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Protection dogs ?

A

alpha6164

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 3, 2008
973
30
Jacksonville, FL
A buddy of mine just bought a Level 3 fully trained protection Belagian Mal for $80k from Snake River k9. This dog is bad ass. Search and rescue, man tracking, full attack on mutiple suspects etc but at same time the dog is sweet as hell to people he knows.

I knew to get a fully trained dog would cost some coin but $80k??? Their Level 1 dog is $35k and goes up from there and their top level 4 is $100k. Does anyone have any experience with these outfits and if this is the usual customary costs of a protection dog?
 
I work in that industry, and those prices are positively ASSININE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOWEVER, since people obviously PAY that price (your buddy), then who can blame them.
 
alpha6164 said:
A buddy of mine just bought a Level 3 fully trained protection Belagian Mal for $80k from Snake River k9. This dog is bad ass. Search and rescue, man tracking, full attack on mutiple suspects etc but at same time the dog is sweet as hell to people he knows.

I knew to get a fully trained dog would cost some coin but $80k??? Their Level 1 dog is $35k and goes up from there and their top level 4 is $100k. Does anyone have any experience with these outfits and if this is the usual customary costs of a protection dog?
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Seems like a lot of money for something that one 45 ACP would put out of business for good.
 
bogeybrown said:
I work in that industry, and those prices are positively ASSININE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOWEVER, since people obviously PAY that price (your buddy), then who can blame them.
Click to expand...


Can you elaborate. Do you have any outfits you recommend that are not asinine lol. What should a fully trained protection dog cost?
 
well sir ,
the old saying there is a sucker born every minute applies here. there are thousands of these level dogs forsale, and no where near 80K. a schutzhund 3 dog is roughly 6000$, what i would like to see is, all the ''certifications'' this dog has? SAR is a very intensive and also specific type of training, man trailing or tracking is ? for what to track the thief that he didn't get?
There is a huge difference between a dog trained to do things on command, and 1 that will bite anyone when you are not around, for 80K do they cover your liability if the dog bites the ups guy, wifes friend or kid riding by on a bike? i'm not saying your friend didn't get a nice dog. but hell i'm going to germany next month, and could buy 20 dogs of that quality for that price. please feel free to pm me if your looking for this type of dog, without the price tag. also look at texomak-9.com, his prices are more inline with what it should be, dog can be trained to whatever you desire.
 
Sorry, I kind of had a Tourette's Syndrome moment as I was choking on that price and probably should have tempered my response. I'd prefer not to get into recommending a specific vendor; and as I said, that company obviously sells dogs to people, so what something is worth is what someone will pay for it (we see the same thing with guns/optics all the time).

To put prices into perspective, a fully trained dual purpose dog (patrol and detection) will cost an Agency (on average) from say $8-12K. Those dogs will track, search buildings, defend their handler, bite on command, cease pursuit after being released for a bite and return to the handler or guard the bad guy on command, they'll "escort" a bad guy or guard him while he's being patted down, etc. In addition to their ability to detect either the odor of explosives or narcotics with a level of reliability that's defensible in court (or reliable enough to save the lives of the people following that dog on a dismounted patrol in IED country).
You can also adopt one of those dogs that's returning from overseas through the Military Working Dog Adoption program.

"Prospect Dogs" brought over from proven kennels in Europe typically run in the low thousands, and prospect puppies from proven bloodlines can be had in the hundreds.

I've done some pretty cool things with dogs, and have seen others do some really amazing things with dogs, and not once have I EVER said, "wow, I'd pay $100k for that".

If you're serious about looking for a "protection dog", hit me up by PM and I'll try to pull some names together for you. I've been overseas for too long to know who's doing what, but I can get some recommendations for places to check out from some folks I keep up with.\

I didn't in any way mean to shit on your buddy's purchase, or on Snake River for that matter. On balance, I'd rather spend money on a dog than a woman.
 
I'm not sure a dog like that would be my choice for personal protection. Too much liability.
 
alpha6164 said:
A buddy of mine just bought a Level 3 fully trained protection Belagian Mal for $80k from Snake River k9. This dog is bad ass. Search and rescue, man tracking, full attack on mutiple suspects etc but at same time the dog is sweet as hell to people he knows.

