PRS Build

[Baron23]

And what are you referring to "They don't dial the barrels in" remark from another post?

Not sure I understand you...what other post about dialing in barrels?



And from the article you linked:

" An established fact is that at a given PF a heavier bullet going relatively slowly will produce less recoil (and muzzle rise) than a light bullet going faster.

Well yes, but not said is that a lighter bullet "going relatively slowly" will have even less actual recoil than a heavy bullet "going relatively slowly "

Again Newtonian physics but varying the speed isn't the point. If ALL else is held equal and only payload is varied, then heavier will produce more reaction force.

Have a great day, thanks for the link.

 

[GoatLD259]

Not sure I understand you...what other post about dialing in barrels?



And from the article you linked:

" An established fact is that at a given PF a heavier bullet going relatively slowly will produce less recoil (and muzzle rise) than a light bullet going faster.

Well yes, but not said is that a lighter bullet "going relatively slowly" will have even less actual recoil than a heavy bullet "going relatively slowly "

Again Newtonian physics but varying the speed isn't the point. If ALL else is held equal and only payload is varied, then heavier will produce more reaction force.

Have a great day, thanks for the link.

Your previous post it looks like you were trying to respond to a reply from a different post.

And I thank you for the advice. I was just going off of what I have heard in the past about pistols and recoil. From personal experience, I have shot better with 147 grain ammo than I have with 115 grain ammo.

And I forgot, I have not picked out a barrel for my build yet. Any recommendations? I have checked out Bartlein Barrels as one of the posts on this thread came from an associate with that company. But most likely do a 26" barrel.

Also, can anyone recommend some training courses to take? There are a ton out there.

Goat

 

[Rob01]

Can never go wrong with Bartlein. Excellent barrels. For up to the 147 grn bullets an 8 twist will work fine. 26" is a good all around length. Do you have a contour in mind? I would say get something in the M24/40 range as it will give weight but not too much. Heavy Palmas are popular also.

@bohem makes an excellent brake in the Jet4. Well worth a look. Run one on my Creedmoor and cuts recoil great.

Jet4 Muzzle Brake

Progressive ports, self timing, no gunsmithing, best in class recoil/rise reduction. At PVA we Engineer Repeatability. 100% Made in USA

patriotvalleyarms.com

As to your bipod choice, do you need to be that high for some reason? A 6-9" is usually a better all around choice.

 

[Femadog]

Not sure I understand you...what other post about dialing in barrels?



And from the article you linked:

" An established fact is that at a given PF a heavier bullet going relatively slowly will produce less recoil (and muzzle rise) than a light bullet going faster.

Well yes, but not said is that a lighter bullet "going relatively slowly" will have even less actual recoil than a heavy bullet "going relatively slowly "

Again Newtonian physics but varying the speed isn't the point. If ALL else is held equal and only payload is varied, then heavier will produce more reaction force.

Have a great day, thanks for the link.

Your previous post it looks like you were trying to respond to a reply from a different post.

And I forgot, I have not picked out a barrel for my build yet. Any recommendations? I have checked out Bartlein Barrels as one of the posts on this thread came from an associate with that company. But most likely do a 26" barrel.

Also, can anyone recommend some training courses to take? There are a ton out there.

Goat

There are a lot of good options for Impact pre-fit barrels. If you decide on a common 26” M24 contour, Hawk Hill, Stuteville, Bartlein are all top level options. I still favor the Area 419 brake FWIW.

 

[GoatLD259]

Can never go wrong with Bartlein. Excellent barrels. For up to the 147 grn bullets an 8 twist will work fine. 26" is a good all around length. Do you have a contour in mind? I would say get something in the M24/40 range as it will give weight but not too much. Heavy Palmas are popular also.

@bohem makes an excellent brake in the Jet4. Well worth a look. Run one on my Creedmoor and cuts recoil great.

Jet4 Muzzle Brake

Progressive ports, self timing, no gunsmithing, best in class recoil/rise reduction. At PVA we Engineer Repeatability. 100% Made in USA

patriotvalleyarms.com

As to your bipod choice, do you need to be that high for some reason? A 6-9" is usually a better all around choice.

I never thought of barrel contour. Is the differences in contours just weight and barrel shape? Is there any other benefits to the different ones?

