in my experience, no worse place to learn to shoot, let alone "to kill"(?), than "my" former army_
I dare supposing that it could be better, now_ (worse it's Impossible)_
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Prone- Slung and Biopod
- Thread starter 1SMALLJOHNSON
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in my experience, no worse place to learn to shoot, let alone "to kill"(?), than "my" former army_
I dare supposing that it could be better, now_ (worse it's Impossible)_
Great idea smalljohnson!
I agree with you that the proper use of a sling has almost fallen to the wayside today at the range.
When my father started to teach me, it was open sights,sling,prone. Sitting,kneeling,offhand,was next.
The bench was used just to sight in your gun.
I like to shoot with a scoped rifle just like everyone else here, But if I really want to test my marksmanship, Im old school
Why dont we have more shooters how use open sights??
Those are the groups that interest me!
I agree with you that the proper use of a sling has almost fallen to the wayside today at the range.
When my father started to teach me, it was open sights,sling,prone. Sitting,kneeling,offhand,was next.
The bench was used just to sight in your gun.
I like to shoot with a scoped rifle just like everyone else here, But if I really want to test my marksmanship, Im old school
Why dont we have more shooters how use open sights??
Those are the groups that interest me!
Not completely.
In the CMP Vintage Sniper Matches, you can either use sand bags or slings (not both) I found I shoot much better with the sling.
I replace the sling keepers on my Hunting rifles with 1 1/4 keepers and use the M1987 type sling. Works for me and doesn't get hung up in the brush like bipods.
I haven't shot off a bench in over 10 years, mostly prone off bipods for long range but on oaccasion, i put on the old coat and go shoot an across the course match with the old colt and a good sling.
It is amazing how stable it can be once in the proper position.
It is amazing how stable it can be once in the proper position.
Not the most experienced shooter here for sure.
But I started my "proffesional" shooting career learning proper technique and using a sling, shhoting a Anschutz 1907, 22LR at 100 yards at age 7.
Went on to European CSIM with a 200 STR, also shooting slinged up with irons.
These days i shoot mostly privately on my own range, though i use a bipod more, i still love shooting slinged up, can't really say it hurts accuracy much if i do my part, and it's easier to keep stable during recoil, if the position is proper.
A good sling is a great tool both for prone, and for positional shooting, so there's no excuse not to learn it if one is looking to improve one's markmanship in my opinion.
But I started my "proffesional" shooting career learning proper technique and using a sling, shhoting a Anschutz 1907, 22LR at 100 yards at age 7.
Went on to European CSIM with a 200 STR, also shooting slinged up with irons.
These days i shoot mostly privately on my own range, though i use a bipod more, i still love shooting slinged up, can't really say it hurts accuracy much if i do my part, and it's easier to keep stable during recoil, if the position is proper.
A good sling is a great tool both for prone, and for positional shooting, so there's no excuse not to learn it if one is looking to improve one's markmanship in my opinion.
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The 2 most useful positions in real world shooting are sitting with a sling, and off a 'low' tripod utilizing the sling on the actual tripod.
These aren't the 2 sexiest nor the 2 most accurate. However they are the 2 that would be used the most while shooting somewhere outside of a freshly mowed field and/or a bench.
Prone is fine and is good for when you shoot alot and want to get rounds down range, however even out west where I am and the land goes on all day, prone runs into a multitude of issues very quickly due to natural vegetation height and a landscape that likes to constantly incline/decline. The obvious answer is to find a high spot to shoot at, but that's a rookie answer/mistake and you have now silhouetted yourself, limited your egress options and incurred many other disadvantages.
If you learn to use a tripod in the low position or can shoot seated and slung, you can actually shoot while inside the vegetation.
Just something to think about since people here were interested in learning/using useful positions.
These aren't the 2 sexiest nor the 2 most accurate. However they are the 2 that would be used the most while shooting somewhere outside of a freshly mowed field and/or a bench.
