PVS-27 Boresight Error

falcom

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I have an OSTI PVS-27 with quit a bit of vertical boresight error-About 10 MOA.
Does anyone have experience with FLIR servicing these scopes or have any insight?
Thanks

Dave

PS I do optical repair but I am not about to dig into a clip on without a little information.
 

LibertyArms

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We have had about 12 come through recently. IN testing them ive seen a 6 moa shift with 2-3 moa the norm. FLIR has not been much help in parts or service, but you can give them a try. I was told they where phasing out the civi NV stuff ? weather thats true or not youll need to get to the North Ballerica division as thats where the MUMS are done. Is your shift consistent from on and off ? I have found that even the 6moa shift was repeatable so worst case youll know your offset and should be ok even though we would like to see alot better. Pm me and ill send you the contact info for the lady ive spoke with if you want.
 

The King

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I have seen 7 moa or more. But it was repeatable so you just dial it out.

We teach all of our shooters to baseline their optic and dial out the night shooting variance.

Usually it’s 1.5-3.5 moa. So what’s the difference in dialing 6? Not much.
 

falcom

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Just got a quote back from FLIR to fix my scopes boresight error- 6 hours labor- $1250.
2 week turnaround.
 

MarinePMI

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$200/hr for a senior tech doesn't sound too much out of the realm of reality...
 

MarinePMI

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Well 30 bucks an hour direct labor if it's a senior tech and like 20 if they have one of the new guys do it lol and 170-180 bucks of overhead
Admittedly, I don't know FLIR's wrap rate. What I do know is many other defense contractor's wrap rates. So I stand by my comment that it seems within the bounds of reasonable. Troubleshooting a damaged/broken product is not something you delegate to a new guy. Figure about 30-40% is actual pay to the employee. The rest is for infrastructure (receiving, QC, sign off inspection, power, rent, custodial costs, etc.).

It irritates the shit out of me when people bitch about a large company charging for their services, when most don't understand what it takes to have a viable business in the Defense market (DFAR required processes levied by the government, retaining staff during periods of inactivity of a product). You can't hire just any fucker with two opposing thumbs. Often times they require clearances and months (if not YEARS) of domain knowledge that is unique to that market. There aren't many "economy of scale" business models for such a niche market.

If someone else could fix it, don't you think someone would start a business doing repairs? So, if you can fix it for $30 an hour, by all means, hang out a shingle. You'll have more business than you can handle.

But somehow I doubt you can...
 
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Huskydriver

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Admittedly, I don't know FLIR's wrap rate. What I do know is many other defense contractor's wrap rates. So I stand by my comment that it seems within the bounds of reasonable. Troubleshooting a damaged/broken product is not something you delegate to a new guy. Figure about 30-40% is actual pay to the employee. The rest is for infrastructure (receiving, QC, sign off inspection, power, rent, custodial costs, etc.).

It irritates the shit out of me when people bitch about a large company charging for their services, when most don't understand what it takes to have a viable business in the Defense market (DFAR required processes levied by the government, retaining staff during periods of inactivity of a product). You can hire just any fucker with two opposing thumbs. Often times they require clearances and months (if not YEARS) of domain knowledge that is unique to that market. There are many economy of scale business models for such a niche market.

If someone else could fix it, don't you think someone would start a business doing repairs? So, if you can fix it for $30 an hour, by all means, hang out a shingle. You'll have more business than you can handle.

But somehow I doubt you can...
I wasnt discounting what you were saying at all btw and agree with almost everything you said I just think you are overly optimistic on what time going wage is for a senior floor tech
 
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The King

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I’m laughing at 6 hours. I could machine, anodize, and assemble the entire sight in 6 hours.

Boresighting an optic like this is a part of the manufacturing process, so it isn’t like some tech is having to reinvent a wheel somewhere.

Realistic labor quote would be 2 hours. And yes $150-200 is a reasonable per hour labor quote. But 6 hours is just stupid.