Rifle Barrels – What The Pros Use

This post reviews the rifle barrels the best precision rifle shooters were using in 2014. The data i...

precisionrifleblog.com

Goat

 

[GoatLD259]

Muzzle Brakes: Recoil Reduction Results Summary

This post provides a comprehensive view of the muzzle brake recoil reduction data gathered on all 4 ...

precisionrifleblog.com

Here is a good article from the same source. Seems the Alamo 4 star is popular.

 

[Baron23]

Your previous post it looks like you were trying to respond to a reply from a different post.

Ah fuck...yeah, the internet...the modern day Tower of Babel! haha

I somehow screwed up and embedded two quotes and didn't see that. Sorry for the confusion....but I'm old....we do these things! haha

Is the differences in contours just weight and barrel shape? Is there any other benefits to the different ones?

Weight and hence balance and particularly thermal reaction. Heavier barrel will tend to tolerate heat better than a thinner one (distort less).

I have an Proof SS MTU 25" on my 6.5 CM in a J Allen chassis....cause, I bought the gun like this from somebody. If I had the chance for a do over, I believe would go 24" with a heavy Palma for some bit of weight reduction....but I'm not a big guy.

 

[Rob01]

Muzzle Brakes: Recoil Reduction Results Summary

This post provides a comprehensive view of the muzzle brake recoil reduction data gathered on all 4 ...

precisionrifleblog.com

Here is a good article from the same source. Seems the Alamo 4 star is popular.

look at the date on that test. A lot has happened in 5 years.

 

[Rob01]

I never thought of barrel contour. Is the differences in contours just weight and barrel shape? Is there any other benefits to the different ones?

Rifle Barrels – What The Pros Use

This post reviews the rifle barrels the best precision rifle shooters were using in 2014. The data i...

precisionrifleblog.com

Goat

Yes the weight and overall contour but also balance. M24/40 is a good middle of the road contour for weight and balance. The weight with the brake will help with recoil reduction.

Also any info on your bipod height choice?

 

[GoatLD259]

Yes the weight and overall contour but also balance. M24/40 is a good middle of the road contour for weight and balance. The weight with the brake will help with recoil reduction.

Also any info on your bipod height choice?

After some consideration, 6-9" will be just fine. However, Is there any benefit to having a bipod that is capable to turn a full 360? Such as this one,

Amazon.com : NICEFISH -Tilt 360-Degree Rotating V8 Bipod-Contraction Tactical Stretch Feet Stand Bipod Shooting Sticks for Hunting : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : NICEFISH -Tilt 360-Degree Rotating V8 Bipod-Contraction Tactical Stretch Feet Stand Bipod Shooting Sticks for Hunting : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

Goat

 

[GoatLD259]

As for contour on barrels, why do you say M24/M40? Are there two different types, or are these one in the same?

 

[Femadog]

Precision rifle blog also did a barrel article last year. Granted these are what the top shooters are using but it gives you an idea. M24/M40 are similar tapers. Advantage is that for most builds it puts the balance point just ahead of the magazine so it will balance on barricades and tripods if you shoot comps. The weight helps with recoil . Not the kind of gun you take hunting if you are walking a lot......

as mentioned above the brake article is 5 years old. lot different market now. Being able to time the brake without shims is very nice........

 

[Rob01]

As for contour on barrels, why do you say M24/M40? Are there two different types, or are these one in the same?

M24/40 is a designation some use but it’s basically the M24 contour.

On the bipod, no panning isn’t really needed but swivel to level the rifle is. The Harris 6-9” with swivel and botched legs is a good choice. It’s called the BRM-S I believe.

 

[bohem]

My Jet4 design has a port layout unlike pretty much anything else I've seen. The ports are not a constant angle, they vary as you move forward to spread the concussion and keep the flow of the gas attached. As flow de-energizes (expands) it cannot turn the same sharp angle as when it is highly energized. For the given size it is, the shapes involved provide optimal recoil reduction, better than anything I've tested in the 1" category and better than most of the 1-1/8" category.

The majority of rearward angled brakes put a lot of concussion on the shooter's face and head. This is detrimental to the visual acuity and other senses we have as humans. I've always made brakes, flat and angled baffle designs, where the shooter's face is in the shock shadow and does not put concussion onto them. This aids the shootability and your ability to watch impacts/trace/etc

The Jet4 is the next step forward in cutting recoil and mitigating concussion to not only the shooter but also the spotter and those immediately around the muzzle. So what?

