Just my thoughts on how the driver should have reacted.
- Thread starter Slapchop
- Start date
Yeah, but you are forgetting the obvious. If it was in a state with legal CCW they would have had guns too. Sure, you could kill the guy or two right outside your door. Then your RR would be filled with lead.
The only way this could have turned out better for the RR driver would have been if he stayed on the freeway till the cops took over. Getting in a shootout would only have gotten a couple bikers and his whole family killed.
I think you overestimate the courage of cockroaches. Shoot the first one swinging a helmet and the others instinctively scatter, giving the driver time to find an escape route. Even scum sucking bottom feeders aren't in a hurry to visit hell.
Of course, if you're french, I guess surrender is the best (and most popular) option.
Of course, if you're french, I guess surrender is the best (and most popular) option.
Are you willing to bet your life on that?
Who said anything about surrender? You're just making shit up so you can use a snappy retort.
Well, I guess there would be three choices:
1) Use aggression to try to escape.
2) Take no action and hope they don't murder me and my family.
3) Dial 911 and pray.
Anyone in that situation would have to make his or her own decision.
Anytime force is countered with force the chance of escalation is always a possibility.
1) Use aggression to try to escape.
2) Take no action and hope they don't murder me and my family.
3) Dial 911 and pray.
Anyone in that situation would have to make his or her own decision.
Anytime force is countered with force the chance of escalation is always a possibility.
This makes more sense than anything, decide what YOU do based on YOUR situation.
...Sirs, all of yours seems to me dangerously prone to draw the guns or perform others unfair solutions : follow this advice: keep in your glove's compartement a friendly rugby team, and try to yawn some "pfft..."_
I will be sittin'at some distance, with a pack of cigarettes, to learn and enjoy the show_
Been gone for a bit and won't take the time to read everything that has been posted since, but I disagree with both statements. The highway is not a controlled environment in the sense of being somewhere a motorcyclist can push the limits of his skills in a manner which is less likely to endanger himself and others. Where are the cornerworkers? Where is the separation of vehicles into classes or riding/driving ability level? Where are there limits on entrance/exit from the riding area? Those are not all necessary for a controlled environment, but are examples of features that help provide one.
Speeding in formation with a large MC group does not involve the same level of skill as does racing, or even normal instructional track day riding. Those guys in the videos are rolling in a cluster, no consistency, no lines or lanes to speak of - it's frankly a testament to how little skill is involved because if they tried that through any kind of turn that required braking on entry, body position, and throttle control, I am guessing 90% of them would be toast. There's no precision to what they are doing because they are all over the place. There is certainly risk, but that by no means determines the level of skill involved. More than that, it mostly just shows that a lot of them are lucky, and it's really not all that hard when you get down to it. Furthermore, just because it's risky doesn't mean they are brave for doing it. Some people are just unaware or unwilling to consider risk. I'd wager most of those guys are pretty sure "it won't happen to them." And yes, there are some guys in the group that have pretty good bike control because they have practiced stunting and ride a lot, but again, think about how much better they could be at stunting or riding like a hooligan if they actually did it in a professional manner.
This is what I think of when I think stunting:
One out of Billion Girls - Sarah Lezito - YouTube
Unfortunately that did not work in the case of these two British soldiers.Corporals Wood and Howes killed by IRA 1988 - YouTube
If the word "hooligan" it's used in the same way I mean (in Italy "hooligans" are the most disgusting soccer fans) I agree: the bunch in the video seems at their level of behaviour, and both don't deserve better, in my book_ as you say, a lot of them are lucky: lucky until someone of them would perform the last stunt under another vehicle, or have the count settled via an iron bar,if not a gun_
my garage's buddy performed "his" last stunt rodeoing a quite sharp guard-rail, dying after not more than 5min, thank to a cutted phemural artheria (our mountain roads aren't Laguna Seca), playin'whith his last gen.rocket : end of luck/period_
my statement about public roads, if you pay attention, says that if/when you go down, you're dead meat : that's THE different rule, well before the road signals, the traffic cops or the TT Marshalls_ sayin'this I don't condone putting in peril nor harassing other road users, whatever you drive,ride,etc._
as biker, if/when I (or someone other) put myself at risk when I ride, I know that my main problem will not be some scratched paint: it could be passing in a wheelchair my next years, if any, therefore personally I try to think & behave consequently_
About speedin'in formation,etc.: please,will consider with more attention my words, even bein'free to disagree,of course_
I hope you can understand my words despite my grammar, but I'm available to explain better,if needed, here or by pm, too_
Best Regards
You can't carry in NYC. If you have a permit your firearm has the be locked in the trunk with ammo locked separately and only then if you are driving to/from the range. That's the problem, you have no practical right to self defence in NYC and anyone bigger, badder or more angry than you knows that - open season for bullies and thugs. If you shoot anyone in that scenario it isn't going to end well. Politicians would rather you become a statistic than break the law to save your family. Just having the right to carry might have helped avoid this situation, it certainly ought to make any sane person recognise the downside risk from threatening and attacking someone and their family.