I knew to get a fully trained dog would cost some coin but $80k??? Their Level 1 dog is $35k and goes up from there and their top level 4 is $100k. Does anyone have any experience with these outfits and if this is the usual customary costs of a protection dog?
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Have your buddy hit me up via PM. I have some ocean front property in Nebraska that he might be interested in.
 
Slapchop said:
Have your buddy hit me up via PM. I have some ocean front property in Nebraska that he might be interested in.
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Trust me this guys is not some rich dummy. He is one of the most recognized firearms trainer in the country. He spent a lot of time at Snake River K9 and chose this dog. Now I beeline from what he told me they gave him a "deal" cause the dog is 4yrs old has has quite a bit of experience. But I think it was still a $30k + dog. Would I spend $80k or hell even $30k on a dog ? No. But he must have seen something. He has two kids and the dog is super friendly around them and anyone else that does not pose a threat. He flies with him everywhere as a "service dog" and he just sits right in front of him in first class and doesn't move. I haven't seen a dog more obedient. On big flights he will tell the dog "find the gun" and the dog will walk right up to an Air Marshall (if there is one) and heel and my buddy will introduce himself and say hi and shows his own badge and the Marshall's are always like damn lol.

Anyways I am def interested in one but as long as it's $10k and under.
 
Wow, your buddy that paid that for a Mal is probably a sports star, actor, or in some other occupation where the pay is, let's face it, over priced. Or a lawyer that has won way too many big cases, wish that was me !!! I've looked into those places and their clientele of movie stars and pro athletes, neither of which knows the value of a dollar. That's why so many go broke after their careers, but that's another topic, sorry.

Any way, I have a Mal that I bought from PSD Kennels in Mississippi. Good dogs, good prices. But the ONLY reason I bought it from them and not the place I'll tell you about is because they had 1 ready, this other place didn't. This man, Ivan Bolobavic <sp, is a 2 time WORLD Champion and he's near you, he's in Tampa I think. Here's a link to his sight.

Malinois Ot Vitosha - Two Time World Champion Dogs


Just read your post,,,,,,I bet I know who he is.....
 
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When Osama Bin Laden was killed, the operators had a Mal with them on the mission. Mal's are now being used exclusively in some gov agencies, replacing the G.S.dog. The Mal is about 2/3 the size the G.S. dog, is faster and bites harder. Mal's are extremely intelligent and super athletic with skills you would have to see to believe. They also handle heat better it's been proven.
With all that said, they are NOT for everyone, they are very very intense with extremely high prey drive. Some breeders won't even sell them as a pet.
 
Hahaha, the Mal/GSD debate gets worse than Ford/Chevy or AI/Custom-action discussions.
 
I'm sure your friend got a super nice dog. Having said that, no dog is worth what he paid for it. The PPD business is rife with less than honest people, that rely on the uninformed to be impressed by "demonstration" of an attack. Some of our dogs below. Most are trained for IPO/SCH, some for Personal Protection. As far as what breed is better, as long as it's a Malinois, GSD, or Dutchie, you're good. Each have their strengths an weakness though'
4300cf1e-6a49-4b83-9e9c-5716104d6503_zps48e0ee7a.jpg

9f57b1b4a5f50ffa58ab84967850599f_zps13278b7b.jpg

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My GSD Argo below, purchased as a"green" dog at 8 months old for $3,000
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To add, I second what bogeybrown wrote.
 
bogeybrown said:
Hahaha, the Mal/GSD debate gets worse than Ford/Chevy or AI/Custom-action discussions.
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bogey,
I didn't mean any ill intent in my post towards g.s.dogs. I'd wanted a g.s.dog forever, I just didn't want the size. I also didn't mean to insinuate the Mal is any smarter than a g.s.dog, but the Mal is smaller and that's what I was after. I love g.s.dogs. Matter of fact, I love about any dog over 50 pounds. My apologies.
 
drafter said:
bogey,
I didn't mean any ill intent in my post towards g.s.dogs. I'd wanted a g.s.dog forever, I just didn't want the size. I also didn't mean to insinuate the Mal is any smarter than a g.s.dog, but the Mal is smaller and that's what I was after. I love g.s.dogs. Matter of fact, I love about any dog over 50 pounds. My apologies.
Click to expand...