Admittedly, I don't know FLIR's wrap rate. What I do know is many other defense contractor's wrap rates. So I stand by my comment that it seems within the bounds of reasonable. Troubleshooting a damaged/broken product is not something you delegate to a new guy. Figure about 30-40% is actual pay to the employee. The rest is for infrastructure (receiving, QC, sign off inspection, power, rent, custodial costs, etc.).

It irritates the shit out of me when people bitch about a large company charging for their services, when most don't understand what it takes to have a viable business in the Defense market (DFAR required processes levied by the government, retaining staff during periods of inactivity of a product). You can hire just any fucker with two opposing thumbs. Often times they require clearances and months (if not YEARS) of domain knowledge that is unique to that market. There are many economy of scale business models for such a niche market.

If someone else could fix it, don't you think someone would start a business doing repairs? So, if you can fix it for $30 an hour, by all means, hang out a shingle. You'll have more business than you can handle.

But somehow I doubt you can...
 

hk24

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I would send Ed Wilcox and email and ask if he could do it. He is not cheap but he is reasonable. Not sure if it is something that he would tackle but worth an email to check.

Lynn
 

MarinePMI

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I’m laughing at 6 hours. I could machine, anodize, and assemble the entire sight in 6 hours.

Boresighting an optic like this is a part of the manufacturing process, so it isn’t like some tech is having to reinvent a wheel somewhere.

Realistic labor quote would be 2 hours. And yes $150-200 is a reasonable per hour labor quote. But 6 hours is just stupid.
You hanging out a shingle? Yeah, I didn’t think so...
 

MarinePMI

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Not at this time. I can repair PVS-27s or I can work on setting up production runs on the CNC machines.

Guess which one is more profitable?

6 hours. Because they can is why. Not because it’s true.
Exactly my point. Production runs of quantity are what make things cheap. Not a one off device that needs to be troubleshoot to find the problem. Not to mention how many widgets you have to sell to pay for said CNC machines.

This sounds very millennial'ish, "I want it cheap, because Apple can make it cheap, so everyone should make it cheap." Most times, shit costs what it costs. As you said, you do what is profitable.
 

EGwhisper

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$200/hour is absolutely ridiculous in anywhere but CA where prices are typically double the rest of the country. So if $200 seems reasonable to MarinePMI, realistic is $80-90. A+ Jennifer Aniston type hookers around Chicagoland are only $225/hr.

There are independent repair shops out there (Wilcox, Mod) that do great work.

That $200/hour is covering their corp bonuses and standard inefficiencies of a gov supplier. When you are selling something to the gov on contract for $25k that cost $500 in parts with no real new groundbreaking R&D technology and no competitors you can afford to be a dick to civilians and not give a shit how inefficient your company runs.

If they guarantee not to damage that $12k piece of equipment and return it in 100% perfect working condition that may be adding value, but I imagine there are no such guarantees included in that $200.

I have dealt with Flir. 99% of the people who work there are assholes/idiots and 1% is brilliant and carrying everyone else.
 

falcom

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I have contacted Ed Wilcox and this is beyond his abilities/experience.
There is a lot more to repairing night vision than replacing the battery housing on a PVS-14.
 

The King

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I get that a lot from people who are in “The Industry”.

“The Industry” is the process of asking the US Government if they are completely fucking stupid. This question is asked in the form of an invoice. The answer is always “YES!”.

I see a fair amount of folks in “The Industry” miss a step in their dance routine when they flip over to the civilian market and someone finally says “NO”.
Exactly my point. Production runs of quantity are what make things cheap. Not a one off device that needs to be troubleshoot to find the problem. Not to mention how many widgets you have to sell to pay for said CNC machines.

This sounds very millennial'ish, "I want it cheap, because Apple can make it cheap, so everyone should make it cheap." Most times, shit costs what it costs. As you said, you do what is profitable.
 

The King

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If Ed doesn’t want to touch it that’s a pretty powerful statement.

It may require factory fixtures to assemble/boresight.

The main reason I’m bitching about FLiR is their quote to boresight the unit is most likely untruthful. They just don’t want your business but feel they have to provide SOMETHING as the manufacturer.

Just like Safari Vectronix does.