As a side comment I'm surprised by NYPD doing nothing, they usually love cutting loose a few dozen rounds per target.
Probably didn't want to risk hitting one of their own.
New York road-rage incident: Three NYPD cops took part in motorcycle ride - CBS News
Wiley,
I totally understand where you are coming from on the assumption of risk, and that it is much more dangerous for us motorcyclists on the road. Just because I assume that risk doesn't mean I have appreciably more skill than the average joe. With practice, I think most drivers could get to the point where they could ride a motorcycle in formation and swerve in and out of traffic. The reason I hate seeing videos like these and that I get mad at people that ride like this are two-fold. One, it smears the entire motorcycle community and puts every rider at even greater risk, because some drivers will assume that all motorcyclists are like that, and maybe that driver makes a poor decision based on that assumption and drives too defensively around/through a motorcyclist who may have also made an otherwise non-fatal mistake. Two, it shows a complete lack of regard for others and further develops the entitlement attitude that many people have (I include myself here - I get all frustrated when I'm not given what I want, too).
I feel bad for everyone involved - yes, that includes the riders. They weren't raised to value other people, and they are limited in their empathy as a result. They are raised to think that a family is a mob that only cares about alphas - who is stronger, better looking, faster, etc. Consequently, they have legitimate fears and no means of support. The result is that they act like cowards and thugs. It's sad - also makes me mad, but when I sit back and ponder, I feel more sorry for them. What hope do they have of getting out of that destructive mindset? Destructive for them and others?
When I let my anger subside and really consider things - those riders are people, too, and I wonder if there's a way to help them. What to do? I don't think it involves propping up their already overdeveloped egos.
Here, fixed it for you. There are four choices.
IMO a firearm is to be used as a “last defense” if at all possible. Not because I necessarily care about the dirtbag, but because if you use said firearm you will most likely be in court for the rest of your life and come out the other end broke, even if you "win".
No, you do not have an obligation to flee (or shouldn’t). But that doesn’t mean it may be the best course of action.
The "cowboys" on here that are all too ready to shoot it out worry me.
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to TNT :
for me, riding defensively is the key-word, being well aware of the harsh consequences of doing/thinking otherwise_ on the the road, this has worked for me, riding alone or among well respected Bikers_
(speedin'in formation it's a form of not-so-easy and quite disciplined defensive ride, because you're not a tiny point on someone's rear mirror, but an entire group of the dimension of a freight-train, therefore more seeable/recognizable from other road users)_
Creating danger or reenactin'Hollister2013 it's another thing_
whitout deepening in any moral issue, the video's brake checking has the same sense as dancing&rapping at the business end of an obstile mg nest : it's the wrong thing to do, more even wrong if I would be the gunner _
I agree that all the involved are people but, again w/out goin'moral here, if some people's choice it's the hard way, the same people must be prepared to the related consequences_ if they have learned how behave from the A-Team tv series, they are wrong and, with all my respect for the Christian Faith in the Miracles, I've never seen an amputee comin' back from Lourdes with his OEM legs, not even on tv_
for me, riding defensively is the key-word, being well aware of the harsh consequences of doing/thinking otherwise_ on the the road, this has worked for me, riding alone or among well respected Bikers_
(speedin'in formation it's a form of not-so-easy and quite disciplined defensive ride, because you're not a tiny point on someone's rear mirror, but an entire group of the dimension of a freight-train, therefore more seeable/recognizable from other road users)_
Creating danger or reenactin'Hollister2013 it's another thing_
whitout deepening in any moral issue, the video's brake checking has the same sense as dancing&rapping at the business end of an obstile mg nest : it's the wrong thing to do, more even wrong if I would be the gunner _
I agree that all the involved are people but, again w/out goin'moral here, if some people's choice it's the hard way, the same people must be prepared to the related consequences_ if they have learned how behave from the A-Team tv series, they are wrong and, with all my respect for the Christian Faith in the Miracles, I've never seen an amputee comin' back from Lourdes with his OEM legs, not even on tv_
Good summation of all the arrests, so far.