Could I interest you in a well trained attack Pomeranian?
 
drafter said:
bogey,
I didn't mean any ill intent in my post towards g.s.dogs. I'd wanted a g.s.dog forever, I just didn't want the size. I also didn't mean to insinuate the Mal is any smarter than a g.s.dog, but the Mal is smaller and that's what I was after. I love g.s.dogs. Matter of fact, I love about any dog over 50 pounds. My apologies.
Click to expand...

Absolutely no offense taken, I really was laughing that this may turn into a Mal/GSD/Dutchie discussion which I try to avoid since I've had it so many times before. What I've come to believe is that our preference between the 3 breeds listed comes down much more to OUR personalities as trainers/handlers/owners. Some people's temperaments tend to "work" or "mesh" better with certain breeds, so we tend to have better results with that breed than the other guy who is equally convinced that HIS preference is the best one.

The Dutchies are sort of a coin flip, like Chocolate Labs. Years ago the Dutchies I saw tended to be a pretty nice compromise between the Mal and GSD. In the past few years most that I've worked with have been much closer to Mals (which makes sense considering how closely their breeding history is tied).

As for size, of the 12 dogs I'm running right now, the 2 biggest are Mals (both in the 90lb range). The breed was never meant to be that big, but the breeders have been screwing around with them in the same way that GSD breeders have done some harmful things over the years. I swear I've worked with some Mals that had Great Dane introduced along the way.

My avatar is a 55lb male out of Europe that had insane stamina and athleticism even into his "middle age" working in a country that SUCKS for any breed of dog. Most people thought he was a female at first glance until they saw his grandpa-balls hanging half-way to his knees ;)
 
That all makes perfect sense. I know breeders can be irresponsible alot of the time. My wife's Mal is a 57 lb. bitch, 18 months old. She's small, quick and needs to be handled firmly or she'll bully.
If I were to tell you the "story" on how we came to own this girl, you'd be amazed, but it could be "mistaken" as me being political, so I won't divulge. Suffice it to say, I ordered her the day after the last presidential election !!!
 
toebuster, 3k for a green dog i still consider high, he must have a hell of a pedigree. like i stated before, actually anyone looking, give me a pm, i will be looking at dogs in the cz, slovakia, hungary, belgium, germany and austria the end of febuary. i have plenty of contacts in europe, and shipping alone on a dog right now is 800-1500 usd, that being said i can bring a dog with me home to atlanta for around 200$, will be there testing dogs, and am looking at several nice litters. a puppy from europe, titled parents, the whole shebang whould be in the 1200 and under price range, depending on the euro exchange that day,

kenny
 
first dog, female jessie, ddr lines, 2000$ trained, 2nd dog is my older male, sch2 fh2, less than 3500$ usd.

kenny
 

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Import_gsd said:
toebuster, 3k for a green dog i still consider high, he must have a hell of a pedigree. like i stated before, actually anyone looking, give me a pm, i will be looking at dogs in the cz, slovakia, hungary, belgium, germany and austria the end of febuary. i have plenty of contacts in europe, and shipping alone on a dog right now is 800-1500 usd, that being said i can bring a dog with me home to atlanta for around 200$, will be there testing dogs, and am looking at several nice litters. a puppy from europe, titled parents, the whole shebang whould be in the 1200 and under price range, depending on the euro exchange that day,

kenny
Click to expand...

His pedigree: Wotan vom Haus Loschan

If you are familiar with the old school German bloodlines, you'll recognize the names, 2-4 generations back.

Good luck on your trip.
 
Wife and I are considering adding another Mal to our home. After hearing some of these prices and seeing how many trainers we have on sight here, I'll be prodding here for our next dog.
 
yep, i have offers now of titled dogs in that price range, there is also the problem of if you are not proficient in actively training the dog, like shooting, the dog can still do it, just not to the level when you recieved the dog. tracking is not hard to teach, and any dog with search drive can be taught to find, dope,guns, bullets, anything with a smell
 
Import_gsd said:
yep, i have offers now of titled dogs in that price range, there is also the problem of if you are not proficient in actively training the dog, like shooting, the dog can still do it, just not to the level when you recieved the dog. tracking is not hard to teach, and any dog with search drive can be taught to find, dope,guns, bullets, anything with a smell
Click to expand...