Prone is fine and is good for when you shoot alot and want to get rounds down range, however even out west where I am and the land goes on all day, prone runs into a multitude of issues very quickly due to natural vegetation height and a landscape that likes to constantly incline/decline. The obvious answer is to find a high spot to shoot at, but that's a rookie answer/mistake and you have now silhouetted yourself, limited your egress options and incurred many other disadvantages.
If you learn to use a tripod in the low position or can shoot seated and slung, you can actually shoot while inside the vegetation.
Just something to think about since people here were interested in learning/using useful positions.
Agreed. I've been working on shooting sitting with just the sling and with my back up against something to simulate a real hunting shot. I'll likely have a tree to use in this situation and I can't begin to say how much this very thread introducing me to the sling has impacted my shooting. Unreal...I can't believe every hunter doesn't use one.
I think another issue now a days is that proper shooting positions tend to be less than comfortable. The younger generations don't appreciate being uncomfortable and aren't willing to deal with it enough to be rewarded with a high level of marksmanship.
The Marine Corps taught me to shoot with a loop sling, and it taught me that sometimes the best positions hurt. May not be the end-all-beat-all method but it's great at taking kids that have no clue how to shoot and getting them in the black.
That being said, I never stop learning and have a long way to go to be near where I want to be. I would love for the experts and SMEs to post pics, tips, and everything else in one place.
The Marine Corps taught me to shoot with a loop sling, and it taught me that sometimes the best positions hurt. May not be the end-all-beat-all method but it's great at taking kids that have no clue how to shoot and getting them in the black.
That being said, I never stop learning and have a long way to go to be near where I want to be. I would love for the experts and SMEs to post pics, tips, and everything else in one place.
Where is it written that a good position has to be uncomfortable. I use a sling in most of my rifle shooting because it iscomfortable. You can't relax if you're not comfortable, if you don't relax you end up muscling the rifle.
Relaxation is a critical part of the fundamentals of marksmanship. If you can't find a relaxed position then find a coach who will help you find one.
Relaxation is a critical part of the fundamentals of marksmanship. If you can't find a relaxed position then find a coach who will help you find one.
What happened with keeping this thread going and what ever happened to teaching how to use the sling properly? I really wanted to learn something. 1smalljohnson must be busy doing too many squaw chores. Everyone have a great new year.
Can someone post step-by-step pictures (or at least links that demonstrate) how to set up and use a sling for the various positions? I'll self-identify as a new shooter trying hard to learn all I can as fast as I can to shoot proficiently. I have to admit I left an awful lot of points on the table at my last match because I have no idea how to use a sling, and we were running the very positions - off-hand, kneeling, sitting and prone unsupported - discussed in this thread at distances from 200 to head shots at 600 yards.
If you post it, I promise I'll practice it and put it to good use in matches!
If you post it, I promise I'll practice it and put it to good use in matches!
The Marines Corps has an excellent marksmanship program. The discomfort was really during snapping in. I held a prone position for a long period of time with a proper position - arm and elbow directly under the rifle. The sling hold everything very tight and uncomfortable until the muscles stretch to accommodate. After a few days, I had developed bruises from shoulder to elbow.
Heck, even today, I can comfortably assume a proper Marine Corps slung prone position and shoot tight groups and still hit the black at 500 meters with iron sites. OP, if you want to learn, do you know any Marines in your area. They could teach you quite a bit.
Heck, even today, I can comfortably assume a proper Marine Corps slung prone position and shoot tight groups and still hit the black at 500 meters with iron sites. OP, if you want to learn, do you know any Marines in your area. They could teach you quite a bit.
I'm not buying this one bit:
You start out muscling the rifle you'll finish muscling the rifle.
So instead, you start out in a total relaxed position and you make the rifle comply to that position. You should never let the hammer fall unless you are in a total relaxed state.
