and Scenar except price. Just alone the fact that no manufacturer makes match ammo with them says the fact that even they cannot get it running.

factory loads . . .



Hornady 223 Remington 75 grain Match

Hornady 223 Remington 75 grain TAP Precision

Hornady 223 Remington 75 grain Steel Match

Hornady 223 Remington TAP FPD

ASYM Precision 223 Remington 75 grain Tactical Match Grade

continued . . .

 

[Molon]

Black Hills 223 Remington 75 Grain Match HP Ammunition


Blue Box versus Red Box​

The difference between Black Hills’ red box and blue box ammunition lies primarily with the brass case. Red box ammunition is newly manufactured using virgin brass. Blue box ammunition is referred to as “remanufactured” because is uses once fired brass that has been resized. This enables Black Hills to sell the blue box ammunition at a reduced price compared to their red box ammunition.


Black Hills’ 75 grain Match HP (hollow point) ammunition is loaded with Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP Match bullet with a cannelure (commonly referred to as the “T1C”) and both the red box and blue box loads have a crimp at the case mouth. Both loads are charged with “ball powder.” The nominal OAL for the red box cartridges ran approximately 2.245” and for the blue box cartridges it was closer to 2.250”.

The brass cases used in the red box ammo have sealed primers and the headstamp of most lots of this load read “BHA 223 MATCH.” These virgin cases have a nominal length of 1.755”.


The brass cases used in the blue box load tend to be a mix of once fired Lake City and Winchester brass. The military primer crimps has been removed by the reaming method. The blue box loads do not have sealed primers.


Black Hills does not perform a “trim to length” operation on the resized cases used in the blue box ammunition. As a result, many of the cases are longer than the SAAMI recommended maximum length of 1.760”. Several of the cases that I measured had a length of 1.775”. This could potentially cause problems in a barrel with a minimum length chamber, though no malfunctions of any kind were experienced during the testing of this ammunition. (Using a Sinclair chamber length gauge, I determined the chambers of my Colt barrels have a length of 1.780”.)


Both loads were chronographed using four different length barrels. All of the Colt barrels used in testing have a NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist. The 24” Krieger barrel has a 5.56 Match chamber and has a twist rate of 1:7.7”. On their web-site, Black Hills advertises a muzzle velocity of 2,750 fps for these loads, but they do not state the barrel length associated with this velocity, though the industry standard calls for a 24” barrel.


Chronographing was conducted using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. The Oehler 35P chronograph is actually two chronographs in one package that takes two separate chronograph readings for each shot and then has its onboard computer analyze the data to determine if there is any statistically significant difference between the two readings. If there is a statistically significant difference in the readings, the chronograph “flags” the shot to let you know that the data is invalid. There was no invalid data flagged during this testing.


The velocity stated below is the muzzle velocity as calculated from the instrumental velocity using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program. The string of fire consisted of 10 rounds over the chronograph.


Each round was single-loaded and cycled into the chamber from a magazine fitted with a single-load follower. The bolt locked-back after each shot allowing the chamber to cool in between each shot. This technique was used to mitigate the possible influence of “chamber-soak” on velocity data. Each new shot was fired in a consistent manner after hitting the bolt release. Atmospheric conditions were monitored and recorded using a Kestrel 4000 Pocket Weather Tracker.



Atmospheric conditions

Average temperature- 80 degrees F

Humidity - 48%

Barometric pressure – 29.04

Elevation- 960 feet above sea level

While chronographing the Black Hills loads through the 24” Krieger barrel, I also chronographed three of Hornady’s SAAMI pressure, 75 grain loads that use the T1C bullet for comparison.

For additional comparison, I also fired the Black Hills loads side-by-side with some of the Hornady 75 grain SAAMI pressure loads from the 20” Colt A2 barrel.

100 yard Accuracy Evaluation of Black Hills 75 grain MHP


Red Box versus Blue Box​

As previously discussed in this thread, the primary difference between Black Hills' red box and blue box ammunition lies with the brass case. Red box ammunition uses virgin brass, while blue box ammunition uses once fired brass that has been resized.


The test-vehicle for this accuracy evaluation was a semi-automatic AR-15 with a 24” stainless-steel Kreiger VarMatch barrel, with a 1:7.7” twist, installed on a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver.


