Question about neck tension consistency

EchoDeltaSierra

EchoDeltaSierra

Slightly above average
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Jun 1, 2013
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#1
As my reloading practice has evolves, I've been a bit more focused on brass and I'm trying to up my brass game. I'm shooting 6.5CR with Hornady 140gr ELD-M pills and CCI BR-2 primers. I have a few 50-rount lots of Nosler brass and the one I'm currently working with has 3 firings and was just loaded a 4th time.

Here's what I'm currently doing to process brass.
- Decap using a RCBS decapping die
- Tumble in dry media for long enough
- Anneal if necessary; I annealed this lot after its 3rd firing (using a socket on drill and torch the watch the coloring of the brass)
- Size as follows: I'm bump the shoulder .003 off my chamber, with neck bushing, and pull a flaoting carbide expander ball through the neck
- wipe and inspect
- From there, I prime, charge, and press the pill in.

Upon inspection of this last batch, 4 of the 50 rounds I can spin the bullet without much force. The other 41 rounds are not a problem.

What could be causing this? Did I not anneal those four enough (or too much)? Did I mess up something else I'm not even aware of?

Curious what some of you might suggest. Thanks. -Eric-
 
#4
If your sizing die is a Redding, and the floating carbide expander the same, measure the ball, I think it will answer your question. I have the same in 6, 6.5, and 7mm and do not like, they remove most of the tension from the bushing used.
 
#6
So, seems like I either misunderstood something or was working with poor info. During a previous lot of brass, I was experiencing similar issues and it was suggested (or at least I interpreted as such) that I should always pull a ball through to maintain concentricity. I also stepped down my neck bushing by .001.

Should I run my cases back through the sizing die without the expander? Maybe even step down another .001 in neck size?

Untimate goal is ammo I can load in a magazine and toss in a backpack for days. Once I get this figured out, I’ll make 50 with sealed bullets and primers.
 
#7
Milo 2.5 said:
If your sizing die is a Redding, and the floating carbide expander the same, measure the ball, I think it will answer your question. I have the same in 6, 6.5, and 7mm and do not like, they remove most of the tension from the bushing used.
Click to expand...

Because near zero tension is only in a few pieces, the above should not be the issue. That said I am not saying that he should use the expander. But he asked about the inconsistency with 4 of 50 spinning.

The issue he is having is 100% constant, especially with Horandy brass (seems super prone to loosing the tendency to stay sized and to spring back) with over heating the brass and making it too soft.

OP, here is the rub, you are only seeing the ultra extreme with your example of the spinning bullet. Most likely you'll have brass that requires from 90 to 20 lbs but can hardly feel the difference with a standard press. With soft seating or jamming like many BR guys do very low neck tension works. But if your jumping ultra low NT tends to really jack ones SDs if the primer is able to move the bullet to soon. If you have some tight and some loose, you'll have wide velocity spreads.

Obviously, if you can keep the brass running mostly the same you can seat on just about any press. But using an arbor press can really enlighten one to the various seating pressure. Keeping the seating resistance/pressure the same really lowers the SDs. Personally I would NOT anneal your brass unless you have a much better way to control the consistency and or and arbor press to sort by resistance. If you sort by seating you'll be surprised what you can get away with or not do and still have good SDs

I didn't watch this video - I just did a quick search on the K&M arbor I use (along with the Rock Chucker, Forster, and Dillon). Anyway no idea what the heck the guy in the video is going to say but the image in the home screen is shows the press.
Edited to add. I just skimmed through it.. it is a bit weird but at around minute 6.. you 'll see the press used to seat
 
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#8
Since your allready using a bushing die I would also recommend ditching the expander from the sizing die and get a die and mandrel set. The expander mandrel will leave approximately. 001" of tension and a turning mandrel will leave .002" atleast that's what it works out to with my 21st century mandrels.
 
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#9
EchoDeltaSierra said:
So, seems like I either misunderstood something or was working with poor info. During a previous lot of brass, I was experiencing similar issues and it was suggested (or at least I interpreted as such) that I should always pull a ball through to maintain concentricity. I also stepped down my neck bushing by .001.

Should I run my cases back through the sizing die without the expander? Maybe even step down another .001 in neck size?