I don't know how the Marines conduct rifle shooting, I do know how the Army does, and I also know the Army dominates The National Matches and the Inter-Service Matches as well as the International Sniper Competitions.
That Army has been pushing "relaxation" since the days of Captain Edward Crossman was Coaching and Running Marksmanship Programs after WWI.
If you don't know Crossman, google his resume, He's been around the shooting circuits quite a bit.
You take charge of the rifle, don't let the rifle take charge of you.
The position is entirely relaxed. Snapping in merely stretches muscles and training gets you into a very relaxed position. After firing and the rifle recoiling, your sites settle in exactly where they were. Again, I hit the black at 500 meters, iron sites. As I recall, my worst was 90% in the black at 500. Have you? If you have not done it, it's kind of hard to understand your thought process over those who have. The topic is Prone - Slung ... OP, speak with a Marine. It's easy to show.
Ummm in my journey toward my distinguished badge I shot a fair 600 yard score or two with a service rifle. Even had some pretty good score shooting 1000 yard service matches, but I'm not here for the dick measuring contest.
The topic as you said it shooting prone slung and like everyone else, I'm stating my opinion on the topic based on my training and experience.
The methods I've mentioned will be more profound in prone rapid fire or better yet firing the Infantry Trophy Match (Rattle Battle) where rapid fire requires one quickly recovers from recoil back to the NPA for the next shot WITHOUT having to muscle the rifle.
Granted that it was over ten years ago, but I went to a clinic put on by the USMC rifle team at Quantico when I first got into high power, and there was no talk of stretching muscles or being uncomfortable. Just the fundamentals of a supported position that allowed you can maintain a sight picture without muscle. Not "go to sleep on a soft pillow" comfortable, but "I could do that for 20 minutes and not hurt" comfortable. I doubt that is materially different than what the Army teaches, or what good civilian instructors teach. The old ways of "it's no good if it doesn't hurt" are long gone.
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The position and training I mentioned was purely relaxed. Not sure where this persistent muscling discussion came from. Did you shoot 600 with iron sights? I've only shot 500 meter with iron sights.
Could you enlighten us as to why Army comes out only a couple points ahead of the Marine teams?
Army teams can make a 20 year career of shooting as an MOS. Budgets and full-time career to hone shooting skills. Army uses the teams for recruiting too. You should be aware there is no MOS for the Marine teams. More than 3 years out of a Marine's MOS hurts promotions.
Marine shooting teams tend to hone combat skills too. Their mixtures for powder and capabilities eventually head into the fleet as well. Most folks don't know that. With budget constraints and the Marine Corps Op Tempo, they are hard pressed to keep and maintain the teams. One year they could be shooting competitively, the next they are operational in the mountains of Afghanistan. So, with those constraints, that they are only a few points behind full-time career Army teams speak volumes about even basically trained Marine Shooters. Sorry to hear about your dick. Just making a point.
I'd be happy to learn about Army techniques add to my skills. Hard to learn from folks that stay with the adage that their way is the only way an others are simple wrong. Shoots styles and skills have only improved over time by learning, collaborating and sharing new ways and not sticking with one certain style or solution.
Semper Fi
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Could you enlighten us as to why Army comes out only a couple points ahead of the Marine teams?
Army teams can make a 20 year career of shooting as an MOS. Budgets and full-time career to hone shooting skills. Army uses the teams for recruiting too. You should be aware there is no MOS for the Marine teams. More than 3 years out of a Marine's MOS hurts promotions.
Marine shooting teams tend to hone combat skills too. Their mixtures for powder and capabilities eventually head into the fleet as well. Most folks don't know that. With budget constraints and the Marine Corps Op Tempo, they are hard pressed to keep and maintain the teams. One year they could be shooting competitively, the next they are operational in the mountains of Afghanistan. So, with those constraints, that they are only a few points behind full-time career Army teams speak volumes about even basically trained Marine Shooters. Sorry to hear about your dick. Just making a point.