I have contacted Ed Wilcox and this is beyond his abilities/experience.
There is a lot more to repairing night vision than replacing the battery housing on a PVS-14.
 

Terry Cross

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I would like to throw something out for consideration to any L.E. reading this thread that may have a clip-on as part of your kit.

There are numerous posts in this thread and others that state something along the lines of " my PVS-XX has X amount of POI shift but it is consistent so I just document the shift and dial it out when I mount that unit"

If you are L.E. you should NEVER do this. It is not acceptable. It is not good practice. It is a fuck up waiting to happen that you will not be able to get back or fix after the fact. Do not be tempted to do this because you read it on the internet.

I am adamant about this and extremely secure in my reasons for stating this.


./
 

falcom

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If Ed doesn’t want to touch it that’s a pretty powerful statement.

It may require factory fixtures to assemble/boresight.

The main reason I’m bitching about FLiR is their quote to boresight the unit is most likely untruthful. They just don’t want your business but feel they have to provide SOMETHING as the manufacturer.

Just like Safari Vectronix does.
I have corresponded with the inventor and the designer and t does require special fixtures. Yes it will come back clean/ purged/ aligned and 100%. I have had nothing but good experiences with FLIR repair in Boston. I understand theat when they were in San Fransisco there were problems but my recent experience has been positive.
BTW my local car repair shop charges $105 an hour to work on my brakes.
 
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WillHugh

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You could give Ident Marking a call. They're setup to do more complicated NV repairs (emission point fixes, collimation, etc.) and the guy I've dealt with (the owner I think) has been very helpful. At the very least you might get some good advice.

- Will
 

MarinePMI

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I get that a lot from people who are in “The Industry”.

“The Industry” is the process of asking the US Government if they are completely fucking stupid. This question is asked in the form of an invoice. The answer is always “YES!”.

I see a fair amount of folks in “The Industry” miss a step in their dance routine when they flip over to the civilian market and someone finally says “NO”.
I'm usually pretty laid back in these forums, since most of the time what people say doesn't mean much. I think that makes me a relatively soft handed moderator. But, on occasion, silly bullshit irritates my inner jarhead (aka my "inner Frank/Lowlight), and it screams to come out. So let me put it this way...

1. $200/hr is reasonable for a Defense contractor's engineer/technician billable hours.

2. Doesn't matter if its in California, Oregon, Massachusetts, Indiana or Texas. The rates in Defense are pretty much the same (some variations, but not much) due to DFAR 5000, and the over regulation of process and deliverables (whether they make sense or not).

3. If you have a place other than FLIR that can fix a PVS-27 for cheaper, please post a quote and from what company.

4. If you don't work in Defense, in a Programmatic or Executive position, I suggest you STFU, because you have no idea what you're talking about, or how that industry has been set up over the years to end where we are today with what gets charged. Stick to what you know (which sounds like the tech itself), because you sound like an idiot when you talk about the "Industry".

5. FLIR can come off as assholes, and yes, I have worked with them in a Defense industry role.

6. If you have an issue paying $1250 to repair a $14k piece of equipment, you need to take your happy ass, and go be fucking poor somewhere else. This is like a Maserati or a Lamborghini; if you can afford the car, you shouldn't be bitching about the price of gas or maintenance.

7. Unless you have an IC/EC package within the Defense community, I'd also suggest you STFU, and stick to what you know. There are quite a few retired MIC executives that contribute to this site, and I can tell you, they are laughing at the bullshit you're spewing.

Now, to close this out, let's get this thread back on topic, before someone goes on a vacation to think about things on their own.

Is there someone else other than FLIR that can reset/perform maintenance on a PVS-27?
 

Victor-TNVC

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I would like to throw something out for consideration to any L.E. reading this thread that may have a clip-on as part of your kit.

There are numerous posts in this thread and others that state something along the lines of " my PVS-XX has X amount of POI shift but it is consistent so I just document the shift and dial it out when I mount that unit"

If you are L.E. you should NEVER do this. It is not acceptable. It is not good practice. It is a fuck up waiting to happen that you will not be able to get back or fix after the fact. Do not be tempted to do this because you read it on the internet.