Cops arrest biker who allegedly bashed window of Manhattan dad's SUV with helmet - NY Daily News
The best comment:
Also being questioned by police Saturday was Kevin Bresloff, the biker who filmed the viral video on his helmet cam.
Attorney Andrew Vecere said Bresloff was a cooperating witness — not a suspect.
“He does not know the bikers that are being charged with the crime,” Vecere said. “He did not ride with them.”
Cops arrest biker who allegedly bashed window of Manhattan dad's SUV with helmet - NY Daily News
The best comment:
Also being questioned by police Saturday was Kevin Bresloff, the biker who filmed the viral video on his helmet cam.
Attorney Andrew Vecere said Bresloff was a cooperating witness — not a suspect.
“He does not know the bikers that are being charged with the crime,” Vecere said. “He did not ride with them.”
I do not think the SUV driver should have used a gun if he had had one. In the end his wife and child were unharmed and while he was beaten and needed a few stitches, it seems that he will have little permanent damage. Legally, you should only shoot someone to protect yourself or another from imminent (and otherwise unavoidable) danger of grave bodily harm.
Those who advocate preemptively shooting everyone who demonstrates anger towards them---well if they routinely go armed, I think they should reconsider that.
Yeah, the bikers were all assholes. Where in America is it open season on assholes? What if one of the undercover cops on the scene had shot you? What if you had shot the undercover cop? What if you hit a bystander?
Those who advocate preemptively shooting everyone who demonstrates anger towards them---well if they routinely go armed, I think they should reconsider that.
Yeah, the bikers were all assholes. Where in America is it open season on assholes? What if one of the undercover cops on the scene had shot you? What if you had shot the undercover cop? What if you hit a bystander?
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Honorable Mention:
Allen Edwards, 42, of Queens, was seen hitting the Range Rover with his hands but there is no indication he participated in the beating and he actually may have tried to help the SUV driver, sources told NBC New York.
Because you automatically know whether they are going to beat you to death, or only almost beat you to death? That's a little ridiculous.
That individual was an undercover cop who stated he could not blow his cover. My question is this:
At what point, in what kind of situation should he have blown his cover?
Any opinion I have of this shall wait for further education from someone who would know a bit about UC work
Slapchop, don't hang your head in shame, it wasn't you, but members of the Blue Line who failed you.
Use this as a learning experience that not ALL that wear the Badge are good just because they wear that Badge but lack the honor to do so.
Also, think about this when someone who has worked with and around LEOs has some type of criticism or a bad story to tell that they were involved with or a witness of.
Hold your head high and right the wrongs from within.
Regards, FM
Use this as a learning experience that not ALL that wear the Badge are good just because they wear that Badge but lack the honor to do so.
Also, think about this when someone who has worked with and around LEOs has some type of criticism or a bad story to tell that they were involved with or a witness of.
Hold your head high and right the wrongs from within.
Regards, FM
Judge Jeanine Pirro on the bikers:
Judge Jeanine Pirro - Opening Statement - The Rise Of Lawlessness - 10/5/13 - YouTube
Judge Jeanine Pirro - Opening Statement - The Rise Of Lawlessness - 10/5/13 - YouTube
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A lot of "what ifs?" there. Even if you're a complete moron with a gun, you should be able to point and shoot 1 foot away and hit the guy beating your window in with a helmet. There was no promise that the bikers would have stopped short of murdering the guy. NY is a fucked up state for gun rights, no doubt about it. The fact that you're from NY and are saying he shouldn't have shot anyone speaks volumes. That's not meant as an insult; but a comment on the vast societal differences between different areas of the country.
You're right about when someone is allowed to use deadly force. However, you fail to mention that you can protect yourself when you are in fear of imminent death or severe bodily harm. Similarly, you can defend someone else if they meet the same criteria. In court, you have to prove that the average person would have felt at risk in the same situation.
I don't know about you, but I'm not Rambo. I took a Karate class when I was 5, but I'd venture I've forgotten a little since that one class. He had every right and reason to use a gun to defend himself.