From your handle, do you train and sell these protection dogs or are they just your personal ones? And may i ask where you got them from
 
these are my personal dogs, i can train a dog, and usually just help friends and puppy owners. there really isn't a market here where i live for it. my male came from belgium, but was bred, and trained in germany. my female, Jessie, i 'm going to get in germany in febuary. i know quite a few people in europe and have bought quite a few dogs there. problem is finding honest sellers. i only know of a few! many people in the ''know'' on the database and such are brokers. that being said i hate brokers, they overcharge, sell sick dogs and ones with major problems. hence why these ''great'' dogs are forsale in the first place. anyone looking for a malinois can pm me, i know of a breeder/ seller in slovakia that has always represented dogs the way they are, and stand behind the dogs they sell ! they are fair priced and very good at assessing dogs
 
Here is a valid question i have that i would like the experts to chime in here. Isnt it true that just because you are Sch certified that you can actually be a protection dog? I was reading an article earlier from an "expert" in this matter and he was saying just because a dog will bite a man with a suit does not mean it will carry over to real life and many dogs certified wont even respond unless they see the sleeve or suit. So i dont bastardize what was said i am going to copy and paste here:



"The protection work for Schutzhund has little to do with police service work. The schutzhund bite work is a very precise routine that dogs can be "programmed" to work through. Granted, it takes a certain level of temperament and drive to be able to perform the routine. This drive level is so low on dogs that pass the schutzhund exam that it almost eliminates the value of a title to a breeder like myself. Frankly through proper training dogs can easily be schutzhund titled but these same dogs can not come close to passing a selection test for police work, much less be trained to do the work.

When a dog is titled in schutzhund the judge gives his opinion on what type of "COURAGE" the dog has displayed that day. A "PRONOUNCED" rating is the highest. The problem is that 90% of the schutzhund judges do not understand true aggression. They don't understand fight drive and they are not willing to admit it. Dog's are constantly given "pronounced" ratings when in fact they don't deserve it. This is evident by the number of schutzhund titled dogs that do not have the courage and hardness to do police service work. The problem is that the judges confuse "very active prey drive" in the bite work with true aggression.

Many dog vendors in this country intentionally mislead people and police agencies into believing that both Schutzhund and KNPV dogs are qualified to become police service dogs simply because they have obtained a Schutzhund or a KNPV title. Nothing is further from the truth. Both dog sports train a dog to bite a man. But it's possible to train dogs in either dog sport to bite strictly using the dogs prey drive. A dog must be able to work in his “defensive drive” and in “fight drive” to be a functional police service dog. "







I would like to see what you guys think of the above. Just because i have a SchII or III dog, if i get attacked on the street or someone breaks in to my house will that dog know what to do? Or training a dog for self/family protection is different ball of wax than the sport of Schutzhund.
 
$80k I just threw up in my brain a little bit! one dog is not much use any way as stated above a .45 will end that thing in short order.. that would be much harder to do if he had 5 or 6 of them

-a Caucasian Shepard dog is a beast quite un known here but the Russians love these dogs they are huge strong and smart. look them up I would be willing to bet a slightly trained Shepard would make short work of the 80k dog

-I personally had an alapaha blue blooded bull dog.. Specifically used for herding pigs the father of my dog was a champion and could pull a 300lb pig down in just a few seconds. I miss that dog so bad.
 
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bogeybrown,
i only recommended that specific vendor because i know him personally. i bought my first trained gsd from him. Bill, the owner of texoma k9 is by far 1 of the most honest people i know in the dog world. he will stand behind any dog he sells. offers free training to the new owner that is a few days, not a few hours in length. he will talk with you and find what you want/ need. he is a detective, former k9 handler and explains the liability of the dog from a legal stand point. on top of that, if you buy a dog, get there and do not like the dog, don't fit with the dog, whatever the case, he has others available to replace it with, so no waiting for a new dog or better fit. all dogs are already health checked, his wife is a vet tech, xrays are generally on hand. dogs have all been extensively trained and already tested.
i do not get anything from recommending him, i.e. kickbacks, no finders fee crap. and have actually sold him a couple of dogs. i do however want to help others, not trying to make anything, just trying to share some knowledge. i have learned alot reading here on the hide, and would like to contribute back.

best regards kenny
 
eli polite said:
$80k I just threw up in my WALLET a little bit! one dog is not much use any way as stated above a .45 will end that thing in short order.. that would be much harder to do if he had 5 or 6 of them

-a Caucasian Shepard dog is a beast quite un known here but the Russians love these dogs they are huge strong and smart. look them up I would be willing to bet a slightly trained Shepard would make short work of the 80k dog

-I personally had an alapaha blue blooded bull dog.. Specifically used for herding pigs the father of my dog was a champion and could pull a 300lb pig down in just a few seconds. I miss that dog so bad.
Click to expand...

