• Frank's Lesson's Contest

    We want to see your skills! Post a video between now and November 1st showing what you've learned from Frank's lessons and 3 people will be selected to win a free shirt. Good luck everyone!

    Create a channel Learn more
  • Having trouble using the site?

    Contact support

Problems with brass

coulthard_west

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 14, 2008
1,147
3
42
new orleans la
I've got a savage 10fp and ever since I got my new Krieger barrel installed I've been having brass problems. I'm only getting about 4-5 reloads out of my Laura brass before they separate at the base. Would this be a head spacing issue or do you think there is another problem?
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems the consequence of a EXCESSIVE full resizing, due to a wrong setting of the fl die_ </div></div>

This.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was brass bought for this barrel and only has 4-5 reloads through it. Once they were shot I set the fl sizing die to only 2 thousandths under the chamber. And it still does it. </div></div>

How did you measure your F/L sized headspace?
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was brass bought for this barrel and only has 4-5 reloads through it. Once they were shot I set the fl sizing die to only 2 thousandths under the chamber. And it still does it. </div></div>

The only way you get a casehead separation is because of excessive headspace and excessive FL sizing. The Ejector & FP drives the case forward, the pressure builds in the case making the case grip the chamber walls. The casehead is pushed back to the boltface, stretching the case, ultimately resulting in casehead separation. You need to double check your headspace measurement and how much you're bumping the shoulder of your brass.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a case micrometer </div></div>

What do you mean by "case micrometer?" How do you know where you are setting the case shoulder when you F/L size? How do you know what your chamber's datum line measurement is? Do you have good calipers and a case comparator? You need at least a comparator to find where you should be setting your case shoulders back to when you F/L size. Do you have a club or do you know any experienced hand-loaders in your area? Find one and have them help you before you get hurt or hurt someone nearby.

HTH!
 
Re: Problems with brass

I borrowed the micrometer from an f class shooter who gives classes on reloading once a year. He taught us to use a case fire formed to our chamber, put it in the mic to find the the shoulder depth, and adjust the fl sizing die to 1-2 thousandths shorted than the chambers shoulder. As soon as my fte brake is in I've already notified my smith of the problem and he's gonna check my head space for me when I bring him the the rifle.
 
Re: Problems with brass

I had the same problem a couple years ago. I swore I had done everything right in sizing. I fiddled with my dies a little and stopped bumping the shoulders back quite as much and Voila! Problem solved. I literally could not see or feel a difference in a case length gage. And when I mic'd them, it was the difference between slipping between the jaws easily and binding just a little... Without changing the setting. FWIW...
 
Re: Problems with brass

Here's a not so quick but dirty way to tell if your die is sizing too much.

First make sure the lock ring is tight on the die. Slide ~0.005" feeler gauge between the lock ring and press (increasing headspace of the die). Resized cases should still chamber in your rifle. Fireform, resize again and chamber check. If the brass chambers easily, then you've been excessively sizing your brass. Go to a thicker feeler gauge until your fired, resized brass chambers with resistance. Once you've achieved this, loosen the lockring, slide out the feeler gauge and turndown the lockring while holding the die stationary. That should be very close to the headspace for YOUR chamber.

The best way is to use a case comparator but the above method will work.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I borrowed the micrometer from an f class shooter who gives classes on reloading once a year. He taught us to use a case fire formed to our chamber, put it in the mic to find the the shoulder depth, and adjust the fl sizing die to 1-2 thousandths shorted than the chambers shoulder. As soon as my fte brake is in I've already notified my smith of the problem and he's gonna check my head space for me when I bring him the the rifle. </div></div>

You have posted multiple problems. First your "F class shooter" is a poor reloading teacher for not teaching you the best way to know with certainty is to measure then measure again and then to <span style="font-weight: bold">write it down</span>. You cannot reliably make an assumption about where you are with the case shoulder datum line then guess at an adjustment and expect good repeatable results. You need to have good tools. These tools are not just the bits of hardware needed but also include basic knowledge of the loading process too.

More than likely based what you have posted you are creating a headspace problem by oversizing and pushing the case shoulder back too far which leads as you have found to very short case life and case failures. This can be dangerous.

The "F class shooter" who allegedly teaches reloading once a year aside the heart of the problem is that you are working blind with no precision tools in hand to measure the RESULTS of what you are doing to your cases when you are full length sizing.

But this is just the start you also need to beg borrow or steal and read cover to cover twice at least two good recently published books on reloading. If you can borrow some books on handloading you probably have found a resource with some experience that can help you. Don't be shy, ask as many stupid questions as the person will tolerate and be sure to supply beverages and snacks so they come back when you want more help.

