Rimfire vs Centerfire Shooting Technique

[Mr. Wolf]

Greetings,

Background: A bit of a marksmanship question but mainly pertains to rimfire, hence the post in this section (Mods, please move if it is more appropriate in the training section).
I am a .4" @ 100 yard shooter with the 6.5 CM but relatively new to the rimfire world. My 22 LR groups at 50 yards are ~.5". The purpose of my rimfire build is to practice fundamentals for the centerfire rifles for hunting and local matches.

My question: Is there a difference in applying techniques (not changing fundamentals) when shooting centerfire vs. rimfire rifles?
I found my best rimfire groups happen when my cheek contact and firing hand grip are lighter than how I would normally hold for centerfire rifles.

I did a cursory Sniper's Hide and Google search but could not find a good answer.

Thank you in advance for any help/insight you may be able to share.

 

[MarkCZ]

Most rimfire are lighter than centerfire guns. Unless you have one that matches your centerfire. I shoot everything off bi-pods , so I like to hold on to the gun. You just need to learn what your rimfire likes.
Mark

 

[Rob01]

I shoot my rimfire rifle just like my centerfires. No difference.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I shoot my rimfire rifle just like my centerfires. No difference.

+1

I position my body the same, use the same amount of pressure on the cheekpiece, same pressure on the grip, same 90 degree bend on the trigger finger, manipulate the rear bag the same, etc... It keeps it consistent across the board so that when I flop down behind any one of my rifles it basically feels all the same, regardless if one is lighter or heavier, shooting a .22 LR or .308 WIN.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Thanks for the recommendations.
For practical shooting vs max accuracy, what do you think is the best trigger pull weight?
My centerfire rifles are around 2 1/4 lbs, the CZ 457 is only 1 1/4 lbs. Would it be best to match them at 2 1/4?
Thank you in advance.

 

[Rob01]

Trigger would really come down to you. There are people who like down in the ounces and people who like 3 pounds. If you wanted them to feel the same then putting them at the same weight might help.

I had my triggers in the 2.5 pound range for years but run them about 1.5 pounds now.

 

[XLR308]

The rim fire I shoot the most is a 10/22 with a Tac Sol barrel, the entire rifle scope included is maybe 5 1/2 lbs and any inconsistency in form or follow through will pull your pants down on target.
I shoot it just the same as my centerfire rifles and it really forces me to pay more attention to what I am doing.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

If you're "doing it right," you'll shoot rimfire and centerfire the same way, as was stated above. The biggest difference with shooting rimfire, aside from the obvious - recoil, and weight unless your'e shooting matched rifles - is the bullet dwell time in the barrel. I've learned that a sloppy trigger pull and follow-through I might get away with on a centerfire rifle will noticeably result in a "thrown" shot with the .22 (my newest centerfire build is, at 17 pounds or so, only 2 pounds more than my Vudoo .22; I'm too old and arthritic to be comfortable with the 20+-pound beasts a lot of the youngsters like).

As for trigger pull weight: as Rob said, that's highly subjective and your preference is likely to change with experience. I like my rifle triggers to break at 8 ounces. Early on, I was ok with almost 2 pounds because that was as low as my factory rifles' triggers would go. But as I got into customs, I went as low as four ounces for a brief period but that was too light, and I've been comfortable with 8 ounces for quite awhile.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Shoot them the same way.

You can get away with a lot more free recoiling with a .22 than you can with a centerfire. That’s a choice you will make yourself as the shooter.

I’d highly recommend learning to shoot them both the exact same before employing techniques such as free recoil.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, I’d suggest a heavier trigger weight until you learn not to slap the trigger.

Many are in the habit of having a large wobble (which is a product of bad position) and instead of fixing that they use a light trigger and try to time/slap it which is now a second problem introduced.

2 stage triggers also help with slapping as you have to have your finger on the trigger with the first stage taken up.

 

[jbell]

If you're "doing it right," you'll shoot rimfire and centerfire the same way, as was stated above. The biggest difference with shooting rimfire, aside from the obvious - recoil, and weight unless your'e shooting matched rifles - is the bullet dwell time in the barrel. I've learned that a sloppy trigger pull and follow-through I might get away with on a centerfire rifle will noticeably result in a "thrown" shot with the .22

Exactly this!

 

[steve123]

I don't load the bipod with my 22's and follow through is paramount.