I conducted an accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the Black Hills 75 grain Match HP ammunition following my usual protocol. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any group-reduction techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots).


The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Also, a control group was fired from the test-rifle used in the evaluation using match-grade, hand-loaded ammunition; in order to demonstrate the capability of the barrel.



All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrel used in the evaluation was free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold Competition Series Scope which was adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shield was used. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe.



Control Groups


Prior to testing the Black Hills ammunition, I obtained three 10-shot groups of a control load consisting of hand-loaded Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings (at a distance of 100 yards of course.) Those three groups had extreme spreads of:

0.547”

0.57”

0.69”

for an average extreme spread of 0.602”. The three 10-shot groups were overlayed on each using RSI Shooting Lab to obtain a 30-shot composite group that had a mean radius of 0.19”.


Red Box


Following the same procedures used with the control load, three 10-shot groups of the Black Hills red box 75 grain MHP fired from 100 yards were obtained. Their extreme spreads measured:

0.96”

1.00”

1.04”

for an average extreme spread of 1.00”. As with the control load, the three 10-shot groups from the red box ammunition were over-layed on each other to obtain a 30-shot composite group with a mean radius of 0.32”.



Blue Box


In the same manner as above, three 10-shot groups of the blue box 75 grain MHP were obtained from 100 yards with extreme spreads of:

1.11”

1.16”

1.16”

for an average extreme spread of 1.14”. Those three 10-shot groups overlayed on each other had a mean radius of 0.37”. Here are the 30-shot composite groups side-by-side for comparison.

Lastly, for any Internet Commandos in our viewing audience, I fired a 3-shot group of the red box 75 grain MHP from 100 yards. That group measured 0.276”.

..

 

[Near miss]

I did not know about asym and black hills making 75gr ammo. And it shoots fine too.

I guess I was wrong. It does not erase my problems with the bullet but this certainly proves that they run pretty surely at that 2245 to 2250 COL when somebody knows what they are doing.

 

[secondofangle2]

3rd before last:

My Reloading Rules for Long Range Shooting

Just thought I'd toss this out there. I have repeated a lot of mistakes that I should have known from experience not to, so I made a list for myself to post over my bench. Some will get folks' feathers ruffled - they shouldn't, these are for me, if you don't like them, then by all means you do...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Near miss]

And BC

According to Litz, Hornady is 0.18, SMK 0.19 and Scenar .203

 

[Near miss]

That's his barrel. I shoot the Hornady BC and it's true in mine.

Just look at a 77 SMK and a 75 BTHP and tell yourself the SMK has a higher BC.

Thanks for confirming. It truly did strike odd to me since the bthp definitely looks sleeker.
Can't wait to test it more with the N140.

 

[ma smith]

That's his barrel. I shoot the Hornady BC and it's true in mine.

Just look at a 77 SMK and a 75 BTHP and tell yourself the SMK has a higher BC.

What max distance are you using the 75HPBT and getting consistent results?

 

[secondofangle2]

75 ELD-M rules them all

 

[Yondering]

75 ELD-M rules them all

For bc, sure. But there’s a lot of guns it just flat doesn’t work in (like anything with a 5.56 length magazine), and a lot of barrels it doesn’t shoot well in either.

 

[Near miss]

Here's a thought. I had a barrel that didn't like the 75's. The chamber was supposedly suited to the SMKs and it shot them okay. I sold it. I don't need or want a picky barrel. That barrel works for me. I'm not spending years of my adult life coddling an inanimate object.

How much are you spending on load development and alternative components? More than a barrel costs?

I don't know. I just heard that a store was getting huge stock of hornadys, all same lot so I thought they could be useful to make training ammo out of, maybe more. They are 32% cheaper than competition after all.

 

[Molon]

75 ELD-M rules them all

But can’t be seated to fit in the magazine for the OP’s semi-automatic rifle without the ogive of the bullet extending below the case-mouth.

....

 

[Doc68]

These bullets do in fact shoot really well. I use them for 400yds and closer for my 22BR. I shoot them just touching the lands and I have 1/4 MOA all day long. I know this is a different cartridge, but the bullet does shoot well.