Many of the old now classic reloading books make a lot of assumptions (like your F class shooter may have made) and do not teach use of common inexpensive reloading measurement tools widely available today. Don't buy the classics until you are successfully loading accurate ammo. A reloading manual from a powder or bullet maker does not count you need a book on the why and how to produce good reliable safe handloads. If you borrow reloading books take lots of notes and make drawings so you can develop an understanding of the process and have a guide you can refer to during the process of handloading. Most people develop a loading workflow based on their shooting needs type of press they use space etc. You will too over time as you gain experience on your loading bench and good notes will come in handy as you develop your own handloading workflow.

If you buy new books be sure to get a good look at them before you buy to make sure they include the use of headspace and bullet measurement tools. There are obviously many methods out there but these tools are relatively inexpensive and provide the user with very reliable information that will keep you out of trouble and help you to shrink your group sizes. Precision at 100 yards starts with high precision on your loading bench.

Stop guessing. You will need at least one pair of calipers and a 1" micrometer and if you are using bushing dies a ball micrometer. Buy at least one set of good calipers that can deliver 0.001" measurements with 0.0005" precision, look for this in the caliper's spec sheet. If it is not on the spec sheet or there is no spec sheet keep looking. I like direct read digital calipers for comparator use as you will know at a glance where you are while working at the press.

You will also need parts to assemble a headspace and bullet comparator. Strictly speaking you don't really need the anvil but it adds to repeatability in measurement. Buy the bullet comparator insert with the other stuff to save the usual $5 shipping charges on a $4 part. The bullet comparator insert will come in very handy very soon so buy it up front.

I cannot recommend the comparator kits with many extra inserts unless you happen to need a lot of the included inserts as it costs less to buy just what you need. For example .308Win, Hornady LnL comparator body #B2000 @ $17.00, LnL anvil #AB1 @ $14.00, LnL .30cal bullet insert #830@ $4.00, LnL headspace insert #D400 @ $8.00 for a total of about $45 give or take depending on vendor. Sinclair also makes similar tools to make similar measurements but they cost a bit more.

It is very unlikely your gunsmith will find anything wrong with the rifle chamber. More than likely he will use go-no-go gauges and find the chamber is within SAAMI specs. But it won't hurt and you will never know without guess what, measurement tools!

Hope this helps!
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It did and thanks. I still need to bring him the gun as I can't get the stuck ( seperated) case out of my chamber. </div></div>

Bummer. Hope the chamber is O.K. and you get your reloading going in the right direction. Keep us posted on your progress!
 
Re: Problems with brass

did u try the cleaning rod and patch threw the chamber and try to get whats left out? i have had only a couple of stuck cases and the cleaning rod and patch has always got out the rest of the stuck case
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bob munden 45lc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">did u try the cleaning rod and patch threw the chamber and try to get whats left out? i have had only a couple of stuck cases and the cleaning rod and patch has always got out the rest of the stuck case </div></div>


In 50 years of shooting and reloading I've never had a blown case. A patch will get the case out of the chamber?
 
Re: Problems with brass

Push a patch into the bore just ahead of the brass piece stuck in the chamber. Pour in a bit of molten cerrosafe, insure it goes past the end of the neck. Let it cool then tap it out with a brass rod. If its really and truly stuck this will usually do it. The heat from the cerrosafe will cause the brass to expand and then contract when it cools and that can break it loose. It will completely fill the portion of the case thats stuck and by going past the neck it will grab the case.

Frank
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The last time this happened he had to use a reamer and his lathe to get it out. </div></div>

I've reloaded for over 40 years and have never had a separated case.

You need to get someone knowledgeable to get you going in the right direction.

I would also guess all the brass you have already loaded is bad, you can't fix it.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A patch didn't work, neither did a brush, a mope, or my broke shell extractor. <span style="color: #FF0000">The last time this happened he had to use a reamer and his lathe to get it out.</span> </div></div>
Truly the scariest statement in this whole thread!
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A patch didn't work, neither did a brush, a mope, or my broke shell extractor. <span style="color: #FF0000">The last time this happened he had to use a reamer and his lathe to get it out.</span> </div></div>
Truly the scariest statement in this whole thread! </div></div>

It did sound scary but what do I know? Maybe this is SOP for this sort of problem but it seems like there would be a better way clear the broken case from the chamber. Running a reamer into the chamber sounds like it could damage the chamber or at least alter it in unintended ways. Could be part of the problem with headspace.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RTK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It probably just works like an easy out does:) </div></div>

Ah, could be.
 
Re: Problems with brass

You guys missed the point. It wasn't about the tool and method used. The scarey part is the fact that this is not the first time this happened!... And if I'm reading correctly, the same guy teaching him about reloading has helped fix the same problem twice now!

... Or maybe I've mis-read something.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys missed the point. It wasn't about the tool and method used. The scarey part is the fact that this is not the first time this happened!... And if I'm reading correctly, the same guy teaching him about reloading has helped fix the same problem twice now!