Fixed it.
 
eli polite said:
these are Caucasian mountain shepherds





this is an Alapaha

Click to expand...

Are you sure that pair in the middle, the one with the guy in the red jumpsuit, didn't get crossbred with bears?
 
eli polite

there is some validity to what you read. not all sch titled dogs are capable of being a personal protection dog, that being said, a ppd maynot be capable of titling in schutzhund. Schutzhund was originally not a sport, it was in fact a test. this is no longer, as now it is a sport with like anything alot of money involved! i would not just buy a sch3 dog as a ppd, any dog being used for a specific task should be tested for that task. like my dog Linus, aka, rocko. is titled sch2, with the advanced Fh tracking titles, but also will bite on the suit, the sleeve, the hidden sleeve, or plain old flesh :D, but he has also been trained to do so. there is also what is known as bought titles, midnight trials, i've seen and heard almost everything in the ''dog world''. i have seen sch3 titled dogs that will not engage a helper, are nerve bags, but have a title. i have seen the same in expensive personal protection dogs. many dogs today no longer posess the agression he is talking about, this has been replaced by toy/ball/prey drive. there are also many terms to describe this, such as defense and fight drive.

There really is no simple way to explain dogs, traits, and such because of the difference in terminology between trainers, breeders and such. this is the reason i'm going to europe. i can test dogs personally, i can come to an understanding with a few select people i will deal with exclusively, and they will understand that i will return a dog that is not what i want or expect.

it's like sending 10k to GAP and say build me a cool gun, what they see as cool and you see as cool may or maynot be the same, or even close. on top of that ad a language barrier of understanding each others terminology.

kenny
 
yea a caucasian is a HUGE dog, bred for defense drives, and fighting and all that, i'll stick with my gsd, it doesn't eat as much, poop as much, and i'm proficient at training them what i want to do. i don't have the liability of many dogs as i don't want a vicious dog, rocko is well mannered, gets along with cats, plays ball with my 6 and 9 yr old girls, lets my 18 mo old use him as a pillow and climb on him. can go ANYWHERE, extremely well trained in obedience and protection, and is pretty.
 
Maggot said:
Seems like a lot of money for something that one 45 ACP would put out of business for good.
Click to expand...
My .45 works a lot better after I am out of bed and have pants on. A good dog can give you a few seconds to wake up and get your pants on. Umm, 85k that's crazy.
 
MtnCreek said:
It's a crazy amount of money! Good working breed GSD pups are ~$2000. ~$78,000 in training? Did they send him to Harvard?

BTW Maggot, I love my dogs, but taking that first rd of .45acp is in their job description. May be just enough time/warning to survive.
Click to expand...

Never thought of it that way, but good point. I never intended that a protection dog was not a good idea, just that $80K is a ridiculous amount.

diverdon said:
My .45 works a lot better after I am out of bed and have pants on. A good dog can give you a few seconds to wake up and get your pants on. Umm, 85k that's crazy.
Click to expand...

Fuck the pants, just start launching rounds.
 
alpha6164 said:
Trust me this guys is not some rich dummy. He is one of the most recognized firearms trainer in the country. He spent a lot of time at Snake River K9 and chose this dog. Now I beeline from what he told me they gave him a "deal" cause the dog is 4yrs old has has quite a bit of experience. But I think it was still a $30k + dog. Would I spend $80k or hell even $30k on a dog ? No. But he must have seen something. He has two kids and the dog is super friendly around them and anyone else that does not pose a threat. He flies with him everywhere as a "service dog" and he just sits right in front of him in first class and doesn't move. I haven't seen a dog more obedient. On big flights he will tell the dog "find the gun" and the dog will walk right up to an Air Marshall (if there is one) and heel and my buddy will introduce himself and say hi and shows his own badge and the Marshall's are always like damn lol.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty positive of who your speaking of.
He's posted a ton of pictures on his Face Book lately of his dog from Snake River with himself, gunned up,in the port of air sitting in chairs in lounges ,sitting in 1st class et. Good looking dog. Wasn't aware he dropped $80K on it.
 