There are a lot of reasons for the "so what" to be important. We as shooters tend to look only at the capabilities while we are shooting. These brakes are excellent, discussion finished right?

What about around you? The concussion, dust signature/kickup. I've shot at events where the dust signature on the ground stopped me from being able to see anything on my impacts after the 2nd round fired.

Furthermore, if you're concussing the spotter he/she is much more likely to miss that edge hit where you swear you hit it but the guy says no and you don't get the points.

Finally, brakes are bad for hearing. Even with ear pro on we are still at risk of long term damage. A study was done about 15-17 years ago by a university on behalf of a suppressor company. Turns out that "ear safe" on a suppressor is a farce. A suppressor is good as 1 layer of hearing protection and the study concluded that when firing a centerfire rifle we should be wearing 2 layers. Adding a brake makes it louder, and putting concussion across your head/shoulders is substantially detrimental to the internal workings of the ear.

So we as shooters should be looking for not only a brake that cuts recoil, we should be looking for one that doesn't concuss the brain pan of the user and everyone around them. Plus, when competitions are concerned, the extra 1 hit in a match can be a big deal for finishes. One well known, highly ranked PRS shooter told me that in 2018 he needed 5 more hits all season to have won the PRS Championship. 5 hits...

In a sport where we strive for the 3% gain on bullets, new powders for an extra 50fps, draconian reloading practices on very expensive equipment to get ES's below 10 and SD's towards 0... using a brake that improves not only your visual acuity but also the guy on glass who's scoring for you is a no brainer.

 

[OopsWetWedgie]

Integrated recoil lug on the action makes life a bit easier when installing barrels. Less parts = less hassle

 

[Krow0326]

I was looking at glass to get into PRS but I just read an article by a Ryan Hey (guess he knows what he is doing?) and he said Mil scopes only? I was thinking MOA because, ya know...'Merica and feet and yards. Is this true, do I need to get a mil reticle?

 

[Rob01]

I was looking at glass to get into PRS but I just read an article by a Ryan Hey (guess he knows what he is doing?) and he said Mil scopes only? I was thinking MOA because, ya know...'Merica and feet and yards. Is this true, do I need to get a mil reticle?

First, feet and yards have nothing to do with moa.

You can use either as long as you know how to run them. Mils are used more often so speaking to other shooters for wind data or corrections then mils will be easier to use as you are speaking the same language. But as I said either will work as long as you know how to use it.

 

[Krow0326]

First, feet and yards have nothing to do with moa.

You can use either as long as you know how to run them. Mils are used more often so speaking to other shooters for wind data or corrections then mils will be easier to use as you are speaking the same language. But as I said either will work as long as you know how to use it.

Fair point...Ive just found it to be more math and annoying in the past. Thanks though.

 

[Rob01]

Fair point...Ive just found it to be more math and annoying in the past. Thanks though.

If you are doing math from any linear to angular then you are doing something wrong. Linear is not needed except if ranging and knowing the size of the target. And range to target of course lol.

Run data, dial or hold it, if you miss use the reticle as a ruler for the correction, dial or hold the correction and make the hit. No linear needed.

 

[Krow0326]

If you are doing math from any linear to angular then you are doing something wrong. Linear is not needed except if ranging and knowing the size of the target. And range to target of course lol.

Run data, dial or hold it, if you miss use the reticle as a ruler for the correction, dial or hold the correction and make the hit. No linear needed.

Thats what I've been doing. A lot of private competitions where target was unknown distance out to 1500. But now learning mils, which makes sense if its everyones language there...is gonna be a drill for me. Also changes up the scope I was looking to get. Was gonna get March but now maybe downgrade back to NF? My brain right now...

 

[Rob01]

Thats what I've been doing. A lot of private competitions where target was unknown distance out to 1500. But now learning mils, which makes sense if its everyones language there...is gonna be a drill for me. Also changes up the scope I was looking to get. Was gonna get March but now maybe downgrade back to NF? My brain right now...

No difference than what you were doing. Just a different number to dial or hold. It’s that simple. Don’t try and over complicate it.

And I wouldn’t get a March anyways. Better options for this sport.

