Real silly academic question here. I’ve been shooting since I could basically walk. I have a core group of friends that I do some lr shooting with and this last weekend we all noticed that our rifles seem to recoil significantly more than what we see most of the time when we watch elr or lrp matches. I shoot a Howa M1500 with a 24” barreled 6.5cm with mb and another shoots same rifle in .308. We both shoot off bipods. Could this be our mistakes?
Advanced Marksmanship Recoil management?
- Thread starter shooter98
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Hard to say without seeing a video of what you are experiencing. Do you guys run high quality brakes on your rifles? 6.5cm out of a 24" barrel with a great brake is a pussy cat, in my experience.
Those muzzle brakes are for fags. You need a recoil control bipod.
are you loading the bipod?
all brakes are not equal
precisionrifleblog.com
all brakes are not equal
Muzzle Brakes: Ability To Stay On Target
One important aspect of a muzzle brake is helping the rifle stay on target. In fact, I was discussin...
precisionrifleblog.com I bought bags and am going to remove the bipod. I think that might work much better for me.
If wood bench, talons digging into the wood
Is there a certain standard for spotting impacts and recoil control that would be considered adequate for precision rifle field style matches?
From a stable position like prone? What yardage range should you be seeing your impacts through the scope?
Same from an unstable position like off a fence post, tree branch/limb, or barricade, or whatever; what would be a good standard as far as how many yards where you should be seeing your impacts through the scope?
From a stable position like prone? What yardage range should you be seeing your impacts through the scope?
Same from an unstable position like off a fence post, tree branch/limb, or barricade, or whatever; what would be a good standard as far as how many yards where you should be seeing your impacts through the scope?
Would it be possible on your bench to clamp a 2x4 or a furring strip along the front edge of the bench to load the bipod up against?
rarely shoot steel inside 300 yds, but at 300 and out, you should be able to see everything from anything pretty much
technically i can see bullets hit paper at 100, but sometimes its hard to pick out a bullet hole while the rifle/sight picture is still vibrating unless the target is light color so the bullet hole stands out
This.
I always se my hits.
I had to change the way I shoot from what I was taught to do so.
One thing to remember about ELR and PRS guns is they are tools designed for a task.
Usually quite heavy.
Many PRS rifles are especially heavy for the caliber they shoot.
It is possible and I did screw down a 1x2 fitting strip last night. Getting behind the gun I am now able to really drive the gun into the pod legs. It should make a world of difference. My shooting bags are supposed to be in today and so I’ll be trying that as well. Thank you guys for the great info and not making me feel stupid.
Every yardage.
As to the OP I don't think bags in lieu of a bipod will be helpful. Adding a bag in the rear where there was none will help a lot.
You don't have to push the rifle sliding forward to load it, just take any slack out. Soft rubber feet help.
Loading the bipod is not going to fix it IMO and will likely make it worse. If your rifle is hopping it is bouncing off of something. That something is your rigid shoulder. Relax your shoulder and pull into it with your bicep only. It can be a tricky thing to pull with your bicep while keeping the shoulder relaxed.
If your shoulder is relaxed it will absorb and transfer the recoil to the rest of your body rather than reflecting it back into the rifle and causing it to hop. I shoot 300 Norma Mag unbraked sometimes and there is no hop at all and I can see hits starting at 200-300. I can see the dirt flying at 100 when shooting paper but no way to pick up a bullet hole with that much recoil happening.
If your shoulder is relaxed it will absorb and transfer the recoil to the rest of your body rather than reflecting it back into the rifle and causing it to hop. I shoot 300 Norma Mag unbraked sometimes and there is no hop at all and I can see hits starting at 200-300. I can see the dirt flying at 100 when shooting paper but no way to pick up a bullet hole with that much recoil happening.
Also, have you considered weight of your rigs vs the ones you see being shot at the matches you watch?
I recently had a pretty humbling experience with this... I have a rebarreled (26" Heavy Palma) tikka in a Heavy Chassis that weighs 19.6lbs and I built a tl3 in a manners that weighs 14.8 (both 6.5 creedmoor) and after shooting the tikka exclusively for the last year i guess i got lazy with my recoil management.
The tikka is a HAMMER i mean .3s all day concentrate hard .2s and every now and then .1s!!