Untimate goal is ammo I can load in a magazine and toss in a backpack for days. Once I get this figured out, I’ll make 50 with sealed bullets and primers.
Click to expand...
If you plan on running the ball, it will do no good to step down in bushing size, it's all negated with the ball, try w/o the ball.
One thing I didn't mention, that floating ball, I think it can come back through cockeyed, too much slop. If you feel you want the inside of your necks treated with some type of application, use the appropriate size expander mandrel and die.
 
#10
EchoDeltaSierra said:
So, seems like I either misunderstood something or was working with poor info. During a previous lot of brass, I was experiencing similar issues and it was suggested (or at least I interpreted as such) that I should always pull a ball through to maintain concentricity. I also stepped down my neck bushing by .001.
Click to expand...
The single most annoying to me issue I read about on internet gun forums concerns concentricity and ways to uniform it. Everyone is an expert, yet you'll never see where a downrange test was conducted where 1,2,3,4,5, or 6 thousands of runout were actually shot from the same rifle. First, it'd be tough to do. I read on here one guy was claiming his negative runout 0.0000000- reduced his SD numbers to .000001
I own a 21st Century concentricity gauge with the wheel, it gathers the same amount of dust as my neck turning equipment. Find a way to measure your ammo sometime to determine what is necessary.
 
#11
You over annealed the brass. Now it has lost its ability to spring back so whatever passes through the neck will open the neck and the brass will not be able to hold on. Think direction of springback.
 
#12
918v said:
You over annealed the brass. Now it has lost its ability to spring back so whatever passes through the neck will open the neck and the brass will not be able to hold on. Think direction of springback.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't springback from non or under annealed brass exhibit the same properties?
 
#14
918v said:
No it would not. Over annealed brass does not spring back. It is dead. Springback is what holds the bullet.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I beg to differ, springback goes both ways. Roll back 8 yrs or so, a friend and I both shooting 7 saum, I had an annealing machine, he had never annealed. One day he said his brass had 32 firings on it, asked if he had annealed, no was his answer. So I asked how he maintained neck tension, he had been scaling down in bushing size over time, was using a .308", where I was running a .312". Same Rem brand brass.
 
#15
Milo 2.5 said:
Sorry, I beg to differ, springback goes both ways.
Click to expand...

Millo,

Make the easy experiment.. I've done it by mistake and I have seen many others do it first hand. Use Hornady brass preferably, but all brass does the same. Over heat the necks.. Try sizing it and come back here to repost back.

What happens is that the bass is fired and too large, but it now will not hold shape well because it has been over heated "before sizing". Anneal it, size it and measure it with a pressure gauge the seating tension.

I promise you agree that over annealed necks do NOT hold tension well.

Jim
 
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#16
EchoDeltaSierra said:
I annealed this lot after its 3rd firing (using a socket on drill and torch the watch the coloring of the brass)
Click to expand...

Color is not an accurate indicator, neither the purple that can be seen on some brass in the daylight nor the dull red in a dark room. Both are myths because those indicators vary widely depending on brass thickness, composition, and the level of oxidation on the brass to begin with.
 
#17
Milo 2.5 said:
Sorry, I beg to differ, springback goes both ways. Roll back 8 yrs or so, a friend and I both shooting 7 saum, I had an annealing machine, he had never annealed. One day he said his brass had 32 firings on it, asked if he had annealed, no was his answer. So I asked how he maintained neck tension, he had been scaling down in bushing size over time, was using a .308", where I was running a .312". Same Rem brand brass.
Click to expand...

I think we’re miscommunicating.

An over annealed case does not spring back. It is dead. So if you set the neck tension to .002” and the neck id is, say .306”, and then you seat a .308” bullet in that neck, it will expand to .308” and have no grip.

A properly annealed neck will expand to .308” BUT it will want to return to .3075” and this is the spring back that holds the bullet. In fact, if you pull that bullet the neck ID will be less than .308”, around .3075”
 
#18
Diver160651 said:
Millo,

Make the easy experiment.. I've done it by mistake and I have seen many others do it first hand. Use Hornady brass preferably, but all brass does the same. Over heat the necks.. Try sizing it and come back here to repost back.

What happens is that the bass is fired and too large, but it now will not hold shape well because it has been over heated (it has more spring if you will) . Size it and measure it with a pressure gauge the seating tension.

I promise you agree..

Jim
Click to expand...
Neither one of you is looking at it quite right. Brass that has spring in it resists change in either direction. Over annealed brass is playdough.
 