 

[Krow0326]

No difference than what you were doing. Just a different number to dial or hold. It’s that simple. Don’t try and over complicate it.

And I wouldn’t get a March anyways. Better options for this sport.

Alright. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really like March cause its clean the magnification was real nice as well and of course the turrets were a dream for me.

 

[Rob01]

Alright. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really like March cause its clean the magnification was real nice as well and of course the turrets were a dream for me.

You should look at what the shooters are using in PRS before buying. They list them on their site. Here’s a shot.

 

[Krow0326]

You should look at what the shooters are using in PRS before buying. They list them on their site. Here’s a shot.

View attachment 7470317

Thank you so much. In PRS and NRL is the range to target always known?

 

[Rob01]

Most of the time it is.

 

[Krow0326]

Most of the time it is.

Well Sir Rob...Im gonna grab a NF with Horus. Still gonna grab a march for LR or ELR but looking into the ranging and wind calls is blowing my brain housing group into shreds. More than likely I am over thinking it but...gotta learn. Thank you so much for your time.

 

[Newbie2020]

You will not regret getting the NF. Amazing glass quality and functionality and durability.

 

[Rob01]

Well Sir Rob...Im gonna grab a NF with Horus. Still gonna grab a march for LR or ELR but looking into the ranging and wind calls is blowing my brain housing group into shreds. More than likely I am over thinking it but...gotta learn. Thank you so much for your time.

Another thing to think about is not many use Horus reticles either used in matches. Some do but not many. They have a lot of marks but are busier than needed for matches. If getting a NF the Mil XT would be a good choice for a PRS reticle. Simpler Christmas tree reticles like it are a better option. They also save you money as you don’t have to pay the Horus licensing fee.

Don’t worry as much about ranging with the reticle as it’s not used that often. Wind calls are the most important thing to worry about.

Also look long and hard before buying a March. Not sure why you want one so bad but I think the more you look into optics you will find other options.

 

[Newbie2020]

Damn licensing fee....

I have the horus H59 and it’s more grid than a guy needs.

If @Rob01 says it, book it.

 

[Newbie2020]

Damn licensing fee....

I have the horus H59 and it’s more grid than a guy needs.

If @Rob01 says it, book it.

 

[spife7980]

I was always against the Horus grid theoretically but when I was shooting a guys rifle just messing around it wasn’t until I was done actually shooting the kyl rack and chatting that I went “wait, what reticle was that?”
I wasn’t nearly as bothered by the Horus as I thought I would be. Lots of it’s fine enough that it sort of disappears and I really only focus on the middle anyways.

So I wouldn’t buy a Horus model because I didn’t notice it or appreciate it over anything else and it costs the licensing fee extra. Juice isn’t worth the squeeze for me.

 

[Rob01]

Damn licensing fee....

I have the horus H59 and it’s more grid than a guy needs.

If @Rob01 says it, book it.

I, like anyone, don't know everything but having done it as long as I have and watched the changes over the years and what works and doesn't it's a pretty easy bit of advice to give. More used the Tremor3 in the NF before as they didn't really offer a basic Christmas tree but now that they offer the Mil XT I bet you see more going away from it.

 

[NewsShooter]

Im in the same boat as OP. I went with a vortex gen 2 FWIW. Liberty optics has some amazing deals on them. Debating If Im going to burn out my tikka in 6.5 or get a custom gun. From what im reading 6.5 creed isnt a big difference from 6mm. But its also fishy that no one is really running the 6.5 competitively right now.

IMO, shoot out the 6.5, if you're new there's lots to learn and the 6mm won't make that much difference if you're still figuring things out. The guys sh0oting competitively are shooting 6mm's because they fast and flat, but those guys will beat most of us with a slow .308. But you can build a 20+ lb 6mm that doesn't move when you shoot it too. Learn the fundamentals of building a good position efficiently, being smooth while moving, how to use your scope reticle to engage multiple targets at different distances without dialing. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, learn to read the wind. Until you have a couple thousands rounds in windy conditions you'll still be guessing a lot, even with that kestrel in your hand.