Starting shooting the tl3 and .7s was all i could do then I went back to the fundamentals and slowed down and payed attention to my setup and they started shrinking .5s and .4s started showing up.
I actually believe the tl3 is as accurate as the tikka its just not as easy to do it without superb fundamentals.
My point is 4-5lbs lighter made a lot bigger difference in recoil than i was expecting!!
Great video...That is an excellent show of good recoil management.
Tripods add another factor in too. I really like shooting from them.
Im not saying you cant spot hits close range for sure. Believe it or not, in my opinion anyway, spotting hits and looking for another .1 or .2 in groups once you get down to 1/2 moa are a little different, it takes very good recoil management and heavier guns are more forgiving for sure.
Yea, dirt at close range is hard to tell exactly also because it blows such a big blast, even seeing it happen can still be off .5 mil from where the center of the splash was
I'm just gonna leave these here...........
Just because you're been shooting since you could walk doesn't mean you ever learned to do it all correctly
Just because you're been shooting since you could walk doesn't mean you ever learned to do it all correctly
This is a 6.5 pushing a 147eld around 2850. It’s suppressed but that actually adds recoil on this rifle IMO. It looks like a 22lr when I shoot it but that’s the point of showing it to you.
Watch my right bicep pull in once I get settled. Then watch my whole torso move with the recoil. The energy from the recoil is being used to move 180lbs. That makes a decent amount of recoil energy look pretty minuscule. If my shoulder wasn’t completely relaxed my body would not move and the rifle would bounce off of my shoulder and hop, ask me how I know lol. The key for me is having the rifle be part of me(pulling in with bicep) and a completely relaxed shoulder. That lets the recoil travel through you rather than bouncing off of you. Obviously there are other fundamentals at play but those were the light bulb moments for me as I progressed over the years.
Watch my right bicep pull in once I get settled. Then watch my whole torso move with the recoil. The energy from the recoil is being used to move 180lbs. That makes a decent amount of recoil energy look pretty minuscule. If my shoulder wasn’t completely relaxed my body would not move and the rifle would bounce off of my shoulder and hop, ask me how I know lol. The key for me is having the rifle be part of me(pulling in with bicep) and a completely relaxed shoulder. That lets the recoil travel through you rather than bouncing off of you. Obviously there are other fundamentals at play but those were the light bulb moments for me as I progressed over the years.
Man the shoulder relaxing is huge! Oddly enough someone showed me this last Friday and it was one of the biggest a ha moments ever....so funny to read a thread on it now. I had been taught to be like a brick wall behind the stock, to hike up my trap to get as much behind it as possible and then don't budge just be like a wall. Relaxing my shoulder/pulling in with bicep for some reason not known to me at the moment gave me the best groups I've ever shot in my life as well. Guessing overall relaxation and better interface with trigger/mechanics.
Thats part of it but the more important reason is consistency IMO. When the rifle recoils through you it does it the same every time. When it recoils off of you it will never do it the same way twice.
that makes sense
D
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Recoil management is a thing for old people. Today, you want a brake with an evil name or a recoil reduction system designed by Tucker with a free blowup doll.
260 with one hand holding the phone for video.
No blow up dolls were harmed or soiled making this video
No blow up dolls were harmed or soiled making this video
+1
One of my breakthrough moments came when I realized that the rifle needed to be pulled into my shoulder (either through loading the bipod or through drawing it back with the strong hand arm muscles like you show) but completely relaxing the rest of my body.
I literally make my shoulders go limp right before I start pressing the trigger. I want to feel my shoulder sink down to the earth to be completely relaxed.
Stiff shoulders/back/chest muscles is like placing the butt against concrete and pulling the trigger. The rifle bounces right off.
Interesting form and something I want to try. Question though, is the butt stock of the rifle on your collarbone? That would seem to create a hard surface to recoil against vs. just underneath against the pectoral muscle.
IMO If you are truly square to the rifle it is going to get into the collar bone some. That's why most people naturally want to lay with their body angled to the strong side. That feels more natural because it puts the stock more in the meaty part of the shoulder. Lift your arm straight out in front of you and rest it on something so your shoulder is not flexed then take your other hand and feel the pocket out toward the end of the collar bone. That's kind of where it sits on me. As long as you are completely relaxed with the rifle pulled in tight it is not going to bounce off. The tricky part is staying relaxed while pulling the rifle in. You have to really isolate the bicep and make sure that's the only muscle being used. If you watch that video close you can see my bicep pulling in before the shots.
