Rifle makes you look better than you are?

[Randoman5]

I see a lot of comments in this forum when speaking about very accurate rifles, (usually something like a GAP, AI, DTA Etc.) in which guys proclaim that the rifle makes them look better than they actually are. While I admire the humility, there is something about this statement which I find logically infuriating.

It is impossible for a rifle to make you shoot better than your capability in aiming the rifle. The rifle cannot aim itself. It will not magically direct your rounds where you want them to go even if that is not where you are aiming and your technique is poor. The only thing the rifle can do is let you down. It can send shots to places you are not aiming.

If you are suddenly a much better shot when using better equipment it is not a matter of the better equipment making what you're doing better. (with the obvious exception of ergonomic factors which make you more comfortable, allow you to perform the fundamentals of marksmanship more reliably) It is a matter of the equipment you were using letting you down.

It makes me wonder how many guys here are beating themselves up for "not doing their part" when in actuality it is their equipment which is not doing its part.

 

[Javelin]

Oh.... I don't know. When I was shooting NCAA rifle my Anschutz 1913 Super really helped me win a national sectional. I doubt I could have done it with a Walther or a lesser rifle.

 

[woogie_man]

Tracking point can,........

 

[Seandradamus]

I agree completely , which is why I bought and I believe others buy a high end rifle /scope,so I can work on ME not on figuring out why my rifle or scope or mounts have decided to spray an indecipherable shotgun pattern at 100 yards. Which leads to the statement"when I do my part" because if it's not looking good you can't blame your equipment any longer.
Funny thing is my rifle makes me look better than I am ..................... At the range ,because everyone around me is fighting there 300$ rifle and 99$ scope 90% of the time , I've seen guys take 2 hours to get on paper only to leave with jammed up scope turrets from cranking them to the extremes, meanwhile I'm just putting round after round into tiny clusters , so in a way it does make me look better by comparison.

 

[throwback]

First of all, we have to remember that the cost of equipment is relative to income. Some guys can drop on a GAP w/ S&B on top and not even flinch... and I don't blame them for buying the best because they can a afford it; good for them. While the notion you mention is meant to humble and an semi-humorous tongue in cheek remark, I think if you probe further you would find a more reasonable though process happening; the real reason for the purchase is to ensure that your equipment will never be your limiting factor. In the case of a match shooter, if that rifle affords you just one more hit in one match then it was worth it.

 

[dang472]

I'm not made of money by any means but I value my time enough to not waste it with crap gear. After a 70hr week and a few 4yr old birthday parties, if I get a chance let off a few rounds, it won't be chasing a zero with a CenterPoint from Walmart.

 

[snipe10]

dang472, well said, some guys golf, I shoot

 

[samnev]

I believe what ever gear one chooses doesn't make you better than you are. It makes you as good as you can be.

 

[TwoNiner]

I'm still new to LR shooting but I don't think you need the most expensive top tier gear, although its nice if you have the means. I concur in that where people go wrong is in buying the $105 Chinese scope to put on their rifle; and like dang472 said spend all of their time trying to figure out what the malfunction in their equipment is. I've seen my buddies do it. We drive for hours to get out to the desert and then they spend half the time out there trying to troubleshoot their scope that won't hold zero because the $19 rings they put on their .22 rifle keep coming loose.

The fact of the matter is that people have limited budgets, which is understandable, but if you're going to do it at all, save your pennies and do it right! I have learned a lot from my off the shelf Savage Model 12 LRP and 10x42 SWFA scope.

 

[Bjm0918]

I'm extremely new to bolt action rifles so I think I can offer something of value here. Two weeks ago my AT finally arrived with a PMII. It is the first rifle I have ever purchased. I want to get into long range shooting. I also work my ass off so dropping the coin wasn't a big issue considering the amount of $$ I will probably spend on ammo for it over the next few years.