I've shot a fair amount of the american gunner after I picked up a bunch that was on sale for less than I could buy the brass. It's pretty accurate, a little slower in my rifles. The Eld match ammo is more accurate and about 50fps faster for me. I use Area 419 and lil bastard brakes, I like being able to remove it easily for cleaning. The best buy on a brake is from muzzle brakes and more, they work well and are a little cheaper than others.

 

[Newbie2020]

I, like anyone, don't know everything but having done it as long as I have and watched the changes over the years and what works and doesn't it's a pretty easy bit of advice to give. More used the Tremor3 in the NF before as they didn't really offer a basic Christmas tree but now that they offer the Mil XT I bet you see more going away from it.

Us noobs appreciate the “been there done that” advice. Priceless.

 

[Krow0326]

Im sorry for bringing this back but Im still raising a brow to the mils. Other than everyone uses it...is there another reason? Im gonna do it, I dont want to be the kid on the side eating crayons but I am curious as to why. Yes I am very pro MOA because its been easier for me to do range, wind and adjustments and its finer if I need to move just a skosh. Granted I am used to everything unknown. Just there is the target you have such and such time for so many rounds and go. Or you have a certain amount to time once on pad to find target, put so many rounds down range....and go. Learning a new ballistic and glass...gonna be brutal.
As for me going Horus...if I am buying new glass I am going to use it and looks like it can help in a pinch at quick ranging. If I can get mils down that is.
As for NF...they can take a beating but their glass has fallen. In my opinion anyway. Used a friends March for a competition and hot dang it was gorgeous. Which is why I was leaning that way but for these comps...looks like mils is the volume.

 

[Rob01]

Im sorry for bringing this back but Im still raising a brow to the mils. Other than everyone uses it...is there another reason? Im gonna do it, I dont want to be the kid on the side eating crayons but I am curious as to why. Yes I am very pro MOA because its been easier for me to do range, wind and adjustments and its finer if I need to move just a skosh. Granted I am used to everything unknown. Just there is the target you have such and such time for so many rounds and go. Or you have a certain amount to time once on pad to find target, put so many rounds down range....and go. Learning a new ballistic and glass...gonna be brutal.
As for me going Horus...if I am buying new glass I am going to use it and looks like it can help in a pinch at quick ranging. If I can get mils down that is.
As for NF...they can take a beating but their glass has fallen. In my opinion anyway. Used a friends March for a competition and hot dang it was gorgeous. Which is why I was leaning that way but for these comps...looks like mils is the volume.

First moa is not finer in use. 1/4 moa is 2.6” at 1000 yards and .1 mil is 3.6”. A 1” difference which you will not shoot the difference of. It’s a wisp of wind or a few FPS in velocity. So forget that right off the bat.

If you like moa then use it. Some do. You might just have to do a little conversion if you get a wind call from another shooter but that’s easy enough. Mils is nothing more to learn. Just a different angular measurement. Turn your ballistic program to mils and use those numbers to dial or hold. Simple. If you are shooting PRS matches the chance of UKD is very rare so not something to worry about but use a mildot master and it’s fast and easy. Been doing it foryears on ukd.

As for the Horus, I would think about that again and look at the Mil XT instead if going NF.

 

[spife7980]

Im sorry for bringing this back but Im still raising a brow to the mils. Other than everyone uses it...is there another reason? Im gonna do it, I dont want to be the kid on the side eating crayons

As an MOA shooter you already are the crayon eater.

Mils is the same thing only simpler.

 

[Newbie2020]

...If @Rob01 says it, book it Danno...he’s been there done that

 

[Rob01]

LOL Well I am far from the Stephen Hawking of rifle shooting but having used moa/mil, moa/moa and mil/mil scopes over the years in matches I can speak from the experience of using them all in matches. No to the first LOL but the last two will do the job the same if the shooter is up to it.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I personally like to use the bc method to call wind. I find it much more intuitive with mils. That is the only really big advantage I see. I do find the smaller numbers a bit easier to process for dialing elevation. It is not enough to matter really. I have run both and the simplicity of the bc method with mils and the ability to communicate with other shooters are really the only big advantages I see to mils. That said, I will not buy another moa scope.

 

[Newbie2020]

Noob hijack alert: what’s the “bc method” for calling wind?