If your using a Harris bipods it might be a good idea to try something else. There are a lot of better options available that are a bit easier to shoot with.
Unless you’re tensing your body up, your body will move with the recoil. Bone might be hard, but we aren’t immovable like a wall.
For recoil sake, we don’t have any “hard” surfaces on our body unless you tense up tight.
When on the bench you are probably shooting free recoil without knowing it . A video of you shooting would help a lot . A guy I helped in Germany the last problem turned out to be a really weak flimsy bench but I never saw that until he had sent me photos of his technique at the bench . He was doing all kinds of things wrong that only a picture showed . When you shoot prone more of your body weight is directly behind the gun . When you shoot on a bench the body is pivoting on your hips far less resistance to recoil . A bench is hard and bi-pods can jump more than on softer dirt surface . I have noticed that myself that a proper BR front rest with a bag is more accurate than a bi-pod on a hard bench .
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The reason the bipod hops on a bench is the same reason it hops any time. The recoil energy is being reflected rather than absorbed. People tend to shoulder the rifle and tense up more at the bench because of body position. If you are looking to improve my suggestion would be to stay standing and lean over the bench at the hips so you are 1/2 prone on it. While using a Benchrest set up can help take you out of the equation to shoot a small group but it is doing nothing for you in terms of improving.
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I think that’s my take-away from your post and the video posted by Precision Underground. I’m tense in anticipation of the noise/ recoil and the shoulders are becoming a hard surface to recoil against.
Great post! I was up at Sheepdog warrior yesterday shooting my .308 off a bench. I was having the bipod hop. It wasn't as bad as it was before I started loading it. I can't wait till next weekend to work on relaxing my shoulder and pulling it in with my bicep.
So you basically agree with what I said so why the post to me and not the OP ? At some ranges it's not allowed to stand at a bench . I doubt very much that the only real mistake is body tensing . I bet his basic bench technique and setup has flaws .
Those videos of suppressed shooting seems like very low recoil rounds to me . Try it with full power 300 RUM .
I posted what the round was- 147g at 2850. That's not a donkey but not exactly low recoil. The whole point of posting it was to show controlled recoil so I appreciate it! How about some 300 Norma mag burning 92 grains of powder at 1950 yards? Will that work?
Still have a little work to do with this one but you can see that the recoil is fairly well controlled. Look close and you will see the impacts- one right, one left, then a hit. The wind was switching down and right @8-10 if I remember correctly. Plate is 20x40 so 1moa horizontal at 1950. Both misses were good vertically.
I have been hesitant to hook my iphone to this rifle because I don't want to break it but I'm putting it on next time to get a view of the recoil control in the scope.
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Thank you sir. Remember there are other fundamentals at play as well. Being square to the rifle being a big one. If you allow the recoil to move you but are not square the rifle isn’t going to return to its starting position after moving you.
Lets say I have this friend with a recoil management problem.
Ok . Lol . Lets say it is me.
I think my boney shoulder may be causing recoil to bounce and inconcistant bounce at that.
Shows up even with low recoil 223, and 6.5g from the same lower.
Was wondering if a large soft recoil pad would help.
Recoil is not bothering me and on most of my bolt guns there is a big pad
and do not notice a bounce.
Stock is magpull crt and it has a rubber pad.
Ok . Lol . Lets say it is me.
I think my boney shoulder may be causing recoil to bounce and inconcistant bounce at that.
Shows up even with low recoil 223, and 6.5g from the same lower.
Was wondering if a large soft recoil pad would help.
Recoil is not bothering me and on most of my bolt guns there is a big pad
and do not notice a bounce.
Stock is magpull crt and it has a rubber pad.
I've got a fairly bony shoulder myself but as long a the muscles attached to it are relaxed I am gtg. A pad will help but my suggestion would be to fix it without the pad first. I shoot 300 Norma unbraked a lot and it reminds me very quickly if I am not doing something right. It is a good tool to test myself. Once I got that gun under control everything else seems like a walk in the park.