Over the last decade I have spend a good deal of time shooting 5-stand and sporting clays, however I may have 500 rifle rounds max under my belt shooting my fathers AR's. A month ago while I was painfully waiting for the AT to arrive, I took out his bolt Howa .308 with a heavy barrel and a cheap scope to practice. My father kept telling me it was a tack driver. If I was lucky I had a 3" grouping. The thing was all over the place. I was using FGGM 175's.

AT arrives two weeks ago.... First trip I put 40 rounds through it screwing around trying to zero and familiarize myself with the PMII. Second trip I printed out some of the Impact Data Books "know your limitation" squares and 10 square rapid fire drill. I had no issue hitting or at least taking out the line with each of my shots even hitting the 1/4" Square at 100 yards. At 200 yards things opened up a little but I still had two hits of a 1/4" square. My 5 shot groupings all had touching holes except the one flyer in every group a inch over. Something I will have to work on. While I would like to say with a straight face I have some type of unbelievable natural form, that would be completely bullshit. It was the rifle.

I know I have a shit ton to learn, but I am extremely happy with my purchase and it was worth every penny. It's nice starting out knowing when things don't go right it's 100% me. Yes I do believe the right tools makes things go so much easier.

 

[Randoman5]

I'm extremely new to bolt action rifles so I think I can offer something of value here. Two weeks ago my AT finally arrived with a PMII. It is the first rifle I have ever purchased. I want to get into long range shooting. I also work my ass off so dropping the coin wasn't a big issue considering the amount of $$ I will probably spend on ammo for it over the next few years.

Over the last decade I have spend a good deal of time shooting 5-stand and sporting clays, however I may have 500 rifle rounds max under my belt shooting my fathers AR's. A month ago while I was painfully waiting for the AT to arrive, I took out his bolt Howa .308 with a heavy barrel and a cheap scope to practice. My father kept telling me it was a tack driver. If I was lucky I had a 3" grouping. The thing was all over the place. I was using FGGM 175's.

AT arrives two weeks ago.... First trip I put 40 rounds through it screwing around trying to zero and familiarize myself with the PMII. Second trip I printed out some of the Impact Data Books "know your limitation" squares and 10 square rapid fire drill. I had no issue hitting or at least taking out the line with each of my shots even hitting the 1/4" Square at 100 yards. At 200 yards things opened up a little but I still had two hits of a 1/4" square. My 5 shot groupings all had touching holes except the one flyer in every group a inch over. Something I will have to work on. While I would like to say with a straight face I have some type of unbelievable natural form, that would be completely bullshit. It was the rifle.

I know I have a shit ton to learn, but I am extremely happy with my purchase and it was worth every penny. It's nice starting out knowing when things don't go right it's 100% me. Yes I do believe the right tools makes things go so much easier.

First off. I don't think I ever meant to suggest that you have to have expensive stuff for it to work. I was only saying that you have to have stuff that works. There are lots of guys around with relatively inexpensive gear that get great results like the poster above with the LRP and SS scope.

Out of curiosity what attributes of your AT and S&B do you attribute to doing your shooting for you? I mean if you couldn't get comfortable behind the Howa and the ATs ergos were better that makes sense, but you're still the one aiming the rifle. The rifle can only shoot as well as you aim it. The AT has an adjustable cheek, length of pull and a great trigger. That stuff all helps, but you could add that stuff to the Howa.

Give yourself some credit.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Each of my rifles extend my dick by 2" so they make me look better in bed than I am.

 

[ArmyJerry]

I think the equipment helps you maximize your skills, nomatter how bad they might be. I find it amazing that people still buy factory tactical rifles when getting a good custom built is as cheap as a medium cost factory tactical ,and you get to pick everything you want. If you suck at shooting you will suck a bit less with better equipment, but you will look cooler sucking than if you had a shitty rifle.

 

[TheGerman]

Tracking point can,........

Out of this thread blasphemer!

