I'm running a .25GT out of my rifle at 2590. I use the JTAC method and I see every shot from positional. But I also don't flow the reticle, I'm focused on the plate.
What’s the JTAC method?
Free recoil that isn't really free recoil. Hand over scope. Definitely not "driving" the rifle in the literal sense of the word.
21 pounds 4 oz, that will likely drop a bit once my maverick arrives and I can take some of the balance weights off (using 1.92lbs currently). My preferred weight is between 19-20, when I get much above that I notice it effecting my transitions/movements on stage. I use the support hand forward unless I have something to brace my forearm on without torquing my shoulders off center, then I'll JTAC it.
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I run a similar setup, but in 6GT. I'd be willing to bet the rig is still ass heavy if you put it on a cattle gate pole or something (mine is, although it balances on a bag on a wider prop - 2x4 or whatever). I have to have the bipod for that balance, though. Planning to rebarrel it with a 1.25" straight in a couple months to correct that situation...
Yes, mine has the Manners arca rail with the full set of aluminum weights and no buttweight. It requires a bipod to correctly balance it on a game changer. It really isn't rear heavy with the bipod attached though. I've checked it on a .5" prop to find where it truly balances.
I'm surprised Manners didn't use a heavier material than aluminum for the rail weights. They really should be brass. A 26" proof comp contour is a heavy barrel and I can still barely get the stock to balance properly.
I just ordered a 360 precision arca rail which is 1lb heavier, I'm hoping that will help.
I recently tried a friends 6.5 Creedmoor competition setup which weighs in at 24lbs. That extra 4lbs makes a considerable difference for spotting shots at closer ranges.
The original TCS used a rail made by 419 that used brass weights.
Not sure why/when they changed.
Not sure why/when they changed.
I don't think your weights are aluminum? They're stainless steel? (or, in the earlier version of the rail, coated carbon steel of some sort). There's been three different rails - one was an aluminum rail made by A419 and used A419's brass weights. In the same generation, you could order a steel rail, and it could be filled with 6 rectangular shaped coated steel weights. The current generation - I'm not sure the rail material, but it has 12 (I think) square stainless weights. I have one of the first gen steel rails on one TCS, and the newer generation on a second. The two that came with my current gen TCS were coated black - the extras I bought are bare stainless.
But yeah, going from 20 to 25# cuts recoil energy by something like 20% (been a while since I ran the recoil energy calculations, so that's from memory... but it was calculated against a 140gr 6.5 going 2800fps). After *that* it takes a LOT of weight to get another 20% - 25# seems to be the best "bang for the buck" purely based on recoil energy reduction
Not sure the actual answer - but the A419 rail had their serrations, and those can cut bags - but who knows the real answer (other than the folks at Manners and maybe A419)
Their website lists them as being aluminum, but I guess I don't really know for sure. The arca rail with the full set weighs about 25oz.
I don't care for Area 419's serrated rails, their abrasive to grip and seem to cause more issues with my bipod coming loose then they help. I wish manners had stuck with the brass weights though.
I have a bunch of configs, team field matches with 2 miles of hiking, run a 26" m24 w/ supressor, bout 18# build. Nrl hunter rifles that I shoot in prs for light gun practice, they're 12 and 16#. My full match rig, is 21# and 23# with ckyepod. I've ran up to 26# with truck axle barrel and fully weighted chassis, and I don't move as fast. But after watching pros navigate their 25# rigs, I realized I've been doing it wrong. I still think it's too fn heavy!
You have to really fight to get a TCS rifle up to 25lb... nowhere near as easy as Foundation or chassis. Ballpark numbers
9.50 28in 1.25" straight w/ MB
5.75 TCS
2.25 action, trigger
3.25 scope, rings
20.75 assuming the above
21.65 if you add the max 8x1.8oz Manners weights for 0.9lb
23.15 if you ditch the Manners ARCA for steel ARCA @ 39.7oz for an additional ~1.5lb
23.90 if you add 3x4oz Manners rear weights
pick your bipod
9.50 28in 1.25" straight w/ MB
5.75 TCS
2.25 action, trigger
3.25 scope, rings
20.75 assuming the above
21.65 if you add the max 8x1.8oz Manners weights for 0.9lb
23.15 if you ditch the Manners ARCA for steel ARCA @ 39.7oz for an additional ~1.5lb
23.90 if you add 3x4oz Manners rear weights
pick your bipod
Gotta be a typo - @tmanners or @RobertB could confirm. But... doing some quick math... Aluminum is about .1 lbs per cu in (1.6 oz per cu in). Stainless is about .28 lbs per cu in (4.48 oz per cu in). I measured one of mine at roughly .4 cu in (1.2x1.2x.3, and round down for the corners and hole). I double checked weight at 1.8oz, so that agrees with the website. If they were Aluminum, they'd be about .7oz - whereas stainless comes out to 1.79oz.... So... I'm thinking typo...