Maggot said:
Never thought of it that way, but good point. I never intended that a protection dog was not a good idea, just that $80K is a ridiculous amount.



Fuck the pants, just start launching rounds.
Click to expand...

You know damn well you can't hit anything without your pants and tan combat boots on! When those boots go on it's game time! ;)


I bought my Pit bull for $400.00 as a puppy. He was the greatest dog I have ever had. We trained him religiously for 2 years and by the time we got done he was fully potty trained, trained to ride in a vehicle, trained to let himself out of a vehicle. We also trained him to stick with my wife during her two pregnancies. He never would leave her side and was extremely protective of our children. If a car or person approached the house he did not know he would circle the kids and sit in front of them. The moral of my story is, buy a dog as a puppy, do some research and train it yourself. I just saved you $78,000!
 
Baden K9 out of canada has turned out some bad as manhunters that I have seen make short work of some bad guys. Those are some tracking motherf***ers
 
more important that the puppy you buy, find a good trainer, 1 that is recommended by more than locals, is known for training puppies to full grown dogs. you can ruin a puppy from the best breeding in less than 10 seconds. always remember it's your dog, don't let them do anything your not comfortable with regardless of what they say.

kenny
 
For the most part I agree with Mr Frawley. Most police dogs can be cross trained to do Schutzhund (a sport), most Schutzhund dogs cannot do real police dog work. A Sch dog may or may not protect you, just like a pet, you just never know till tested. I'm not a big believer in turn key dogs, trained and handed over for money. You will bond and learn a whole lot more about your dog, and even yourself, when working with a competent trainer along side your dog.
 
Just get a dog that provides advanced warning and a .45.
Total price less than 2k.
 
i semi agree with what toebuster says. i think any dog is capable of what you want as long as you and your trainer are able to train the dog, with patience. i also believe a young started dog is far easier for most than starting with a puppy, that being said, it takes quite a bit of knowledge, and training to get a dog to the level most want, on top of that a puppy at 1 yrs old is not mature enough for real protection work, as he is still just a puppy regardless of size, strength and training. also like i stated before just because you spend whatever amount of money, that training needs to continue. this is simply not a 5 minutes a day thing, and there is no dry firing a dog. most trainers will agree on this, but not much else. trainers are mostly very opinionated and very biased to a certain type of dog.
i generally have titled dogs for breeding and enjoy training them in both schutzhund and other activities. all of my dogs will bite for real and have been tested. the schutzhund titles to me are worthless, it is a piece of paper, a score is also useless to me. i don't measure my johnson by what me and a dog can achieve on a field, with a set routine that it has been proven a dog that cost 25$ from the pound can achieve. like toebuster said it is very useful for bonding with the dog and learning about each other. that being said, i also like ringsport, psa type training, and have access to tools many don't.
I also like to dispell myth's like the '' i can whip a dogs a$$''. put a normal person in a bite suit without gauntlets and such and let them feel what force a malinois hits with on a long bite, the amount of pressure a dog bites with when attacking, and most change their mind.
i'll leave an open invitation to an members in the auburn alabama, or columbus ga , area to come train, see what is involved, learn alittle. drink a beer, have some fun. pm me if interested
any of the other ''dog people'' also feel free to pm me as i will be travelling this summer doing training. possibly in your neck of the wood and i'm always interested in shooting and talking dogs :D
have a good evening

Kenny
 
Maggot said:
Are you sure that pair in the middle, the one with the guy in the red jumpsuit, didn't get crossbred with bears?
Click to expand...



The funny thing is that is a common observation by people. They do look a lot like bears in the winter time when there coats are full. there K9 teeth can be as long as 4" they are massive dogs. Not common around here



all trimmed up




like most dog breads they can very in size some of these dogs get massive

by far my favorite dog is and was the alapaha smart strong fearless and intimidating for my neck of the woods the are more than adequate.. mine was all white with one blue eye
 
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