There is no such thing as the equipment making you better than you are. This equation comes down to 2 variables; how good you are at using your equipment and what your equipment is capable of.

You could be the greatest shooter in the world but using a total shit setup and may be able to squeeze 4 MOA out of it at best, or you could be new and using a $5k custom rifle and getting 2MOA. The trick here is getting good equipment and then learning to use it. Nothing makes you better, some equipment just gives you a smaller cone of accuracy over others but if you are holding the exact same and using the same technique and one bolt gun shoots 1MOA and the other 5MOA, that's the difference; the equipment.

Once you have the gear nailed down, practice until the equipment cannot out perform you.

And Tracking Point has so many flaws its not even funny. I went over it in detail in another thread when they initially released the spec sheet and videos/demo. Avoid this please.

 

[Randoman5]

I think the equipment helps you maximize your skills, nomatter how bad they might be. I find it amazing that people still buy factory tactical rifles when getting a good custom built is as cheap as a medium cost factory tactical ,and you get to pick everything you want. If you suck at shooting you will suck a bit less with better equipment, but you will look cooler sucking than if you had a shitty rifle.

What do you think is the most cost effective way to get to a custom?

If you do a bare bones LRI group buy I get $550 for a donor rifle (I know you can buy actions by themselves but they seem kind of difficult to acquire) $325 for truing and barrel install $300-$350 for a barrel and add stock of choice. $1225 for the barreled action plus stock of your choice $200-infinty (Infinity = Cadex Chassis)

Although I'm sorely tempted to go $1350 for a Defiance Deviant $325 for Criterion Remage another $120 or so for tools (because I don't know if I could resist spending more money on gizmos for my action)

What's your solution to this problem?

 

[ArmyJerry]

The bare bones LRI is pretty good but so is the a Tac 30/300 with a krieger

Nothing wrong with the remage set up or the savage worked over by one of the smiths that do that, I have them and they will shoot just as good as my2 customs,but they are bench guns vs tactical guns.

I just have a hard time spending 2.5 to 3k for a factory gun.

 

[Randoman5]

The bare bones LRI is pretty good but so is the a Tac 30/300 with a krieger

Nothing wrong with the remage set up or the savage worked over by one of the smiths that do that, I have them and they will shoot just as good as my2 customs,but they are bench guns vs tactical guns.

I just have a hard time spending 2.5 to 3k for a factory gun.

Which factory guns cost that much? Only thing off the top of my head in that range is a TRG-22. Is there a reason you don't think Remage would be good for a tactical gun, or do you mean the Savage?

I was looking at the Stillers like Southpaw357 did. It looks pretty awesome but I read a few bad reviews when searching. Nobody has anything bad to say about the Deviant and it's at least $300 cooler to me subjectively.

 

[woogie_man]

No insult meant German......just stirring the pot.

It is always the shooter. You can have the best equipment in the world, but if you don't know what you are doing the equipment doesn't matter.

 

[Bjm0918]

First off. I don't think I ever meant to suggest that you have to have expensive stuff for it to work. I was only saying that you have to have stuff that works. There are lots of guys around with relatively inexpensive gear that get great results like the poster above with the LRP and SS scope.

Out of curiosity what attributes of your AT and S&B do you attribute to doing your shooting for you? I mean if you couldn't get comfortable behind the Howa and the ATs ergos were better that makes sense, but you're still the one aiming the rifle. The rifle can only shoot as well as you aim it. The AT has an adjustable cheek, length of pull and a great trigger. That stuff all helps, but you could add that stuff to the Howa.

Give yourself some credit.

1
Randoman- The weight and ergonomics of the AT were far superior to anything I have ever shot before. It was shocking

 

[MosesTheTank]

Which factory guns cost that much? Only thing off the top of my head in that range is a TRG-22.

All of the below have production line rifles. I think this is a short list of factory rifles in excess of 2.5k.