Brass would still be heavier than stainless, by a bit - but only about .1oz per weight. Now... tungsten... 4.5oz per weight! Sign me up! (those would be pricey, but I'm considering having a buddy make some for me...)
You’re probably correct. It really doesn’t make sense that they would use aluminum for weights.
I really like the Manners TCS stock, but I’ve always found it odd that a straight contour barrel is almost necessary to balance it properly.
There is just just a comp. Midnight Sun Rifle Challenge in Norway every July.
100% agreed... I'm having a straight contour barrel spun up for mine shortly for that very reason...
I didn't find that. Below is a pic of a Vudoo with a 22" MTU barrel, which is not a true heavy MTU, and it balances fine. Even if I took the bipod off. If you notice though I adjusted the rear weight by taking out the one large weight that comes with the stock. Just a little adjustment but it's possible without a straight contour barrel. I have my M24 contour 6.5 Creedmoor in one now and it balances fine also.
The area 419 rail with brass weights must weigh more than the Manners rail which mine came with.
There is only one weight in that rail that it came with. According to Area419 the rail without weights is 6 ounces and each weight is 3.5 ounces so that's 9.5 ounces. Not sure what the new ones weigh.
My Vudoo wears a 20" 1.25" contour Krieger, and sits in a TCS (in fact, it's the one I have that has the latest style rail and weights we've been discussing). It doesn't have any rear weights in it, and the rear pair of rail weights are removed, as well. Even with a bipod on it, it's still tail heavy. Yeah, sure, it'll balance on the 3.5" side of a 2x4, flat on the wood, just like yours - but put it on a cattle gate rail on a bag (or not on a bag), or other such narrow prop, and you see it right away. Meanwhile, the guys I shoot with can pop their rifles on a cattle gate with no bag and walk away from them (Foundations, MPA Matrix Pros, ACC Elites....). Like it or not, proper balance makes a difference to positional shooting.
I've considered adding a bloop tube to put some more weight out front, or (as I alluded to above) having some replacement rail weights made in tungsten (they'd weight 2.5x what the steel ones weigh, and a couple of those out front should help shift balance a bit). I'm at least a little married to this TCS, because it's been bedded (blah blah blah, doesn't need bedding, blah blah blah - this isn't the thread to explain it, but post-bedding it was easy to diagnose the issue - the lug was only touching the mini-chassis at the very corners). So, solving the balance equation is near and dear to my heart...
Not sure what to tell you but mine will sit on a bad on a prop just fine. Not rear heavy. I am wondering if it's a new rail and weight thing as the newer TCS have different arca rails and weights.
It could potentially be fill - IIRC, the earlier TCS stocks had Double Dead as an option, whereas current ones, it's a standard feature. But, I don't know - all I know is my gun is ass heavy. Manners says the new rail can be up to 34oz with a full weight kit - mine would be at 30.4 with the rear pair removed - and the bulk of that sits in front of the balance point, so I have significantly more weight out in front of the mag well on my chassis (just chassis alone - not considering barreled action, scope, etc).
I also know my 26" M24 profiled 6GT is also ass heavy in my original TCS - that's with the "1st generation steel rail" with full weight kit, no rear weight. It balances with a bipod hanging on it, though, or pretty darn close. Planning to rebarrel with a 28" 1.25 straight contour barrel, which should address that (and allow balance to be more finely tuned - still won't get to 25#, but I'm not as concerned about that). Having to run the bipod to get balance is problematic on some props around here.
Both have the Sikes rail kit, too - so that's same. I haven't bothered to compare weights between the two stocks, but they're clearly different generation/molds (the new ones have more pronounced texturing on the grip area - I like the new one better in that regard).