Doc

 

[Near miss]

These bullets do in fact shoot really well. I use them for 400yds and closer for my 22BR. I shoot them just touching the lands and I have 1/4 MOA all day long. I know this is a different cartridge, but the bullet does shoot well.

Doc

I am quite sure the N140 load works for them. 0.8moa 300m group (wind was 6mph from 4:30) would have not been possible with my N540 loads.

Too bad my order was just delayed, VV is treating the home ground quite harshly. It might take ages but I am on the look for N140 coming to sale in second hand.

I am on the edge of ordering few more as it is a good bullet and my current barrel is probably anyways nearing its life, 12K already in. Going to take everything out it offers.
Nowadays you are always waiting for something to turn in to stock.. I guess I put the order in for 2K.

 

[Near miss]

I just shot the loads I had loaded initially that were loaded with 24.7gr N540 / Sako / 450 at 300m and they printed well. 2x 1moa 5 shot groups. I even shot them quite fast.

I think I have a problem with 100m shooting, I guess I need to dial zoom down. The bulk I shoot pretty relaxed but all my handloads are not doing as well as they should. At 300m I pretty much just blasted away and still arrived to those 1moa groups. Maybe 10-15 seconds per group.

I am handling around 1500 PMC cases and will check if those will run well. As I cannot find 45 degree head to my FA case prep center to remove the crimp. And anyways, better to use off the PMCs first.

I am confident I will find a load for 75gr that suits its premium blasting ammo purpose, probably even more.
Tbh it was wrong to ban pirate for stating the hornadys are easy to get to shoot.

 

[Near miss]

It seems the barrel cleaning was the job to do.
Last time for warm up I shot 3x 5 shot groups with geco 55gr at 300 also under 1moa. 4th group was 1.2moa. The windage was a bit hard to dial, .2 to .5, so 55grs really flew away with the wind so the total group would have probably been trash.

More 300m groups:
.9moa 1.59g / 24.5gr load, 5 shots.
1.5moa 1.58g / 24.4gr load, 4 shots .7moa. I shot # 4, was resetting position as I noticed 1 was still left and maybe shot it too quickly.

The wind was gusty from 4 o'clock, up to 10mph. Group was .5mil off from last time and almost 1 click up. I am using 1.5U and 0 windage for load testing to keep easy comparability and logging between groups.

The 1.58 and 1.59 loads were based on test of 24.1gr to 25.3gr below, I primarily wanted something close to my 300m scenar zero, with reasonable pressures. Almost all loads showed small bolt markings but it was barely visible even on the highest charge. I guess PMC heads are a bit softer than Sako and Geco, although they have more volume. Also this test was ran in too much hurry, I spent maybe 15 to 18 minutes at the range all in all.

I already loaded plenty of 1.585g / 24.45gr loads and will see how they perform. I do feel I should maybe try the 23.9 to 24.1 side, closer to Molon's recommendations, but let's see where this leads to.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Maybe I need to re read this thread but, why aren't you doing a normal load development series to find your load with whatever brass you are going to use? Seems like you are just guessing and trying to find one that happens to work well or something?

 

[Near miss]

Maybe I need to re read this thread but, why aren't you doing a normal load development series to find your load with whatever brass you are going to use? Seems like you are just guessing and trying to find one that happens to work well or something?

This started by doing proper load development but nothing worked. I did a control test against my scenar load each time. I then tested N140 along with cleaning my barrel and results got much better. I got the idea to clean my barrel after I got a control group flier with the scenars.

I tried Geco first but the decrimping is too much work manually and I am waiting for 45° chamfer head or decrimper to come in storage to install to my FA case prepping center.

The original test loads with Sako brass did not run well before cleaning but now they are doing better.

So I decided to use my PMC brass, 2K now totally prepped for priming.

Gotta say, the 15min 2-shot test was both abysmal and fun.
I do not mind doing more odd loading work if it's providing satisfactory results. At the moment the PMC / Ginex / 540 combo seems to be working so why not continue. I am kind of trying my luck here, I am happy with average of submoa / 1moa at 300m with this barren barrel so not going to stretch it. I have 300m right nearby but reservations to there are about once a week.