That said, one cannot possibly hope to think that there weren't several others in that pack of idiots that were also carrying. If he had shot to defend himself, he likely would have wound up killed along with his wife and child.
There's nothing preemptive about shooting the guy beating in your window with a motorcycle helmet. That's 100% reactionary. It's not like people are saying to shoot motorcycle riders that brake-check you. No one is advocating "open season on assholes."
Your post comes off way too pacifist for my tastes. Saying, "oh well... he only got his ass beat in front of his wife and child and needed some stitches... his wife and child didn't end up being harmed... no real harm done" is idiotic. At what point was he supposed to know how that was going to turn out? I doubt he was thinking "Alright... should be stopping soon... definitely wouldn't want a gun to defend myself..."
You cannot expect someone in that situation to presume he won't be dead in thirty seconds.
And why would the undercover cop shoot at the driver after watching a biker smash his window in?
Also, a gun is used to stop the threat, not kill the threat.
Yeah, he helped him by beating on the vehicle in a gang assault. That only serves to rile up the rest. Piece of shit was part and parcel but didn't wanna get too deep. I think he didn't want to report it because he'd be kicked out of the gang and found out as a cop, but when he figured he was gonna get rounded up in it, didn't want to be part of the gang anymore. Because his cover sure as shit is blown now, isn't it?
So yeah, exactly what point DOES Serpico blow his cover to protect and serve? Sure as shit wasn't to save this guy's life.
Last night, five shit stains attacked and stabbed and killed a Ft. Lewis soldier not far from here. Killed him because he was white. Cops weren't there to help him either. They showed up too late there too. I think they're a good shoulder to cry on if you need one after the fact, but if you need someone to cover your ass in the meantime, you're gonna need a friend.
PS, I'd only hang my head if I sympathized with them. Otherwise, stand tall and spit in their faces.
I was a trucker for many years.I carried a gun in all 49 states with out a permit, all of NY state and every part of NYC.It is a hard decision but some areas are too dangerous to be in with out a gun.I was glad I had it several times but I do not want to go into details at this time.
Bet it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall at staff meetings for the various police precincts around the NYC area.
From some of the reports it sounds like the law has been turning a blind eye towards the cycle mobs (don't want to elevate them to gang status). That could just be media reporting the hilights rather than giving details but that is how it comes across to me.
Negative national media attention has a way of getting the attention of the LE, at least in the short term.
From some of the reports it sounds like the law has been turning a blind eye towards the cycle mobs (don't want to elevate them to gang status). That could just be media reporting the hilights rather than giving details but that is how it comes across to me.
Negative national media attention has a way of getting the attention of the LE, at least in the short term.
Add the hits just keep on coming.
Undercover cop seen on video attacking SUV - Investigations
Under Cover wasn't just a witness, he was a participant.
Undercover cop seen on video attacking SUV - Investigations
Under Cover wasn't just a witness, he was a participant.
Guess that would be one way to blow your cover.
Fired. Press charges for damage to property, make sure he can never be an officer again but don't publicly out him. That could jeprodize his families safety. My 2 cents.
Like he did to the guys family in the SUV.
Fuck him, he should be made to swallow his own medicine. Let him feel what the Range Rover occupants felt.
Him, yeah. An ass beating wouldn't hurt my feelings. His family is innocent, just like the Range Rover drivers family. A little sense guys. You wouldn't want your family paying for any mistakes you've made. Fuck the UO, yeah not his kids.
Bikers that now know he was under cover maybe? The man that trains my guard dogs was an under cover officer for 20 years. He said the day he quit was when a felon he'd put away saw him and his son going into a grocery store. The man had gotten out of the pen, saw them, looked at his son and said 'ohhhhh, ok'. That's when he quit and moved away. I know that's not the same as this officers situation. Just trying to show an example of what these families to through.
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I think he should have acted way more violently and never gotten off the freeway.
Oops................
They arrested the five but I was totally not expecting them to be fellow Soldiers.
Sugarbug you make many good points. Still, had I been the driver of the SUV, and my wife and kids were in the car, and I became embroiled in a road rage incident with many motorcyclists, and I felt my family lives were in jeopardy what would I do?
