Rifle Scopes Ran out of windage sighting in scope

[1slow01z71]

The gun is ruger 77/17 and the scope if a Vortex Viper PA 6.5-20 saddled in ruger rings.

I really like the scope but when I tried to zero it this weekend I ran out of windage and was still about 3" to the right at 100yds. I previously had a crappy BSA sweet 17(thus the upgrade) with the factory rings that came with the gun and everything was fine. Due to this scope having a 30mm tube I had to get new rings. They are ruger rings, and atleast visually they seem to be ok. Im not really sure where to start other than taking it all apart and starting over.

Its a consistent 3ish inches to right, I can put a nice group in so that leads me to believe everything is nice and tightened up just that either Ive got a bum scope or rings. I wont rule out user error but this isn't the first scope Ive mounted but this is the first one Ive had do this to me.

Any help would be nice. I don't have an extra 30mm tube scope to eliminate that factor unfortunately.

Ive since moved the scope a bit further forward since this pic but Im working with tight bolt to power ring clearances.

 

[stranded]

Is it possible to introduce wind with your ring set-up? You know, like not getting the rings square/equal tightness to the bases. Did you use a ring alignment tool? How much work is it to start over? I'm thinking find center of elevation/windage on the scope then use bore sighter to establish how for off you are windage wise. I think this would help find your problem quicker.? BTW, your gun vise is waaay to clean.

 

[1slow01z71]

Theres a few problems with the setup that make it a bit more difficult. I hate these rings, and I might end up ditching them for a rail and regular picatinny rings but this setup allows me to keep nice cheek weld. My bore sighter doesn't have a 17 caliber arbor so I cant check it that way. The rings don't have concentric inserts like some of the burris rings do, and the rings have the same clearance on the receiver so it leads me to believe Ive got a scope problem. Its not very hard to start over, was just hoping to get some ideas of where to start looking.

Im anal about keeping my stuff clean so the vise gets wiped down after every use

 

[stranded]

Apparently, you don't have kids.(They kill the desire for cleanliness, 'cause you're tooo tired) You could put a dot on a wall, pull the bolt and check that way. I'm kind of leaning towards the rings could be changed front to back, or reversed(tightened from opposite side)

How did your elevation turn out? You're not bottomed out are you? This can make windage adjustments quit. I went with DIP base on a CZ and really, really like it. Good luck.

 

[1slow01z71]

I didn't have any problems getting the rings to line up right, but I suppose it couldn't hurt to swap em. Elevation wasn't off by more than 6" or so at 100. Guess Ill bust it down tomorrow night and see if anything looks out of place.

Ive got a 2 and a half year old another one due in September. Ive given up on much of the house but my office, gun stuff and garage stay as clean as it possibly can. Just one of my anal retentive tendencies.

 

[stranded]

Congradulations on the new and the 2.5 yr old. Nothing is wrong with ART. Hang strong, kids will pick the habit if you don't tell them it's odd. Kind of like cleaning a litter box, it has to be done and this is the way we do it. They will never catch on before high school if you are lucky.

 

[kmose73]

On the ruger I had, where the rings mount to the receiver, the back ring is longer. If that is the case here, no way to swap them. If you put two rings of the same height on a ruger receiver and mount the scope that scope will be in a hell of a bind.

 

[TheJ]

But you could flip them 180* and tighten them from the other side. Get some comfort on the rings that way.

 

[RonboF117]

If none of the above suggestions work, then I think you need to put a 1913 up there. EGW, Badger, and Seekins are where you should start. Pick one of those to provide the 1913 rail conversion from Weaver. Then go get a set of Marty or Glenn's rings (unless you want a one piece) and you should be in business. At that point it will have a solid foundation.

 

[wielywilly-g]

I put a Ken Farrel base on mine. I would bet anything it is not your scope.

1 RUG77SX-1-2 Ruger M77 Sjprt in steel black $126.13 $126.13
0 matte finish


SUBTOTAL $126.13
SALES TAX $0.00
SHIPPING $0.00

ORDER TOTAL $126.13



Should you have a question about your order, or about other Ken Farrell, Inc.