... Or maybe I've mis-read something. </div></div>

No I think the F class shooter is the reloading teacher and the gunsmith is an innocent party.
 
Re: Problems with brass

Ok update, I've got my rifle back and the head space was spot on. I'm still trying to figure out what happened but my fl sizing die started adding 6 thousandths neck tension instead of the 2-3. That's what was causing the the cases to go as they did. As far as them separating I'm just gonna have to give up on my lee collie die and get a better sizing die. Any thoughts?
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok update, I've got my rifle back and the head space was spot on. I'm still trying to figure out what happened but <span style="font-weight: bold">my fl sizing die</span> started adding 6 thousandths neck tension instead of the 2-3. That's what was causing the the cases to go as they did. As far as them separating I'm just gonna have to give up on my <span style="font-weight: bold">lee collie die</span> and get a better sizing die. Any thoughts? </div></div>

The Lee Collet Die is a Neck Size ONLY die. Unless you've grossly misadjusted it, it shouldn't touch the case shoulder.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok update, I've got my rifle back and the head space was spot on. I'm still trying to figure out what happened but my fl sizing die started adding 6 thousandths neck tension instead of the 2-3. That's what was causing the the cases to go as they did. As far as them separating I'm just gonna have to give up on my lee collie die and get a better sizing die. Any thoughts? </div></div>


How did you determine that your headspace was "spot on?" What did your chamber measure bolt face to shoulder datum line?

AFAIK there is no full length rifle sizing die that does not include a bushing that can add neck tension to a case. If you are using a bushing sizing die you have the wrong size bushing installed and possibly adjusted incorrectly. If they are conventional dies the dies are adjusted incorrectly or they are honed incorrectly. Do you know what brand and model dies are you using?

Are saying that a little bit of extra neck tension was causing your case failures? Seems unlikely to me. Many of the rifle rounds I used to handload for semi-auto military rifles used a very firm crimp for use with a bullet cannelure.

The Lee collet die is for case neck sizing only and does not bump the case shoulder. Many people use Lee collet dies and report they are getting good results. I think you may be confused about what die does what operation to the cases.

I have to ask you again, what dies are you using and in what order. What measurement tools are you using to verify your adjustments are doing what you need them to do? How are you adjusting your dies and how are you determining how far to bump your case shoulders and how are you confirming the shoulder datum line measurement? IMO this is still the most likely problem you are having.

As I posted previously you really need to get your hands on a Hornady comparator with the right inserts and a good steel caliper. Until you do this or get some hands on training you will probably continue to guess and will have the same problem. Sooner or later these failures will hurt someone or damage your equipment.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldfatguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Wilson case gauge wouldn't hurt, assuming your smith is correct in his evaluation of your headspace.

OFG </div></div>

This is a very good tool and it is foolproof but only if the gunsmith is correct and the chamber is well within SAAMI specs. But if money is an issue there are more versatile tools available.
 
Re: Problems with brass

My smith put a go-no go gauge in it and according to him it's with in specs. Now, the dies I'm using are the cheap lee die set. It came with a fl die, a neck sizing die, and a seating die. Now I'm not using the seating die, I'm using a rcbs seating die that has a micrometer adjustment knob. If my fl sizing die is the problem can you give me some in sight as to which ones would work better? Just for the record, my neck sizing die only resizes the first 1/4 of the neck and it only lowers it down 2-3 thousandths.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldfatguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Wilson case gauge wouldn't hurt, assuming your smith is correct in his evaluation of your headspace.

OFG</div></div>

I've used a case gauge before and that's how I got my current set up on my fl die now. Its only bumping the shoulder back .002. Before I was bumping it back a full 8-10. This was at least 2 years ago.
 
Re: Problems with brass

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: s.i.t.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My smith put a go-no go gauge in it and according to him it's with in specs. Now, the dies I'm using are the cheap lee die set. It came with a fl die, a neck sizing die, and a seating die. Now I'm not using the seating die, I'm using a rcbs seating die that has a micrometer adjustment knob. If my fl sizing die is the problem can you give me some in sight as to which ones would work better? Just for the record, my neck sizing die only resizes the first 1/4 of the neck and it only lowers it down 2-3 thousandths. </div></div>

Spend once cry once. But that ship has sailed so you are going to get the chance to cry twice.

IMO Redding and Forster dies are the best of the dies out there. I prefer the Redding dies and for you I suggest the Redding Type S F/L Match die set. You get a very good bushing die that also full length resizes with the Redding Competition seating die which has been tested and demonstrated to reduce runout. No other seating die in the testing reduced runout. You will need to buy three or four bushings to be sure that your case necks are giving the right neck tension.

You will still need to buy some measuring tools. Having good tools and better training would probably have allowed you to avoid the problems you have been having.