#19
Diver160651 said:
Millo,

Make the easy experiment.. I've done it by mistake and I have seen many others do it first hand. Use Hornady brass preferably, but all brass does the same. Over heat the necks.. Try sizing it and come back here to repost back.

What happens is that the bass is fired and too large, but it now will not hold shape well because it has been over heated (it has more spring if you will) . Size it and measure it with a pressure gauge the seating tension.

I promise you agree..

Jim
Click to expand...
Heck, I bought a Giraud annealer in 2011, if you think I have not over annealed cases, revisit that one, lol. I just use a smaller bushing to get a suitable seating force. But I'm still right here, springback from over used brass can create the same scenario, though I doubt it is the op's issue. He's has a combo effect of over annealing and that carbide ball, it can create it's own set of issues. He needs to lose it.
 
#20
Milo 2.5 said:
Heck, I bought a Giraud annealer in 2011, if you think I have not over annealed cases, revisit that one, lol. I just use a smaller bushing to get a suitable seating force. But I'm still right here, springback from over used brass can create the same scenario, though I doubt it is the op's issue. He's has a combo effect of over annealing and that carbide ball, it can create it's own set of issues. He needs to lose it.
Click to expand...
Maybe he needs to learn basic reloading before attempting advanced reloading.
 
#21
Skookum said:
Neither one of you is looking at it quite right. Brass that has spring in it resists change in either direction. Over annealed brass is playdough.
Click to expand...
One thing the op can do to alleviate the softness, is run each case back through his die 4-5 times and rework it, then focus on tension.
 
#24
Milo 2.5 said:
Maybe, let's just try help him though. He has a shit show, lol, but I've fucked up more things reloading than most would ever admit.
Click to expand...
You are correct about running them through to harden them up again. It has worked before, but it depends on whether they got hot enough to burn off a bunch of the zinc. He also would need a plain old full length sizer.
 
#25
Milo 2.5 said:
One thing the op can do to alleviate the softness, is run each case back through his die 4-5 times and rework it, then focus on tension.
Click to expand...

Yes, that kinda works if you know you have made a mistake and all the brass is similar and have stander sami min die or whatever. Like if I ran my Benchsource annealer on the wrong settings for a few hundred rounds or whatever. But that doesn't work for inconstant rounds as you discover it during seating, unless you'll pull and rework it. Either way once you've f'd up the brass, it is way better just tossing it out.

Key to this, is his process of hand timing, hand turning and proximity to the flame makes it very difficult to get consistent results... The description of "Upon inspection of this last batch, 4 of the 50 rounds I can spin the bullet without much force. The other 41 rounds are not a problem." kinda show the issue with his process.

Honestly the best bang for the buck is sorting by seating and not doing annealing at all if your process isn't totally dialed. Even then, I'd still say the arbor is the very best investment for lower SDs
 
#26
Skookum said:
Maybe he needs to learn basic reloading before attempting advanced reloading.
Click to expand...
I've been reloading for 33 yrs and still learn new things bi weekly. I've wanted an AMP annealing machine, holding out till case feeder certified. I borrowed a friends this week to do my dasher brass. It wasn't until I was done fully processing the brass that I noticed the carbon was gone on the inside of the necks, it has the orangish coloring of sonic cleaned brass. It has been so windy here I have not got out to test at distance to see what I have going on.
 
#27
Diver160651 said:
Yes, that kinda works if you know you have made a mistake and all the brass is similar and have stander sami min die or whatever. Like if I ran my Benchsource annealer on the wrong settings for a few hundred rounds or whatever. But that doesn't work for inconstant rounds as you discover it during seating, unless you'll pull and rework it. Either way once you've f'd up the brass, it is way better just tossing it out.

Key to this, is his process of hand timing, hand turning and proximity to the flame makes it very difficult to get consistent results... The description of "Upon inspection of this last batch, 4 of the 50 rounds I can spin the bullet without much force. The other 41 rounds are not a problem." kinda show the issue with his process.

Honestly the best bang for the buck is sorting by seating and not doing annealing at all if your process isn't totally dialed. Even then, I'd still say the arbor is the very best investment for lower SDs
Click to expand...
I anneal mine by hand, but I have a fixture that gives me the same distance and angle to the torch everytime. I also use a single flame rather than a double. It takes a second or two more but is also more forgiving. I also use a metronome app to make sure the times are consistent.
 