I had to get it drilled and tapped. I think the front hole was a blind tap. I am looking for a picture of it but I can't find one. I have one before the sugery, but not after. I will take one tonight. I hated the way those Ruger rings mounted.

 

[mzvarner]

I had a similar problem with my vortex viper. I found mechanical zero and then took it back out and the problem was solved.

 

[1slow01z71]

On the ruger I had, where the rings mount to the receiver, the back ring is longer. If that is the case here, no way to swap them. If you put two rings of the same height on a ruger receiver and mount the scope that scope will be in a hell of a bind.

The ruger 77 rimfires are different than the centerfires. I originally bought a set of regular 77 rings from cabelas only to figure out that the rimfires utilize same height rings whereas the centerfires use two different height rings.

But you could flip them 180* and tighten them from the other side. Get some comfort on the rings that way.

What do you mean by comfort? I mounted the bases first then dropped in the scope and nothing was in a bind .

I believe there is one outfit (don't quote me) that makes a pic rail for the 77

Here's the link:

Ruger 77/22 Scope Mounts Weaver WEIG-A-TINNY tm

You will likely have to make an upgrade your stock as the comb height will be higher....needing a stock pack or a mechanical riser of sorts for proper cheekweld.

And with the additional height means a lower set of rings to keep the setup from getting overly tall.

Fortunately for you,that's a good thing as the factory rings suck and can be sold off as other people are usually dealing with this issue.

The gun is an X-17 so I really dont want to mess with it since its a limited edition gun. I suppose a stock pack would be an option Id just like to avoid it if possible which was the whole reason I went with a set of factory rings even though I hate the design.

I put a Ken Farrel base on mine. I would bet anything it is not your scope.

1 RUG77SX-1-2 Ruger M77 Sjprt in steel black $126.13 $126.13
0 matte finish


SUBTOTAL $126.13
SALES TAX $0.00
SHIPPING $0.00

ORDER TOTAL $126.13



Should you have a question about your order, or about other Ken Farrell, Inc.

I had to get it drilled and tapped. I think the front hole was a blind tap. I am looking for a picture of it but I can't find one. I have one before the sugery, but not after. I will take one tonight. I hated the way those Ruger rings mounted.

Since its a limited edition gun I wont do any permanent mods to it like drilling and taping the receiver but those do look like nice bases.

I had a similar problem with my vortex viper. I found mechanical zero and then took it back out and the problem was solved.

How would finding mechanical zero help if Ive got the windage maxed out already?

 

[mzvarner]

How would finding mechanical zero help if Ive got the windage maxed out already?

Because maybe when you got the scope it was not already at mechanical zero. If my thinking is correct you could find zero with it skewed to one side. Zero is dependent on to planes vertical (elevation) and horizontal (wind age). "Zero" is the intersection of the two planes. So if mechanical zero is not found, you could zero with more horizontal adjustment in one direction versus the other.

I am still new to shooting and scopes. If my thinking is wrong then I'm sorry. I had a similar problem that was solved by counting out the clicks.

 

[kmose73]

There's got to be a problem w/ the rings. I would rotate them 180 deg and see if the scope is off the opposite way. If that does't help I'm out of ideas.

 

[1slow01z71]

Because maybe when you got the scope it was not already at mechanical zero. If my thinking is correct you could find zero with it skewed to one side. Zero is dependent on to planes vertical (elevation) and horizontal (wind age). "Zero" is the intersection of the two planes. So if mechanical zero is not found, you could zero with more horizontal adjustment in one direction versus the other.

I am still new to shooting and scopes. If my thinking is wrong then I'm sorry. I had a similar problem that was solved by counting out the clicks.

The scope has a finite amount of travel and Im at the end of it. If its a problem with the rings that has the scope tube out of alignment with the bore then whatever I do to crank the turrets isnt going to change that fact that Im out of windage. In a perfect world we would like to mount a scope and it be dead on with the bore so the only thing you have to accomadate for is the slight elevation difference so you can keep all your travel to compensate for distance and windage. Even though I never dial windage and just adjust with the reticle. So I could really care less, especially for this rifle(17hmr) about having any windage adjustment but its also not good to be shooting maxed out on either adjustment from what Ive read. Ive never personally experienced the problems some have with maxed out turrets but Im not a competition shooter either.