I am adamant about this and extremely secure in my reasons for stating this.


./
Gosh, I cannot agree more here! Excellent post.
 

Victor-TNVC

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I'm usually pretty laid back in these forums, since most of the time what people say doesn't mean much. I think that makes me a relatively soft handed moderator. But, on occasion, silly bullshit irritates my inner jarhead (aka my "inner Frank/Lowlight), and it screams to come out. So let me put it this way...

1. $200/hr is reasonable for a Defense contractor's engineer/technician billable hours.

2. Doesn't matter if its in California, Oregon, Massachusetts, Indiana or Texas. The rates in Defense are pretty much the same (some variations, but not much) due to DFAR 5000, and the over regulation of process and deliverables (whether they make sense or not).

3. If you have a place other than FLIR that can fix a PVS-27 for cheaper, please post a quote and from what company.

4. If you don't work in Defense, in a Programmatic or Executive position, I suggest you STFU, because you have no idea what you're talking about, or how that industry has been set up over the years to end where we are today with what gets charged. Stick to what you know (which sounds like the tech itself), because you sound like an idiot when you talk about the "Industry".

5. FLIR can come off as assholes, and yes, I have worked with them in a Defense industry role.

6. If you have an issue paying $1250 to repair a $14k piece of equipment, you need to take your happy ass, and go be fucking poor somewhere else. This is like a Maserati or a Lamborghini; if you can afford the car, you shouldn't be bitching about the price of gas or maintenance.

7. Unless you have an IC/EC package within the Defense community, I'd also suggest you STFU, and stick to what you know. There are quite a few retired MIC executives that contribute to this site, and I can tell you, they are laughing at the bullshit you're spewing.

Now, to close this out, let's get this thread back on topic, before someone goes on a vacation to think about things on their own.

Is there someone else other than FLIR that can reset/perform maintenance on a PVS-27?
Solid response
I have been to the FLIR factory a few times several years ago. At that time I walked the entire PVS-22 and 27 production line that was a VERY complex and techical process to say the least including ALL glass getting grinded on site to their specifications and not in Japan or anywhere else. In fact the very last stage was their shoot booth were EACH of these hand made devices where placed on a SCAR Heavy and tested for shift.

I know what goes into building these optical devices. It's expensive and it's not a simple process along with proprietary and legacy build techniques that made these OSTI/FLIR units what they are today.

What does concern me is these "certain" units getting peddled out there that are 8-10 MOA outta collimation and so called new? Sorry but these units come from the factory 1MOA or better boresight so what on earth happened they are now way outta spec??? They don't get this way sitting on a shelf untouched.

Bottom line, let the manufacturer fix this period.
 

RyanScott

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This is why I have zero interest in a unit that doesn’t have warranty support. After having an issue with a PVS-4 on hour one.

Terry if you would elaborate I’d love to read it. I’m 98% sure I know why and 100% sure I agree, but I’d still like to see what you have to say.
 
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The King

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I have seen 3 of these that were 8-10 out.

2 of them were obviously very close unmounted/new. Larue rails with no marks at all inside or on the adjuster nut, and 0 scuff marks or anything else anywhere. And the larue wrench in a bag you can’t open without destroying it zip tied to the lever itself.

They came from the same sellers that had units that tested very well as well.

One unit that was 7.8 off was beat. It does hold that 7.8 off so it can be dialed out.

Solid response
I have been to the FLIR factory a few times several years ago. At that time I walked the entire PVS-22 and 27 production line that was a VERY complex and techical process to say the least including ALL glass getting grinded on site to their specifications and not in Japan or anywhere else. In fact the very last stage was their shoot booth were EACH of these hand made devices where placed on a SCAR Heavy and tested for shift.

I know what goes into building these optical devices. It's expensive and it's not a simple process along with proprietary and legacy build techniques that made these OSTI/FLIR units what they are today.

What does concern me is these "certain" units getting peddled out there that are 8-10 MOA outta collimation and so called new? Sorry but these units come from the factory 1MOA or better boresight so what on earth happened they are now way outta spec??? They don't get this way sitting on a shelf untouched.