My 28" M24 for my 6.5 Creedmoor is in a TCS with double dead fill and one weight in the front and balances just fine. I have the rear weight in the LOP also. I can set it on a bag on a prop and it just sits there. Maybe it's scope type and placement that might change balance also.
About my experience as well… 28” M24 w/ large MB, stock 2 front/0 rear weights balances 1” in front of receiver
Next blank is a 31” MTU, don’t know if I will finish @ 28” or 30” though
I’m suspicious the scope is a contributing factor. I have a gen 3 razor on mine. That thing is 1lb heavier than any other scope I have and all that weight sits rear of the arca rail
The last eat version of the rail is made of aluminum with steel weights. The new rail doesn’t get as heavy as the 419 but many didn’t want the Arca lock serrations and RRS says it causes issues with the Anvil type heads.
If you do try to balance it out with a heavy barrel I’d say do 1.20” max and not the 1.25” as you may have some clearance issues. Especially if you go with a high gloss finish. The Bartlein HV+ or MTU+ and Proof Competition contours do work well with it.
My rifles balance well and I use a MTU or MTU+ with all the front weights and one rear weight. If I go to a 1.25” then I need to add a second rear weight. That is balanced about 5” ahead of the magwell.
Hope this helps
22 almost 23 pounds. Impact, tt , mtu, brass weights in stock, anarchy brass arca, 28" barrel. I moved the 4 front weights in the stock to the rear spots and it balances so nicely. Before it was very nose heavy.
21lbs, foundation MG2, 28inch heavy varmint contour barrel, front brass weights, full length aluminum arca rail. Balances about the same 4 inches in front of mag well.
I'm surprised someone hasn't used a RRS 17s mount and brass or tungsten weights that you can add/adjust that clamps to your spigot or arca rail to balance your guns.
I may need this for my 14# rimfire
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That "da'shaft" thing is weird. Not bad, but takes up forward realestate.
I make a chassis which is 3.5kg - 5kg before you put external weights on it. (7.5 - 11lbs). Has a internal weight system on it.
I dont get it, but people asked for it, so i did it. Not a huge fan of overly heavy rifles, i go for balance.
I make a chassis which is 3.5kg - 5kg before you put external weights on it. (7.5 - 11lbs). Has a internal weight system on it.
I dont get it, but people asked for it, so i did it. Not a huge fan of overly heavy rifles, i go for balance.
I run mine at ~22lbs, balanced center of a Shmedium ~4.5" in front of the magwell, and see 99% of my shots.
I would probably try a bit heavier if I could (just to see)... there's a guy in the top 10 who shoots at my local club and his rig is easily 26lbs or more.
I have a Manners TCS with the original steel rail they offered and all the steel rectangle weights installed (it's heavier than and came out before the serrated aluminum A419 rail).
I honestly haven't picked up a TCS yet that needed/needs the rear LOP weights without it making the rig ass-heavy IMO.
I would probably try a bit heavier if I could (just to see)... there's a guy in the top 10 who shoots at my local club and his rig is easily 26lbs or more.
I have a Manners TCS with the original steel rail they offered and all the steel rectangle weights installed (it's heavier than and came out before the serrated aluminum A419 rail).
I honestly haven't picked up a TCS yet that needed/needs the rear LOP weights without it making the rig ass-heavy IMO.
Like i mentioned seen these at Rimfire worlds last year in Italy, at the time, not many rifles ran 26' 1.2' straight contours, lots of 'outboard' weights were in action , team USA had bunch of ''da shafts''
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Added a 360 Precision steel ARCA, should be just shy of 21lb? Definitely can’t move quite as fast. I believe I would prefer the weight to be on the end of the barrel & not the rail.
28” m24, Razor, steel ARCA, no other weights, no mag barely balances on a GC 1+1 (pictured), but is ready to tip rearwards. Does better on a Fortune Cookie or schmedium
28” m24, Razor, steel ARCA, no other weights, no mag barely balances on a GC 1+1 (pictured), but is ready to tip rearwards. Does better on a Fortune Cookie or schmedium
Yeah, understood. I just sent one of my chassis to a guy and he has a vudoo kukri(?) Profile and is only a 20" barrel.
Part of the reason why i designed to have internal, but optional external too. The ext weights i do are stackable, giving more flexability on position, and i do find quite a few people using them on rimfires out the front, just to achieve balance.
Nice work on getting to worlds !
Black razor gen III hell yeah!
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