I want my 22 to be held neutrally, mine is a pretty light gun and torquing it in any fashion results in muffed up shots.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Dthomas3523-
Very much appreciate the knowledge shared.
Since the purpose of my rimfire is to improve centerfire fundamentals, I will definitely heed your well reasoned advice.

Steve123-
Good point on the rimfire rifle rigidity for maximizing accuracy (ie: my 10/22 takedown in a Magpul Backpacker stock). I think the Cz 457 with the Boyd's Pro Varmint laminate stock should be up to task for a centerfire like hold.

A follow up question please: for NRL 22 competition rimfire shooting, is a spirit level helpful or do more harm?
Asking because on 4 of 10 stages I only shot 7 or 8 rounds. I found myself trying to level the bubble after establishing a new position which ate a lot of time.

I'm going back to the salt mines to dryfire and build positions on props.

Cheers and happy shooting.

 

[Rob01]

Shooting with the bubble level will come down to practice. Also some shots don’t require perfect level and if you are wasting time trying to level and running out of time then practice getting into position faster and more level just by body mechanics and not so much with the level. You will be surprised how easy it can become.

 

[littlepod]

Dthomas3523-
Very much appreciate the knowledge shared.
Since the purpose of my rimfire is to improve centerfire fundamentals, I will definitely heed your well reasoned advice.

Steve123-
Good point on the rimfire rifle rigidity for maximizing accuracy (ie: my 10/22 takedown in a Magpul Backpacker stock). I think the Cz 457 with the Boyd's Pro Varmint laminate stock should be up to task for a centerfire like hold.

A follow up question please: for NRL 22 competition rimfire shooting, is a spirit level helpful or do more harm?
Asking because on 4 of 10 stages I only shot 7 or 8 rounds. I found myself trying to level the bubble after establishing a new position which ate a lot of time.View attachment 7435578View attachment 7435579

I'm going back to the salt mines to dryfire and build positions on props.

Cheers and happy shooting.

Levels are good learning tools. Relying on them to shoot is not the right way, but using them to verify if you're off level and help diagnose why you're off level is good.

I noticed recently that every time I shoulder my rifle lately I am off level, so I'm diagnosing myself why this is constantly happening. In the match this past weekend I dropped quite a few shots being off level.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Bubble levels are better as training tools. Teach yourself what level is with the bubble.

Then if you want to use one on the clock, it’s just verifying and making small changes.

If you’re having to make big adjustments on the clock, you need to work on it while not on the clock. Also as rob said, if the target is close or big enough, don’t sweat a little cant in a compromised position. Or favor the opposite of the cant when you see it as it’s easier to hold it than fix it at times.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Bubble levels are better as training tools. Teach yourself what level is with the bubble.

Then if you want to use one on the clock, it’s just verifying and making small changes.

If you’re having to make big adjustments on the clock, you need to work on it while not on the clock. Also as rob said, if the target is close or big enough, don’t sweat a little cant in a compromised position. Or favor the opposite of the cant when you see it as it’s easier to hold it than fix it at times.

This.

I've had Vortex bubble levels on my rifles from the get-go. They're all mounted well forward on the scope tube so I can see them at a very quick glance while solidly "in the gun." When I'm practicing or doing load development, I pay quite a bit of attention to them. But during matches, I barely glance at them, and when I do, the gun is usually pretty doggone level. Muscle memory.

 

[beetroot]

Levels are good learning tools. Relying on them to shoot is not the right way, but using them to verify if you're off level and help diagnose why you're off level is good.

I noticed recently that every time I shoulder my rifle lately I am off level, so I'm diagnosing myself why this is constantly happening. In the match this past weekend I dropped quite a few shots being off level.

If you are off level to the same degree everytime then that is just your natural position with your rifle set up.
I believe Frank talks a lot about this issue whenever bubble levels come up.

If you are unable to correct the natural level with adjustments to the stock then you'd be better to just level the scope to your natural position and don't worry about whether the rifle is perfectly level or not.

When I install a scope I level the reticle with the rifle in my natural position with a plumb bob. You of course will then have to use a scope mounted level rather than a rail mounted one.

I'm happy to be told I'm an idiot and interpreting Franks opinions all wrong, but that's the way I've always done it and been rather successful.

 

[littlepod]

If you are off level to the same degree everytime then that is just your natural position with your rifle set up.
I believe Frank talks a lot about this issue whenever bubble levels come up.

If you are unable to correct the natural level with adjustments to the stock then you'd be better to just level the scope to your natural position and don't worry about whether the rifle is perfectly level or not.