Stop the vehicle, jump out pulling my XD .45 (which I am licensed to carry) with seven rounds in the mag and face down a hundred bikers. An unknown number of which may be police. Many of which may be armed. If I feared for the life of my children to do this would be against everything I believe. I would not give up the more effective weapon to be able to use a gun "like a man" I would use my vehicle. In my case it would not be a Range Rover it would be a Ford F350 Diesel 4WD. While my truck remained operable I would be a moving and erratic target. knocking down Bikes like bowling pins.
Truthfully this driver did not look that much stupider than me, and he did not have a .45 with even my measly seven rounds, why did he stop. Why not just back up over as many of them as necessary? Perhaps he did not feel that his life was in danger.
That said, should you come to NY and have to defend your family against hooligans, I am not going to criticize your tactics. Do the best you can and god bless ya.
Right. I was only saying he had every right to shoot to defend himself and his family if he had the means to. Prosecution would be very hard-pressed to prove that any rational person wouldn't feel the same way.
He had the right, BUT I think if he did stop and start shooting, he would have gotten himself and likely his wife and/or child killed as well. Crappy situation all around. He definitely should have called police and stayed on the highway. As "badass" as those riders were, they knew they couldn't do anything while he was moving.
They are built, not bought. These are made, one at a time, and given as gifts. They are usually either the color of the bike, or the club(MC) colors. When you are riding solo, and you go into 'patch' turf or other vehicles get too close, it is usually just simply twirled in the breeze a bit. It sends a message that damage may happen to you or your ride if you do not get back. Other bikers see it and they maintain normal distance as a courtesy.
Sure, we can carry 45's and 357's, or even AR's or M14's in scabbards, but carrying stuff that is found on the side of the road, well, so your cage gets afu from a old spark plug or a lost bolt, try proving where it came from. It's a he said she said thing, besides, if my hand was hanging down by the side of my bike, how do you know I let something go and you didn't just find an errant bolt of something in the road?
I of course would not expect anyone who has never ridden a motorcycle, or ridden in rain, snow, sleet day after day, year after year to understand these things. Fact is, you can't, because you have not BTDT. You (generalizing to all who have not BTDT) freely make comment on things you have not done, places you have not been, and as such, make worthless words that have no real impact on anything but humor, or sarcasm, at best. Until you have ridden 1000 miles on my bike in my boots, in rain, sleet and snow, your words are meaningless, lack value, and are both invalid and unsound because they lack solid reference. Fact is, bottom line, me, people like me, we are just guys who, when you look into our eyes usually see something there that either you recognize, or you don't. The slicked back hair, leather jacket, tattoos, grungy boots and quik wit usually make you wonder just WTF this person is really about. The obvious military swagger as some call it, the look that goes right through you, and the look that says, come on ahead, screw with me, go ahead, try it, see what happens is suually is more than enough to make you keep your distance, but the funny thing? The real funny thing? Sweet, little co-eds, YOUR daughters, walk right up grab the lapels of the jacket, and say things like,"Oohh, your jacket is so cool, can I wear it?", or "Hi, I saw you the other day, and just wanted to know your name" or,"You don't look so scary, you look like you need a hug" Sheeeiiit, I'll take that stuff from your daughters at school. My neighbor says it's a good thing...until I remind him HIS step daughter goes to the same college
If you can see me laughing my ass off right now as you read this, you maybe didn't miss it. If your panties are all bunched up, well son, you got more issues than a thin skin can handle don't ya?
This has to be one of the most asinine, ridiculous and outright retarded things I have ever read.......just to encapsulate the above statement: we brandish weapons in order to warn off/physically threaten fellow riders/drivers on the shared roadway and demand that we receive the respect we actively deny to others. Second, you should heed my warnings because I actively practice sound judgement by riding in weather deemed dangerous to travel in on a two wheeled vehicle and then brag about it on the Internet (I presume that this level of analytic thought is paired with your "quik wit"). Third, I have a "military swagger" that I use on College campuses to impress co-eds (read: daughters of my "friends") who are either naive enough to believe that your Danny Zuko costume really "sets you apart from the pack" or to disguise the fact that those in your own age category see you as either delusional or mildly retarded. Of course, I have not "ridden a thousand miles in your shoes" but I have also never participated in bestiality either and I am pretty sure that the lack of experience in either arena does not preclude me from arriving at the idea that your train of thought is a bad one. My advice....share the road, not your thoughts; one provides value for the tax dollar and the other has certainly had tax dollars wasted in the vain pursuit of improving it.
Just read that one of the "Bikers" was a cop. He has been arrested.
welcome to the party
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