Bottom line, let the manufacturer fix this period.
 

Terry Cross

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I’d still like to see what you have to say.
1: All of the work grade clip-on units leave the factory after getting signed off on a battery of inspections. This includes PVS-22,24,26,27 and 30.
One of those inspections that must meet a set criteria is the POI shift.
It may or may not be called that in their manuals but that is what it amounts to.
Almost all of them have an acceptable max of 1 M.O.A. shift when they leave the factory.

If you are lucky, have a sturdy unit and manage to keep the banging around to a minimum most of those units will retain their collimation and still stay inside 1 MOA max shift years after they ship.

If your unit currently has a 2MOA shift or an 8MOA shift, that means something moved internally with the prisms or some other alien tech at some point between receipt of the new unit and now. That something was not supposed to move but it did.

Did the shift occur in single event that accounts for the total POI shift you are currently experiencing or is it the cumulative error from 2 or 3 events that caused the total POI shift you now have?
It could be from recoil during use even if the unit is supposed to be rated up to 50BMG. If something is loose that shouldn't be, then recoil rating is a moot point.
The "event" could also be from banging the gun around with the unit mounted or even transporting the unit when it is not even mounted.

If it moved at least once. . . . , something is already loose or out of alignment internally and could very likely move again. So are you going to take a unit with a known POI issue to a potential use of deadly force with the last known POI shift "dialed out"? That is very unprofessional and actually negligent in my opinion.

"It does hold that 7.8 off so it can be dialed out ". How long can you guarantee that unit will "hold" 7.8?
It sure as heck didn't get from =/< 1 MOA to 7.8 by design. How can you in good faith ask your team and/or a non-hostile to count on a round tracking straight when it is pointed by an optical tool that is out of spec?

So my point is that it moved at least once when it was not supposed to. To assume that it will not move/shift again would be foolish. It is only going to "hold" the current offset until it decides on its on that it didn't like the way it was handled or bumped.

L.E. that actually has deployable NV, should be using it for live fire and documenting the ability of that unit to stay inside the factory 1 MOA window once a quarter or at a bare minimum of twice a year. That documentation should go into the current logbook for that shooter/gun. It is so easy, even our dumb asses teach it to all of our classes.

Question for you..... You are checking zero of your work gun at the range during lunch one day. You notice that you suddenly have a 7 MOA shift in your day scope from the zero you have retained since the rifle was issued to you. Now you re-zero and re-set your turrets.....shoot a group or couple of dots but it is "holding" just fine now.........
Are you good with putting it back in the cruiser and counting on it to save your 12yr old niece an hour later in a tight hostage event?

I hope the answer would be a solid No. That bitch would get wrote up and somebody would tear it down systematically to find out what the hell happened to shove 7MOA up my ass for no reason. Once it is returned to me and supposedly corrected, I am going to put some time and rounds on it and me so that my brain is once again confident of the package so I can concentrate on the radio and what is happening in front of the gun.

As a professional, you are trusted to be familiar with your equipment, know its performance limits, keep everything serviceable and know when something is not right. If something is not right, you document it in writing and CC at least 2 of your TLs or commanders. That something is pulled from service and corrected before you rotate it back into an available status.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Besides the above, I have at least one additional reason for L.E. to not dial in the offset.

2: We consistently see shooter induced errors with the rifle and peripherals double (at least that much) once operations extend into night hours. Even when the shooter does everything correctly the time line for gun handling, target acquisition, PID and proper engagement is substantially longer than the same chain of events performed in daylight.

With performance degradation already an issue at night due mostly to poorly programmed equipment and gun handling skills, it is a fact that if you add stress/duress/time compression to the equation there are increased frequencies that some tasks are inadvertently skipped or performed incorrectly. If I was expecting one of my PMOs to get it done while remembering to dial in 7 or 10 MOA in the correct directions or at all, I am absolutely setting him up for failure.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Both of the above are recipes for disaster.

./
 
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Victor-TNVC

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1: All of the work grade clip-on units leave the factory after getting signed off on a battery of inspections. This includes PVS-22,24,26,27 and 30.
One of those inspections that must meet a set criteria is the POI shift.
It may or may not be called that in their manuals but that is what it amounts to.
Almost all of them have an acceptable max of 1 M.O.A. shift when they leave the factory.