When I install a scope I level the reticle with the rifle in my natural position with a plumb bob. You of course will then have to use a scope mounted level rather than a rail mounted one.

I'm happy to be told I'm an idiot and interpreting Franks opinions all wrong, but that's the way I've always done it and been rather successful.

That's how I interpreted it too from Frank. What actually happened when I went home was that my buttstock on the MDT ACC got loose a few weeks ago, and I tightened it back up. I didn't know there was that much play in it and when I tightened it up it was off by 2 degrees from level... so everytime I put it to my shoulder I was off by 2 degrees. It's not much, but I kept wondering why things just felt odd. I just leveled my buttstock to my rifle the way I originally had it and did some dry fire position drills and life is back to normal again. 2 degrees isn't much, but I guess 2 degrees 150 yards, 3" steel with a little wind probably just knocked me off a little bit enough to get a miss. 2 degrees is only going to be like .8" shift

 

[Mr. Wolf]

All, thank you for the great insight on the bubble level.
During match paced shooting, I found myself slightly canted to the right but at distances <100 yards, I don't think the time taken to get it perfect was not worth not getting 2 or 3 shots off. Although I have a reasonable sense on how level should feel like in the supported prone position, I will continue to train to improve my muscle memory on what feels level when building various positions.

For future reference, here is what I took away from this thread :

1. Train like you fight. Since my rimfire rifle will be primary used as a trainer for my centerfire rifles, use the same cheek pressure, grip pull back, support hand mechanics, and overall follow-through for both rimfire and centerfire rifles.

2. Trigger pull weight preference is subjective but for training purposes, similar pull weights may aide in muscle memory. However, going for a lighter trigger pull weight without addressing the fundamentals may lead to other bad habits.

3. Bubble levels may have a role in certain situations but it can be detrimental during timed competition stages. Use the bubble level as a quick verification of a level shooting position and scope rather than the primary focus especially during short distance stages or stages with lots of position changes. For shooting for groups or longer ranges that have less transitions and more time, the bubble level could play role but the primary purpose is to validate good fundamentals and building a solid position through muscle memory.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Hope to see you at the range, happy shooting.

 

[JohnK454]

Bubble levels. When my wife started shooting subsonic 300BLK at longer ranges, I told her she was canting the rifle and causing misses. I could easily see it standing behind her. It went like this:

"You're canting the rifle"

"No I'm not"

"Yes you are"

Old Married Folks. LOL

So, I put a level on the rifle, let her get set, and then told her to look at the level. She believed the level and soon naturally found the correct position. Now the bubble is just a quick check to verify, usually when she hasn't been shooting for a while. Like LRFs and wind meters, they have their place as helpful training tools - but diddling with hardware under time pressure can cost ya.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Bubble levels. When my wife started shooting subsonic 300BLK at longer ranges, I told her she was canting the rifle and causing misses. I could easily see it standing behind her. It went like this:

"You're canting the rifle"

"No I'm not"

"Yes you are"

Old Married Folks. LOL

So, I put a level on the rifle, let her get set, and then told her to look at the level. She believed the level and soon naturally found the correct position. Now the bubble is just a quick check to verify, usually when she hasn't been shooting for a while. Like LRFs and wind meters, they have their place as helpful training tools - but diddling with hardware under time pressure can cost ya.

LRF’s are definitely not in the same category as training tools.

 

[JohnK454]

LRF’s are definitely not in the same category as training tools.

To me, they are - in the context that I have used them for many years to better my ability to judge range while hunting.

 

[*rim-star*]

I only shoot rimfire these days, I think how you hold it depends a lot on the rifle and the rest set up, I only let the the butt pad lightly touch my shoulder and use what I call a medium grip, just enough to "tighten" things up, you have to watch the torque on the stock, especially synthetic stocks and follow through is very important.

 

[phlegethon]

To me, they are - in the context that I have used them for many years to better my ability to judge range while hunting.

It is humanly possible to perceive cant adequately (~0.2 degrees) to shoot accurately, at least for non-ELR applications. It most definitely is not humanly possible to estimate ranges within 10 yards at long distance, which is what you need to hit a 1 MOA target.

 

[hlee]

Rimfire rifles are lighter than centerfire rifles. The inertia of a heavy rifle will resist input from your cheek or hand position better than a light rifle. Once you start the engine in motion, the rifle is going to do what it is going to do, and the best that you can hope for is to influence it as little as possible. That is the “madness” behind proper fundamentals. That said, I have found that I can get away with a lot more behind my rimfire rifles than I can centerfire rifles. Spotting impacts, even at less than 50 yards, is trivial with a rimfire except in the most compromised of positions.