Next time if time allows I run the 75gr load against the 77gr scenars and see how they do.

So all in all, first absolutely nothing worked, now it seems good. The scenars clearly grouped better from the barrel longer than the 75s, but cannot confirm that by 100% until I reproduce that.
--------------15/12/2022--
Yesterday I hit the range again but the wind keeps on. I tried the basic load 24.45gr and first group got 0.8moa. The second got 1.3moa but I was too dumb and forgot to wipe the snow off, (retarded task because it will take some patches off, which are impossible to replace on damp target) and it ruined my POA. So it could have been better.

H75_1.585gN540_PMC_300m.mp4

MP4 File

1drv.ms

 

[Splicer64]

Reloading For The AR-15: Hornady 75 Grain BTHP

Hornady produces three different versions of their 75 grain open-tip-match bullet in 22 caliber (0.224”). For this article, we’ll be looking at the projectile that is colloquially referred to as the “T1”.

The T1 is available as a reloading component, with a product number of #2279 for the 100 count boxes. It’s also available in 600 and 4000 count boxes.

I use the Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet to load match-grade hand-loads for my semi-automatic AR-15s chambered in 5.56mm/223 Remington. According to Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets by Bryan Litz, the Hornady 75 grain BTHP has an average G1 ballistic coefficient of 0.356 and an average G7 ballistic coefficient of 0.183.

The lot of T1 projectiles used for this article have a nominal length of 0.988” and I load them to a nominal COAL of 2.245”. When fired from a Colt SOCOM barrel with a 5.56mm NATO chamber, this COAL will create a jump to the lands of 178 thousandths of an inch. When fired from a Larue Stealth barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber, this COAL will create a jump to the lands of 115 thousandths of an inch and when fired from a Krieger barrel with a 223 Remington chamber, this COAL will create a jump to the lands of 78 thousandths of an inch.

The jump to the lands figures stated above where obtained using a Sinclair bullet seating depth gauge and a Forster 223 Remington 1.4636” head-space gauge. These figures are contingent upon a variety of variables, such as the particular chamber reamer that was used for your barrel, the number of rounds that have been fired through your barrel when the measurement is obtained, the particular lot of bullets used and whether you use a virgin case, a fired case, a resized case or a head-space gauge to obtain this measurement.

WARNING!
Reloading is an inherently dangerous activity. The information provided here is for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be used for the actual loading of ammunition by the reader. No warranty, guarantee or assurance that these loads are safe is stated, suggested or implied nor should any be inferred. Usage of this information for the actual loading of ammunition may result in malfunctions, damage and destruction of property and grave injury or death to beings human in nature or otherwise. Don't even view this information in the presence of children or small animals.




For this hand-load of the Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet, I use virgin Lake City brass that has been weight-sorted, match-prepped and neck-sized. The cases are primed with Federal GM205M primers and charged with VihtaVuori N140 powder and as mentioned above, the T1 projectile is seated to a COAL of 2.245”. This process is conducted in a semi-progressive manner on a Dillon XL-650 press using a Pact Digital electronic powder dispenser and scale to dispense a powder charge of 24.1 grains of the VihtaVuori N140.

When chronographed from a 20” Colt A2 barrel, a 10-shot string of this hand-load fired over an Oehler 35P produced a muzzle velocity of 2638 FPS with a standard deviation of 4 FPS and a coefficient of variation of 0.15%. (The muzzle velocity was calculated from the instrumental velocity using Oehler Ballistic Explorer.) A 10-shot group fired from one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s, at distance of 100 yards using my bench-rest set-up, had an extreme spread of 0.526 MOA.

No canines were harmed during the testing of this ammunition.

....

I'm about to start working up a load with the 75BTHP, is there a way I could send you a PM. Thx!

 

[Near miss]

I am getting a new Lothar barrel in 2-4 weeks and have 1k scenars and 2k hornadys to try out. The current one is toast, went from 1.5moa to 2.5 or 3.5moa within maybe 400-800 rounds.

Going to start with Lapua brass and then develop a load with the PMC, Ginex and N540. I have N140 too.

 

[Molon]

I'm about to start working up a load with the 75BTHP, is there a way I could send you a PM. Thx!

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