There's got to be a problem w/ the rings. I would rotate them 180 deg and see if the scope is off the opposite way. If that does't help I'm out of ideas.

I think thats going to be first method. Im also going to go ahead and order the primary arms 4-14 scope for my 10/17HM2 build in case I need it to troubleshoot this vortex scope.

 

[wielywilly-g]

Woops, sorry. I figured a 77 was a 77, Mine is 22-250.
Sounds like you have a good debug plan.

My Vortex Viper looks a lot different than yours. What is your full adjustment range of windage on that one?

Elevation wise, when I set up a new scope/rifle combo, I try to get a canted base angled enough so that almost all of my elevation range is usable. For example if I have 70MOA full range I will put on a 30deg base so I have 65MOA up avalible and 5 down. It actually comes to more like 63.5MOA up and 6.5MOA down depending on your scope height and your zero distance. I don't get it when people use a zero cant base. You are already wasting over 1/2 of your elevation adjustment right out of the box. Anyway, since your scope to barrel mounting could be as much as a full degree off left or right, couldn't you visually see that with a straight edge set on top the scope? Maybe not. I had a bad scope ring on a 22LR not letting me come on target, but I could see it wasn't in line with the barrel, but that may have been way further off than yours.

 

[SPD339]

Hi guys. My first post. I am reading this thread with great interest. Found it after googling "windage problems". I have a new Savage 12BVSS .223 that I mounted a new Leupold VX3 4.5 - 14 using a one piece DNZ mount. This is not my first rifle. I bore sighted it by resting the rifle on sand bags, removing the bolt and centering the barrel and the cross hairs both on the target bulls eye @25 yards. First three shots completely off the paper. I noticed a bullet hole in the right side of the target frame (a pallet I had stapled cardboard to. This was at my farm). I had plenty of room so I stapled a pair of targets left and right and shot a three shot group which hit 17 inches to the right, still at 25 yards. Double checked all my mounting screws and adjusted windage to the left. There is only about 66 minutes of total windage adjustment in that scope. If it is centered that is 33 minutes on each side. 33 minutes is about 8 inches at 25 yards so I am 8 inches closer but still off the paper. Re bore sighted and rechecked the mount twice and shot again, same results. Tried different ammo, checked the torque on the bedding screws, tried a different scope, turned the one piece base around backwards (180 degrees front to back to see if that changed point of impact, it didn't), sent the rifle back to Savage, got it back three weeks later with notes they had checked everything and shot a one inch group at 100 yards with their scope and the stock attached to the rifle, they even cut out the group from the target and sent that. Remember I have tried two different scopes on the rifle. I put my scope back on and took the rifle to the range thinking now it is finally fixed. It is still throwing them off the target to the right. The range is a Missouri Conservation Department range and I have a friend there who are is an employee. One of his jobs is to help deer hunters sight in their rifles and he does a lot of them every year. He bore sighted the rifle with a regular bore sighter and shot it himself, same results. He said he had never seen anything like it. We got a second bench rest shooter who happened to be there to check it and try it. Same results and statement. No one can get it on the paper. Some times the rifle shoots a nice group, although off to the right, some times it scatters them. The action mounting screws have been triple checked for torque and the barrel passes the dollar bill test. The barrel bore visually appears straight. There are no visible burrs or problem with the muzzle crown. The spent brass is not deformed. The head space appears ok. The action appears to be in line with the bore. The only thing I have not checked is how well the barrel is threaded to the action.

 

[wielywilly-g]

I do not bore sight so I am unfamilar with how far that process can be off, but the group scattering sometimes could be your rifle looses level between shots and with the POA 17" from the POI, a slight tilt would result in way different POI.

Turning the base 180 is not proff it is good. If the base is pointing off to the left, spinning it 180 is still going to have it pointing off to the left. I think your base mounting holes are drilled wrong. Based on your POI, expect it to be about 0.018" off per inch so if the front and back mounting holes are 5" apart, that would be .090" off front to back compared to the side of the rail. That distance should be easy enough to see with a dial caliper.