I'd be happy to learn about Army techniques add to my skills. Hard to learn from folks that stay with the adage that their way is the only way an others are simple wrong. Shoots styles and skills have only improved over time by learning, collaborating and sharing new ways and not sticking with one certain style or solution.
Semper Fi
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We'll said. I'd be no good at Tae KwonDo without substantially proving my flexibility with not so comfortable exercises, so those days don't appear to be so long gone. Cozy comfortably to that rifle with increased flexibility is beneficial to improving the position. At least for me with shooting and martial arts.
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Yes, it was service rifle, there is no scopes used in EIC matches. Servicer Rifles only. I did some any rifle any sight 1000 yard matches using a Model 70 300 WM using a Weaver T-10, but other then that about the only scopes I use in competition is the 2.5 X scopes on the M1903A4 I use in Vintage Sniper matches.
I'm not going to get into a Army vs. Marine pissing contest except to say the AMU is not a career, its an assignment. Those guys rotate like every one else in the Army. Most are combat Vets.
The Army doesn't have "Shooter" MOS's nor do they have a sniper MOS's.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
Prone- Slung and Biopod
Practical precision rifle shooting is no longer centered around shooting prone from a bi pod. At the Rifles Only Michigan class, half of the second day was spent learning the sling and positions other than prone, with another half day spent practicing those alternative positions before we put them to use.
And, on a side note, there's a world of difference between the discipline of "shooting" as it is known, understood, recognized and practiced the Big Army; and JSOC/SOCOM and SOTIC.
Practical precision rifle shooting is no longer centered around shooting prone from a bi pod. At the Rifles Only Michigan class, half of the second day was spent learning the sling and positions other than prone, with another half day spent practicing those alternative positions before we put them to use.
And, on a side note, there's a world of difference between the discipline of "shooting" as it is known, understood, recognized and practiced the Big Army; and JSOC/SOCOM and SOTIC.
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Appleseed teaches proper sling use. Best use of $60 and a weekend I can think of.
This shows the basics of the Web sling.
Rigging the Service Rifle Sling
This video shows the use of a leather 1907 sling at 2:15 but it is worth watching it all, and the other videos in the series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaAmdjQcM8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This shows the basics of the Web sling.
Rigging the Service Rifle Sling
This video shows the use of a leather 1907 sling at 2:15 but it is worth watching it all, and the other videos in the series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaAmdjQcM8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Got Me:
Didn't have that when I was in. 11B was infantry 3 was the grade (E-4 if I remember right) and P is parachutist, so the added another skill qualifier B4 for sniper. When did that happen?
I kind of been out of it since I retired in '92, was a "P" since '66, but gave up my 11B MOS for 11A00 in '78.
Kind of getting to be a "TAB" Army.
Just a side note from the boy scouts brigade - the USAF.
Despite the emergence of the black gun in service rifle competition and how records were established by it, there is still one record that has not been broken, the 1000 point Interservice individual. The record - 995-50X, shot by a Marine using a M14.
Despite the emergence of the black gun in service rifle competition and how records were established by it, there is still one record that has not been broken, the 1000 point Interservice individual. The record - 995-50X, shot by a Marine using a M14.
I was going to bring up this video.
About 7 years ago I was trying to figure out how to use a sling the correct way and came across this video. I used these techniques in our local positional matches and do very well with them.
Chucks IOTA goes very well with dry firing and practicing your technique. It lets you know if your pulling your shots.
Before I moved across the state I was able to attend one of NorCals steel matches it had a bit of every position imaginable and I had a blast.
My grandfather (WWII USMC) was very very big on relaxation, close eyes, breathe, open eyes, adjust as needed but remain relaxed. He never taught me sling use, but he did beat NEVER MUSCLE into my brain.