According to JBM ballistics, a 10 mph wind will blow a 40 grain 22lr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1070 FPS 2.4 moa at 50 yards. The same wind will blow a 147 grain 6.5 mm ELDM with a 2700 FPS muzzle velocity 2.3 moa at 450 yards. Hitting a 0.25” spinner at 50 yards is not trivial with a 22lr, but it is a very high percentage shot. Hitting a 2.25” plate at 450 y with a 6.5 creedmoor is not so high percentage. There is a lot more to the differences between centerfire and rimfire than drop and drift...

 

[littlepod]

Hitting a 0.25” spinner at 50 yards is not trivial with a 22lr, but it is a very high percentage shot. Hitting a 2.25” plate at 450 y with a 6.5 creedmoor is not so high percentage.

I've been thinking about this in the past. I think to 'hit' a steel means any way to graze it, so a .25" spinner is

.25" + .22/2 (left side) + .22/2 (right side) so really as long as your shot was .47" of total horizontal you will be able to hit the spinner, so really it's a 1moa shot.

A 2.25" plate at 450y, with a 6.5 so .264/2 left side and .264/2 right side is 2.51" total horizontal, so it ends up being still a .56 moa shot which is why it's so much more difficult.

 

[hlee]

I've been thinking about this in the past. I think to 'hit' a steel means any way to graze it, so a .25" spinner is

.25" + .22/2 (left side) + .22/2 (right side) so really as long as your shot was .47" of total horizontal you will be able to hit the spinner, so really it's a 1moa shot.

A 2.25" plate at 450y, with a 6.5 so .264/2 left side and .264/2 right side is 2.51" total horizontal, so it ends up being still a .56 moa shot which is why it's so much more difficult.

Yep, it’s funny to see the light turn on when you explain to someone that a 1/4” spinner at 50 yards is a 1moa shot... But, to go along with that, wind is much easier to call within an acceptable margin at 50 yards vs 450 yards. And, a centerfire rifle will take advantage of your poor fundamentals while a rimfire will look at your jacked position and say “nah, it’ll be fine...”

 

[littlepod]

Yep, it’s funny to see the light turn on when you explain to someone that a 1/4” spinner at 50 yards is a 1moa shot... But, to go along with that, wind is much easier to call within an acceptable margin at 50 yards vs 450 yards. And, a centerfire rifle will take advantage of your poor fundamentals while a rimfire will look at your jacked position and say “nah, it’ll be fine...”

True. Rimfire you can really get lazy with free recoil, no work on spotting impacts, etc. Though with some of these larger events, shooting out repeatedly at 200-300-400 yards things do add up. And also the bullet is so tiny and slow that while you might have good light to spot the bullet, if you don't, misses are pretty hard to figure out where it's impacting.

Then again in PRS, shooting a 20lb 6GT, feels pretty damn similar in terms of recoil and 'gaming'.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It is humanly possible to perceive cant adequately (~0.2 degrees) to shoot accurately, at least for non-ELR applications. It most definitely is not humanly possible to estimate ranges within 10 yards at long distance, which is what you need to hit a 1 MOA target.

People kid themselves all the time. You can set your max point blank and then make a judgement that you’re inside that window.

But you’re not making range calls past a few hundred accurately (without an lrf) unless you’re using your reticle. And if you have time to mil, you have time to hit it with a laser. Not to mention all the pitfalls of reticle ranging.

 

[Dthomas3523]

True. Rimfire you can really get lazy with free recoil, no work on spotting impacts, etc. Though with some of these larger events, shooting out repeatedly at 200-300-400 yards things do add up. And also the bullet is so tiny and slow that while you might have good light to spot the bullet, if you don't, misses are pretty hard to figure out where it's impacting.

Then again in PRS, shooting a 20lb 6GT, feels pretty damn similar in terms of recoil and 'gaming'.

That 20lb centerfire is still exponentially harder. If you completely free recoil or manage the recoil very badly, you will still miss seeing your shot.

A good centerfire shooter will place well at a Rimfire match. A bad centerfire shooter will many times place well at Rimfire but almost never at a centerfire match.

Seeing your shots cannot be overstated in positional shooting.

 

[hlee]

A bad centerfire shooter will many times place well at Rimfire but almost never at a centerfire match.

Seeing your shots cannot be overstated in positional shooting.

Hi, I’m hlee, and I embody this message...”