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#28
Diver160651 said:
Yes, that kinda works if you know you have made a mistake and all the brass is similar and have stander sami min die or whatever. Like if I ran my Benchsource annealer on the wrong settings for a few hundred rounds or whatever. But that doesn't work for inconstant rounds as you discover it during seating, unless you'll pull and rework it. Either way once you've f'd up the brass, it is way better just tossing it out.

Key to this, is his process of hand timing, hand turning and proximity to the flame makes it very difficult to get consistent results... The description of "Upon inspection of this last batch, 4 of the 50 rounds I can spin the bullet without much force. The other 41 rounds are not a problem." kinda show the issue with his process.

Honestly the best bang for the buck is sorting by seating and not doing annealing at all if your process isn't totally dialed. Even then, I'd still say the arbor is the very best investment for lower SDs
Click to expand...
Some people will not toss brass, plus we assume the 41 are good, probably compromised to some degree also.
I'm on board starting fresh and following a proven method that will work for him. But really, here lies the problem of gathering info off the web, there are 6 of us in here spouting off our knowledge, he has to pick who to follow. A guy has to be on top of his game to sort through info gathered, glad it is not me.
 
#29
Diver160651 said:
Yes, that kinda works if you know you have made a mistake and all the brass is similar and have stander sami min die or whatever. Like if I ran my Benchsource annealer on the wrong settings for a few hundred rounds or whatever. But that doesn't work for inconstant rounds as you discover it during seating, unless you'll pull and rework it. Either way once you've f'd up the brass, it is way better just tossing it out.

Key to this, is his process of hand timing, hand turning and proximity to the flame makes it very difficult to get consistent results... The description of "Upon inspection of this last batch, 4 of the 50 rounds I can spin the bullet without much force. The other 41 rounds are not a problem." kinda show the issue with his process.

Honestly the best bang for the buck is sorting by seating and not doing annealing at all if your process isn't totally dialed. Even then, I'd still say the arbor is the very best investment for lower SDs
Click to expand...

It does not work when you’re using a bushing die and moving the brass by .001”

It works on a standard FL die where you’re moving the brass a lot.
 
#34
Nuts,
De-prime
Clean
Anneal using a REAL annealing process, your process LACKS consistency.
FL size bumping shoulder .001-.003
Push a mandrel to expand neck.
Check length, trim if necessary.

Ready to load
 
#35
Milo 2.5 said:
Some people will not toss brass, plus we assume the 41 are good, probably compromised to some degree also.
I'm on board starting fresh and following a proven method that will work for him. But really, here lies the problem of gathering info off the web, there are 6 of us in here spouting off our knowledge, he has to pick who to follow. A guy has to be on top of his game to sort through info gathered, glad it is not me.
Click to expand...

:) funny but in reality, I think all but one are saying the same thing.

Over annealing and or annealing inconsistency is a real issue.

:)
 
#37
Diver160651 said:
:) funny but in reality, I think all but one are saying the same thing.

Over annealing and or annealing inconsistency is a real issue.

:)
Click to expand...
Lol, I do believe you re referring to me, I said above I agree, coupled with that carbide ball, they are oversize, at least mine are, only thing mine are good for is expanding new brass if needed as no lube is needed.
 
#40
EchoDeltaSierra said:
Would running the pieces all through a standard FL resize die be something worth trying?
Click to expand...
In my opinion, as just one more internet guy, don't worry about all this annealing, bushing die, neck tension shit just yet. Learn to work up a load. Learn to seat bullets consistently and concentrically. Learn to trim and size your brass.

For now, get a quality competition standard Full length sizing die (non-bushing) from somebody named either Redding or Forster.... and just do that.
 