Dakota Arms

Mauser Hunting Rifles - Home Page

Blaser USA:*Home

Bolt-action rifles (some of them)

HOME (I've spent time in the shop, more than once. Trust me, even at $14k, or $25k, they are mostly production rifles)

Mark V® Ultramark | Rifles | Products | Weatherby.com

Jarrett Rifles - The World's Most Accurate Hunting Rifles - Jackson, SC

Nesika Firearms and Actions

Edit: My rifles typically make me look worse than I am. I always do my part. Fucking rifles.

 

[finbox]

My rem 5r has pulled off some crazy shots before. It's not my most accurate rifle but it's my luckiest. ( pull it out of its case, first shot hit on 8" target at 1010 yards, and many more lucky shots)

 

[PRDRIVER]

Obviously, the rifle can make a difference on how well you shoot. If you have a 1 MOA rifle, I would not expect you to turn in consistent sub 1/2 MOA groups like a good shooter with an AI, DTA, or custom rifle. But it all boils down to the shooter. If you can't shoot, it really doesn't matter what you have in your hands.

I have heard the same line before and am probably guilty of using it myself. They guys saying that "their rifle makes them look better than they are" in my opinion are trying to be modest. Maybe the correct wording would be "this rifle makes it easier to shoot groups like this".

 

[siscoe308]

''My rifles typically make me look worse than I am. I always do my part. Fucking rifles."

I about died with laughter!

@MoseTheTank, may I steal your wisdom for a signature?

 

[Steel head]

First of all, we have to remember that the cost of equipment is relative to income. Some guys can drop on a GAP w/ S&B on top and not even flinch.

That would not be me
That said the rifle I built on a budget is not holding me back at all.

 

[lash]

Gosh, I always thought that when people said that they were implying that their fine rifles made them look good, as in "cool". To steal a bit from Billy Crystal about 1980, " It is better to look good than to feel (shoot) good...".

I know that when I show up with my custom rifle that I bought used, every-day shooters with their puny factory rifles hurry to get out of my way and stare in awe, since I now look like someone they want to know.

 

[PRDRIVER]

Great rifles can be had for significantly less than a top end custom rifle or factory rifle like AI or DTA.

I have a tikka tactical that will hold 1/2 MOA. We had a local show up to a match with a Tikka that had an after market barrel and factory dremeled out stock. He smoked everyone. He was probably into his build around $1,200 for the rifle.

There are now a few custom Tikka's showing up on the line.

 

[MosesTheTank]

''My rifles typically make me look worse than I am. I always do my part. Fucking rifles."

I about died with laughter!

@MoseTheTank, may I steal your wisdom for a signature?

Haha, yes you may.

 

[Seandradamus]

You guys are missing it...... They are not saying the rifle makes them better than they are . They are saying LOOK better than I am .another words others are giving them accolades for such terrific performance when in reality a lot of people could be turning in those groups if their equipment was on par. At least in my area the range is 98% walmart rifles and cheap ar's so my GAP rifle makes me look better than I am , I may only be marginally better at shooting but my rifle makes me look real good .
Thanks GAP

 

[MosesTheTank]

You guys are missing it...... They are not saying the rifle makes them better than they are . They are saying LOOK better than I am .another words others are giving them accolades for such terrific performance when in reality a lot of people could be turning in those groups if their equipment was on par. At least in my area the range is 98% walmart rifles and cheap ar's so my GAP rifle makes me look better than I am , I may only be marginally better at shooting but my rifle makes me look real good .
Thanks GAP

And the opposite holds true. We have a monthly match where I beat 70% of the ARs using a Garand. There is no way I can top the other 30%, nor could anyone beat much of that group with an M1. But no one is saying, "oh, good job on tearing up ARs with a 70 year old rifle". At the end of the day it's just scores. But yes, I do get it.

Edit: I think it is also worth noting how many folks on here take the time to work up a load and practice technique. This is something that may also contribute to looking better.