 

[1slow01z71]

Mounted the scope on my 10/17HM2 and hit the range today. Got it sighted in to within an inch or two of a clay pigeon I was shooting at on the berm. Went to zoom it in and start shooting at an actual target to dial it in perfect and the damn thing wouldn't zoom in past about 8x. Ran the mag ring in and out, over and over again and nothing. Decided to see if I could even get it sighted in perfect and it would no longer take any adjustments to the turrets. They would turn but no change in POI. So it seems I got a bum scope from the get-go. It hasn't been dropped, and it was on a 17HMR and now on a 10/17HM2 so I know recoil didn't do anything to it. Very annoying to say the least. All my other scopes from them have been perfect and the glass on this scope for a 300 buck scope is awesome, just wish the dang thing worked.

So Ill be yanking it off and sending it in to Vortex along with a letter stating my annoyance with buying a product that was a dud out of the box. I believe once I get it back Im going to relegate it to load development since it has good magnification(when it worked) and most of my ARs have 10x or less power scopes/RDS.

I need some suggestions for a scope though for this gun. Im going to go back to the factory rings so it needs to be a 1" tube, preferably a subtension reticle, minimum high teens magnification and decent glass. Don't want to spend more than 500 as its just a plinker and fun gun when I go prairie dog hunting and tired of beating my shoulder up with the bigger guns.

 

[1slow01z71]

Received the scope back from Vortex today and I received a letter back stating "Tested and checked unit. All functions are normal and in good working order. Scope has full travel in all directions and is holding under impact. Could not duplicate any mounting issues. Replaced unit." They did in fact replace the scope as mine had a knick on the power mag ring from the bolt on the 17hmr so Im happy about that. From a little bit of searching it seems this is a standard response from vortex. I could maybe believe there was nothing wrong with the scope and that I or my rifle was at fault for the windage issue but I tried it on two different rifles with different rings. Not to mention without a doubt the scope lost its magnification ability past 8ish power. Maybe it got knocked around in shipping and whatever wasn't working worked by the time it got back to them but regardless I know I sent them a bum scope that was sent to me in non-working order. To their credit they did replace it no questions asked so Im happy. Just think its odd they sent a canned letter with it saying everything check out OK on my scope but they replaced it anyway. Not that it would've mattered if they told me what was wrong.

So all in all another positive review for their customer service, just a bit aggravating that I wasted a good chunk of shooting time chasing down a bum scope. Ill still purchase Vortex products(just bought a 4-16PST last week).

 

[sarge7174]

I had this same problem with a Rem700 a couple of years back. It was caused by the mount holes being drilled off center,front to back. I tried every fix I knew about,including the Burris adjustable rings,to no avail. The fix was a set of adjustable rings from Control,a shop out of Texas. Pricey,but they worked perfect.

 

[darth_ritis]

the damn thing wouldn't zoom in past about 8x

I received a letter back stating "Tested and checked unit. All functions are normal and in good working order. Scope has full travel in all directions and is holding under impact. Could not duplicate any mounting issues. Replaced unit."

Could it be that the rings are too tight, causing binding in the zoom and maybe even throwing the aim out of alignment? Purely a guess here, I don't know if it's possible to cause a POI problem that way, but the zoom binding made me think of over-tightened rings.

 

[wildbill38]

Try Burris they make rings with different offsets

 

[1slow01z71]

I had this same problem with a Rem700 a couple of years back. It was caused by the mount holes being drilled off center,front to back. I tried every fix I knew about,including the Burris adjustable rings,to no avail. The fix was a set of adjustable rings from Control,a shop out of Texas. Pricey,but they worked perfect.

Tried it on two different rifles that worked fine with the previous scopes on them as well as two different sets of rings. The scope was thw problem.

Could it be that the rings are too tight, causing binding in the zoom and maybe even throwing the aim out of alignment? Purely a guess here, I don't know if it's possible to cause a POI problem that way, but the zoom binding made me think of over-tightened rings.

Still wouldnt work after I took it off. The ruger rings make it pretty hard to over tighten them. If either set of rings was that tight there wouldve atleast been ring marks on the tube and there really wasnt. Just the normal very slight change in the matte finish.

Try Burris they make rings with different offsets

I fully believe the scope was thw problem due to the magnification problem and trying it on two different rifles with two different sets of rings. Ive got the new scope mounted and ready to try out sunday. Ill report back.