Are you prone or on a bench?
Mostly bench for practice / load development. If I pull in hard it causes poor groups. If I nearly free recoil it causes poor groups and can't see impact / scope comes off target.
Have read and tried many changes and had spotters watch for flaws, not nailed down yet.
I can shoot sub moa with several different rifles but can still see and feel it hapening.
Get 4 of 5 shots touching but always get the 1 flyer even in a 1moa or less group.
Have read and tried many changes and had spotters watch for flaws, not nailed down yet.
I can shoot sub moa with several different rifles but can still see and feel it hapening.
Get 4 of 5 shots touching but always get the 1 flyer even in a 1moa or less group.
I can’t stand bench shooting. It’s an extremely awkward way to shoot a rifle and be able to control recoil IMO. Really it’s an awkward way to shoot a rifle at all unless you turn your shoulders completely sideways to the target. It’s like trying to do something semi-athletic from a barstool, not a good combo. If I have to shoot from a bench I stand and lean over it for a modified prone position.
I'm going to need to have someone video tape me but I couldn't get this right today. Shooting a 20" 308 unbraked, resting the rifle on my collar bone, so my head is coming straight down. Shooting at a 100 yard target, and repeatable, everytime it looks like the rifle moves down and to the right, so my point of aim will move 6mil to the left, and about 1mil up, so not much down movement, but a lot of right movement of the butt stock. It doesn't feel like my rifle is bouncing off of me, but maybe my NPOA is off. I am trying my best to relax my shoulder/back and only use my bicep. After I shot it, I was very careful to move my entire body as I moved the rifle back on target, and that kind of helped, which makes me feel like it's a NPOA issue, but I am not sure how to check NPOA. When I unload the rifle, it stays on target, when I dry fire it stays on target. When it actual recoils, it does not stay on target.
I'll go out again and have my partner video me to see what the issue is...
It’s not something you just get in one day unless you have someone standing over you putting you in the right position and coaching you. This is where classes can be helpful and time saving. If your stock is moving down and right you are probably putting too much cheek pressure on it. IMO you want more bicep pressure pulling straight back than you want cheek pressure pushing down. That way the stock doesn’t get pushed down and right during recoil.
NPA is huge. Don’t try to put the rifle on your collar bone, just let it land where it lands with a bicep pulling straight back into a relaxed shoulder while straight behind the rifle. Learning this can be done at home drynfiring.
I used to take my shooting mat and line it up straight toward a pasty on the wall. That gives you a good visual of what straight to the target is. Then I would practice lining the rifle up straight on the mat, laying straight on the mat, then pulling in with bicep and landing the reticle in the pasty. Once you get straight on the rifle and the get rifle/body connection right you can learn to adjust your body to adjust your aim. I did this for hours at home.
Watch how after I lay down I shift my hips/feet/torso around. I think I counted 10 times. First big movements then tiny shifts/adjustments. I’m pulling straight back on the rifle and then adjusting my feet/hips/body to adjust the aim so the reticle is on target. I had no idea I shifted around that much until I videoed with the drone last weekend. It is 100% subconscious now. It’s just how I adjust my aim. Once I get NPA correct I can shoot 100 times and not have to move my body at all. Dont lay down and then steer the rifle on target with the bag or your shoulder or your hand. The rifle is part of you. Connect it to you (correctly)and then adjust your body until it is on target.
That I can do! I did a lot of dry firing at home setting up my rifle with the eye relief, cheek piece as I moved my position of the rifle from my shoulder pocket to my collar bone. It's adjusted where it all feels comfortable, and dry fired a bunch of positional shooting positions. I need to do what you say, put a pasty on the wall, line everything up straight, and pull straight back. I also need to get a more constant/repeatable position on my elbows that is holding the rear bag, so see how that might be causing my shoulders to shift. I'll get some videos dry firing so I can analyze... Thank you for your detailed response.
Shoulder pocket + Area 419 Hellfire Brake, I was shooting really well, and I was staying on target after every shot. Switching to collar bone + removing the hellfire brake, showed lots of problems. So I'm going to keep working on it until I get it right, then go back to the brake/suppressor. Thousands of rounds of rimfire unfortunately do nothing for helping with recoil management...
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