Closing the eyes is a remedial technique to understand the presence or absence of muscular relaxation. Although it works very well, it's problematic when shooting at any other than a static target. Closing eyes to discern relaxation may reveal that the shooter did not allow the rifle to point naturally upon shouldering it if, upon reopening eyes, the sight is off target. That's to say, if the shooter steers the rifle to the target while shouldering it to get a sight picture, instead of allowing the rifle to point where ever it wants to point, then there is no NPA and it becomes impossible to get it without closing eyes, since the brain does not want to abandon the sight picture. A better technique is to shoulder the rifle and align sights, without looking at the target, allowing the rifle to point where ever, then adjust NPA for the desired target/sight relationship.
When the shooter gets into the habit of closing eyes it consumes too much time for any sort of success with rapid or timed fire exercises, since essentially the shooter is getting a sight picture, abandoning it, and then re building the position to get a picture again. This eats up so much time there is no time to dress up the sight picture. More efficient, as earlier said, is to shoulder the rifle and relax into support, allowing the rifle to point where natural, and then adjust NPA to get a sight picture, which will not need to be abandoned.
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Army spends lots of money with their marksmanship unit. Marines don't. When I was in the Marines, we spent a week snapping in. Meaning positions held in a relaxed mode for hours. Mastered slings too. Bruises formed from mid-elbow to shoulder. That stretching and relaxation built up a solid position. Point of aim returned after recoil. Enables shooting tight groups even in rapid fire.
Just a comment regarding this. There is no mention of stretching at such a clinic because it is not going to help you at that moment in time. Stretching takes time/care. An instructor at one of those classes tells people they need to stretch the next scheduled class will have 50% less attendees because everyone tore muscles between during the break.
When you reach the range at PI or San Diego it immediately becomes clear why since arriving at either place they have you sitting cross legged the entire time.
Most of the bullshit at USMC boot camp, and at other service boot camps Im sure, is not without reason and purpose.
A prone sling supported position can be very comfortable, when the position has been built properly; however, properly building a prone sling supported may be difficult for a beginning shooter without some coaching. One thing for sure, if the sling supported position has not been built properly it will not be comfortable.
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I've been practicing my precision shooting with a SEAL recon rifle clone I put together (almost all the time in prone).
The problem I found with having a bipod off the end of the gun is that it throws the balance of the rifle when doing non precision work. I've pulled the bipod off at times and have shot off of a bag with good results but I'm a bit wary on keeping the bipod off since I won't always have a bag to rest the rifle on.
Is there a slinged prone position that can work with a modern sling like a Blue Force Gear VCAS which has no cuff?
The problem I found with having a bipod off the end of the gun is that it throws the balance of the rifle when doing non precision work. I've pulled the bipod off at times and have shot off of a bag with good results but I'm a bit wary on keeping the bipod off since I won't always have a bag to rest the rifle on.
Is there a slinged prone position that can work with a modern sling like a Blue Force Gear VCAS which has no cuff?
I get a kick out of all the dogma parroted here about "proper" sling use and then cite techniques using 100 year old technology.
Not by any means the latest technology, I've had great results with a TAB Quick Cuff and a strategically placed flush cup just in front of my hand on both my AX and A-5.
Our September monthly match will have zero stages where a bipod is used out to 300 yards and target will be the 6" head area of our paper target.
On field rifles, I find ching slings very fast and "good enough" for shooting game out to 300 yards.
I will say the palma guys are in a class by themselves and deserve universal respect for what they do.
Not by any means the latest technology, I've had great results with a TAB Quick Cuff and a strategically placed flush cup just in front of my hand on both my AX and A-5.
Our September monthly match will have zero stages where a bipod is used out to 300 yards and target will be the 6" head area of our paper target.
On field rifles, I find ching slings very fast and "good enough" for shooting game out to 300 yards.
I will say the palma guys are in a class by themselves and deserve universal respect for what they do.
An Infantryman, Staff Sergeant, with a Special Qualification Identifier of Parachutist, and an Additional Skill Identifier of Sniper.
But the MOS is still 11B.