 

[NewsShooter]

Tenths are easier than quarters to me, but none of that matters. The reticle and the turrets match, you have a ruler in your scope that you're using to measure. Doesn't matter what they are called, call them quarks, they're small and they match what you see in the reticle. You can't measure how far you're impact was different from you're impact at 600 yards away unless you walk over or use the ruler in your scope. You were off 5 quarks low, look in the scope and you see the difference, dial the 5 quark difference shoot and hit where you're aiming. It's pretty simple, if you're going to shoot matches it's easier if you're using mils as most will be talking elevation and wind holds in mils. Math is hard, you can figure it out in your head for the conversion to MOA but why make it difficult on yourself. Lastly, reticles are personal, I find the Horus way too cluttered, Mil XT is better for me, but my favorite is the Cronus APRS2 reticle.

 

[MakeSawdust]

Episode 70- where do you get initial wind hold?

In this episode, they start off with a .5mil wind hold for 5mph at 500yards. Since it is caliber - specific, they use another caliber as an example at 39:15 in the podcast. That wind hold is 0.4 (for the 6br) - How did they get the number 0.4?

www.snipershide.com

Read the thread and listen to the podcast. If you don't have it after that there are some other threads on here discussing it. I haven't written down a single wind call on a stage since learning this method. If you can get your mind around it and practice doing it quickly, it is dynamite.

 

[Newbie2020]

This is sooooo cool! Thank you!!! I ran it through my 4DOF using trued mv and bc from my actual range data and the “bc method” matched 4DOF perfectly all the way out to 1,000 yds!

 

[Krow0326]

Another thing to think about is not many use Horus reticles either used in matches. Some do but not many. They have a lot of marks but are busier than needed for matches. If getting a NF the Mil XT would be a good choice for a PRS reticle. Simpler Christmas tree reticles like it are a better option. They also save you money as you don’t have to pay the Horus licensing fee.

Don’t worry as much about ranging with the reticle as it’s not used that often. Wind calls are the most important thing to worry about.

Also look long and hard before buying a March. Not sure why you want one so bad but I think the more you look into optics you will find other options.

Well Sir. I went and spent the day shooting with the XT and the Horus. Holy wow that Horus is a lot. I mean great if you like it, but hot damn. Once you understand the massive change in counting then its pretty cool but yes...the XT is awesome.

As for March. I shot with one a couple times and I loved the glass, love the mounting system and the turrets were BEAUTIFUL to adjust. Also, the magnification was pretty cool. Was weird but odd looking at a target 1000 down range and it looking like it was 100.

 

[6mmSandman]

As another newer shooter I would recommend 6mm creedmoor over 6.5. Ammo is equally as available, is less effected by wind and has less recoil. If you are wanting factory ammo to start and thinking about reloading later, if you shoot berger 109 hybrid factory ammo it uses lapua brass. Saving your brass saves you almost $1 a piece when reloading and you have brass that’s good for 15+ firings.

I just built something similar to what you’re talking about rifle wise

mdt acc
Big horn origin action
Triggertech diamond
HLR 6 creed prefit
Apa lil bastard brake

glass wise, look around used, I found a bushnell DMR II PRO for $1000 and it had been great!

shooting next to a buddy who was shooting 6.5 creed this year, there is zero reason to shoot it over 6mm in my opinion. He ended up rebarreling to 6mm creedmoor at the end of the season. His response “this is like cheating”

take that for what it’s worth

 

[Newbie2020]

As another newer shooter I would recommend 6mm creedmoor over 6.5. Ammo is equally as available, is less effected by wind and has less recoil. If you are wanting factory ammo to start and thinking about reloading later, if you shoot berger 109 hybrid factory ammo it uses lapua brass. Saving your brass saves you almost $1 a piece when reloading and you have brass that’s good for 15+ firings.

100% agree. There’s more 6.5cm around me than 6cm, but Prime has a nice 6cm load with quality brass to reload. I have a 6cm Rem700 and a 6.5cm Seekins and I much prefer shooting the 6.

 

[Rob01]

Nothing wrong with the 6mm creed but it does not have as much ammo available as the 6.5.

 

[6mmSandman]

Nothing wrong with the 6mm creed but it does not have as much ammo available as the 6.5.

I guess ordering my ammo online makes for a false sense of availability. In store wise, it’s typically not hard to find but definitely more 6.5

 

[Daleteam6]

6.5 is damn near impossible to find in store or online right now. Ask me how I know