#41
EchoDeltaSierra said:
Not at all. I just cracked up about how you said it. This has become quite the hobby of mine to obsess about. As one thing improvise it only reveals flaws in something else.
Click to expand...
Haha, it is a process no doubt. You will spend a fortune in reloading gear over your lifetime. I started fresh in reloading twice, I have 2 pcs of original gear from the 2nd startup, 2 hand held priming tools, and a 10-10 scale that I save for armegeddon, lol.
Presses, scales, case prep crap, trimmers, etc... I have 2 sonic cleaners, industrial, one a 400+ behemoth that will clean brass to 3x new state in 15 min and mess neck tension up beyond belief. But I keep it for cleaning suppressors, did a tbac ultra with 8oz of carbon buldup in 36 hrs, if I could have poured the heat to it, may have did it in 18.
Finding a mentor close by is the smartest way ever to learn, if you outgrow him, find another. With todays products, if one can afford, doing things the way I did if your budget allows would be plain stupid.
One thing on buying advice too, it's the internet and nobody admits they bought a POS. Which is one reason I like accurate shooter.com, old guys with money, someone chimes in with "don't do it".
 
#42
EchoDeltaSierra said:
That. Is. Hilarious. Also, I do appreciate all of the feedback and have no problems sorting through this to figure out what my next step is.
Click to expand...

I can't solve all your problems. But if you want to keep annealing, at least get yourself some Tempilaq 450 and 750. Look up how to use it to get how much time it takes to reach the desired temperature with YOUR brass.
 
#43
Mike_in_FL said:
I can't solve all your problems. But if you want to keep annealing, at least get yourself some Tempilaq 450 and 750. Look up how to use it to get how much time it takes to reach the desired temperature with YOUR brass.
Click to expand...

I have used the tempilaq paint and this issue was due to human error. Annealeez was just ordered with some PayPal funds from a recent SH sale. The robot should be more consistent.
 
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#44
EchoDeltaSierra said:
I have used the tempilaq paint and this issue was due to human error. Annealeez was just ordered with some PayPal funds from a recent SH sale. The robot should be more consistent.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. Well congrats on the annealer. I would like one too. Right after I get a Kestrel, and a KRG Bravo for the Nucleus, and an Autotrickler and a... This shooting stuff is better suited for lottery winners.
 
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#46
Diver160651 said:
Ok can you explain to me how a Sami min die is not a FL die?

I think your arguments aren’t really with what I said
Click to expand...

The OP is using a bushing die. His setup moves the brass by maybe .004” total. So telling him to size his cases a bunch of times won’t do anything to harden the neck. And then there’s the shoulder, which the die won’t work at all, which is also over annealed.

A standard FL die will work harden the neck (if you run the brass a bunch of times, like 20) but leave the shoulder too soft. So it might be worth it to try if he already has the die. I wouldn’t buy one for that purpose, though. I would just buy new brass.
 
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#47
Again - a $100 arbor is a bigger bag for the dollar if your really trying to reduce SDs (assuming you’re 1/2 way tossing powder ok).

Relize that even with an anealer, they will be differences in neck tension.

Just tossing that out sence you going through so much trouble anyway. Of course the Indian is still what hits the targets.
 
#48
EchoDeltaSierra said:
I have used the tempilaq paint and this issue was due to human error. Annealeez was just ordered with some PayPal funds from a recent SH sale. The robot should be more consistent.
Click to expand...

Good move. If you get it set up right, you'll have reduced one key variable and that should help understand what else is affecting neck tension. I'm in the mandrel camp also and agree with comments above on the arbor press for seating. Please report back after you solve the problem.
 
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#49
Diver160651 said:
Again - a $100 arbor is a bigger bag for the dollar if your really trying to reduce SDs (assuming you’re 1/2 way tossing powder ok).
Click to expand...

I'm going to look into the arbor further. As for the tossing powder, I achieved good, then it went to hell. I went back, revisited how I was tossing powder, re-checked all of my numbers, etc. I can shoot 5-shot strings over the chrono and get sub-5 S-Ds, then the next set is an S-D of 15. This is what led me down this rabbit hole.

I'm also trying to product ammo with accuracy acceptable for PRS yet keep things simple enough to support the high volumes of PRS.

And, yes, I realize I'm burning my barrel with all this learning, but I've got no problem putting wear on my R700 5R barreled action for learning sake and replacing / re-barraled once I get this figured out.
 
#50
Since you’re into learning...

Too soft of a neck, wrong (not necessarily inconsistent) charge weight/oal, primer incompatibility, yield high ES/SD. If you’re at max pressure, any little variance has a huge effect. It’s like leverage in your press: the closer you’re to TDC, the more leverage you have. The closer you are to max, the more leverage variables have.

I suggest you get Tempilaq 650 instead of 750. By the time you see it melting the temp will be way past that. 650 is a good medium.
 
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