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Since any combination of bone/artificial support can transfer the stability of the ground into the position, the combination that gets the best result would appear to be the most stable. Overall, a looped sling, match or Service Rifle type, for some, including myself, inspires the steadiest prone position, as well as the most comfortable. Perhaps, even more important, the sling supported position allows for great sensitivity of having properly adjusted NPA, while the bipod desensitizes recognition of having properly adjusted NPA. The sling also insures complete control of the rifle from the time the trigger is pulled to the time the bullet clears the bore. This assures consistent recoil resistance from shot to shot and minimum arc of movement. These benefits from proper use of the sling prevent much of what is attributed to shooter error.
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I've found that using a sling with the support (pack, etc.) is even more stable and repeatable. Adjust the sling so that your elbow in it is tight (don't lace your arm through or around the sling). Recoil is more manageable, and you may find your groups are tighter too, though you might experience a slight shift in POI depending on how tight you get.
forgive the ugliness
Well folks, if I can start posting some pictures, there's two things you notice: First, I'm not a Hollywood actor, and I don't look like one either. Second, it might be better to let the pictures do the talking instead of 1,000 words. Let's see where this goes... Oh, and if my sidekick wants to get involved, he's more than welcome.
Well folks, if I can start posting some pictures, there's two things you notice: First, I'm not a Hollywood actor, and I don't look like one either. Second, it might be better to let the pictures do the talking instead of 1,000 words. Let's see where this goes... Oh, and if my sidekick wants to get involved, he's more than welcome.
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This first picture is used NOT as a practical analysis, but rather to show that you start with the above position (roughly), then you simply add the rifle to it. In this below picture, you'll notice that the rifle is placed far too forward in the FORWARD hand, and as such, the butt does not touch the shoulder...
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You'll also notice too that we've not added the sling yet. It's important to understand the fundamentals of the rifle and the shooter, before adding the sling. The below picture shows the rifle slid back into the shoulder, while the forward forearm maintains roughly the same angle. This is important. The body's position remains the same, the forearm remains in the same location. It's just the rifle that has moved.
The location of the hand on the forearm of the rifle determines the pressure of the butt into the shoulder. THE SLING'S JOB IS NOT TO PULL THE RIFLE INTO THE SHOULDER, REGARDLESS OF THE FORWARD HAND POSITION. Please read that again.
Now, this is your first practical exercise: Get into the prone position, and get that forward forearm at somewhere between 25 and 35 degrees from the floor. Place the rifle into this position, and slide it back until you get solid contact into the shoulder. MAKE NOTE OF THE FORWARD HAND'S POSITION ON THE FOREARM OF THE RIFLE. (Piece of tape or some kind of mark works well). You have not yet introduced the sling. Do NOT do this exercise with the sling.
The location of the hand on the forearm of the rifle determines the pressure of the butt into the shoulder. THE SLING'S JOB IS NOT TO PULL THE RIFLE INTO THE SHOULDER, REGARDLESS OF THE FORWARD HAND POSITION. Please read that again.
Now, this is your first practical exercise: Get into the prone position, and get that forward forearm at somewhere between 25 and 35 degrees from the floor. Place the rifle into this position, and slide it back until you get solid contact into the shoulder. MAKE NOTE OF THE FORWARD HAND'S POSITION ON THE FOREARM OF THE RIFLE. (Piece of tape or some kind of mark works well). You have not yet introduced the sling. Do NOT do this exercise with the sling.
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This next picture shows what happens when you slide your hand out too far AND have too low of a forearm position. Note the position of the head and the eyes: Very un-natural, and strained. Not good. So, too low of a forearm position does tend to cause this awkward head position, as does too high of a forearm angle tend to cause too HIGH of a head position.
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The next series of pictures show the progression of donning the sling, of "wrapping the sling", and of attaining roughly a good prone position. Thousands of words could be used to describe the progression of steps, but I hope these pictures do a better job than words. Again, please forgive the mug.
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