If you are lucky, have a sturdy unit and manage to keep the banging around to a minimum most of those units will retain their collimation and still stay inside 1 MOA max shift years after they ship.

If your unit currently has a 2MOA shift or an 8MOA shift, that means something moved internally with the prisms or some other alien tech at some point between receipt of the new unit and now. That something was not supposed to move but it did.

Did the shift occur in single event that accounts for the total POI shift you are currently experiencing or is it the cumulative error from 2 or 3 events that caused the total POI shift you now have?
It could be from recoil during use even if the unit is supposed to be rated up to 50BMG. If something is loose that shouldn't be, then recoil rating is a moot point.
The "event" could also be from banging the gun around with the unit mounted or even transporting the unit when it is not even mounted.

If it moved at least once. . . . , something is already loose or out of alignment internally and could very likely move again. So are you going to take a unit with a known POI issue to a potential use of deadly force with the last known POI shift "dialed out"? That is very unprofessional and actually negligent in my opinion.

"It does hold that 7.8 off so it can be dialed out ". How long can you guarantee that unit will "hold" 7.8?
It sure as heck didn't get from =/< 1 MOA to 7.8 by design. How can you in good faith ask your team and/or a non-hostile to count on a round tracking straight when it is pointed by an optical tool that is out of spec?

So my point is that it moved at least once when it was not supposed to. To assume that it will not move/shift again would be foolish. It is only going to "hold" the current offset until it decides on its on that it didn't like the way it was handled or bumped.

L.E. that actually has deployable NV, should be using it for live fire and documenting the ability of that unit to stay inside the factory 1 MOA window once a quarter or at a bare minimum of twice a year. That documentation should go into the current logbook for that shooter/gun. It is so easy, even our dumb asses teach it to all of our classes.

Question for you..... You are checking zero of your work gun at the range during lunch one day. You notice that you suddenly have a 7 MOA shift in your day scope from the zero you have retained since the rifle was issued to you. Now you re-zero and re-set your turrets.....shoot a group or couple of dots but it is "holding" just fine now.........
Are you good with putting it back in the cruiser and counting on it to save your 12yr old niece an hour later in a tight hostage event?

I hope the answer would be a solid No. That bitch would get wrote up and somebody would tear it down systematically to find out what the hell happened to shove 7MOA up my ass for no reason. Once it is returned to me and supposedly corrected, I am going to put some time and rounds on it and me so that my brain is once again confident of the package so I can concentrate on the radio and what is happening in front of the gun.

As a professional, you are trusted to be familiar with your equipment, know its performance limits, keep everything serviceable and know when something is not right. If something is not right, you document it in writing and CC at least 2 of your TLs or commanders. That something is pulled from service and corrected before you rotate it back into an available status.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Besides the above, I have at least one additional reason for L.E. to not dial in the offset.

2: We consistently see shooter induced errors with the rifle and peripherals double (at least that much) once operations extend into night hours. Even when the shooter does everything correctly the time line for gun handling, target acquisition, PID and proper engagement is substantially longer than the same chain of events performed in daylight.

With performance degradation already an issue at night due mostly to poorly programmed equipment and gun handling skills, it is a fact that if you add stress/duress/time compression to the equation there are increased frequencies that some tasks are inadvertently skipped or performed incorrectly. If I was expecting one of my PMOs to get it done while remembering to dial in 7 or 10 MOA in the correct directions or at all, I am absolutely setting him up for failure.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Both of the above are recipes for disaster.

./
Preach it Terry!
 

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Jan 25, 2010
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the Westside
I have seen 7 moa or more. But it was repeatable so you just dial it out.

We teach all of our shooters to baseline their optic and dial out the night shooting variance.

Usually it’s 1.5-3.5 moa. So what’s the difference in dialing 6? Not much.
I'm lucky as shit on my last PVS30 with it being only a .1mil upwards adjustment.

It was so close I thought something was wrong. lol