I use 3 of them so I can throw charges as fast as I can dump them. There’s almost no waiting. Start all 3, once the first one is done and you dump the charge, the next will be ready and so on. With 4 there would be no waiting.So Chargemasters are so unreliable you have to have 3 or 4 of them, yet they are more accurate and so much faster than a beam?
I wouldn't know because I don't own one, just wondering if I'm even smart enough to understand this argument.
- Thread starter Dildobaggins
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Again, be sure to measure what matters. Ask yourself whether you are going to be a better shooter by decreasing your reloading time by 25%, thus loading more rounds, like you do with a Chargemaster or even a really good powder dropper, or whether you are going to become a better shooter by making sure each and every charge is to the kernel. It's not a difficult equation to figure out.
OK. I was misunderstanding your reason for having so many. I was under the mistaken impression you were using them to check accuracy against each other. I can def see a time saving benefit.
I have an old RCBS 1010 I bought in 1994 and it is accurate. I purchased a set of check weights and had them verified on a calibrated scale at work and they are right on the money. The check weights confirmed that the RCBS 1010 is dead nuts accurate.
I still use the 1010 once a week or so when I adjust the powder dispenser on the Dillon RL550B. I've never had an issue with the scale and would try to find a used one for sale if I needed to replace it.
Either that, or ask your self what you are willing to spend on this particular product, and then go from there, but I see where you are coming from.
Yep. All about speed. I’m fine with the 0.1gr accuracy.
very true.
but I dont shoot more than 1500 accurate rounds per year (because there is no more trainings/matches), so I can do it with mechanical scale.
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I venture to say most shooters using a bipod and a rear squeeze bag can’t outshoot a charge master.
It’s also interesting some of the double talk.
People talk about “wide nodes” and “positive compensation.” But then also say you need 0.02 grain charge weight ES.
It’s also interesting some of the double talk.
People talk about “wide nodes” and “positive compensation.” But then also say you need 0.02 grain charge weight ES.
We lack rigorous testing of which variables matter and in what proportion. We need that info, but we can't get the powder and primers to test it!
I've been using a Redding beam, that I bought when I was 15 years old; it's cast iron and never fails, no plastic anywhere. I use a Chargemaster mostly, but if I want to measure more accurately, I use the Redding. I know I can measure to considerably less than a tenth of a grain with it, with the Chargemaster, maybe, maybe not! You're either a grain above or not, nothing in between with the electronic reading in the Chargemaster.
Don't know that you will be happy with what's available in the price range for hobby level balance beams. I used the RCBS for a couple of years quite happily, with a Dandy Trickler to top it off, before breaking down and getting the RCBS Chargemaster, which I still use the Dandy on to top off.
Good luck.
I started reloading in the late 70s. About 20 years ago, I was moving into a new house and had other life interests going on, so I sold all my equipment. When I got back into reloading about 10 years ago, I wanted to replace all my RCBS gear. I started going to sporting equipment stores to look at what was available. The Rockchucker presses and RCBS 505 and 1010 scales all looked cheap. I did a little research and was surprised that they are now made in China. I didn't want that, so I did what alot of you said in earlier posts....I got on eBay and looked around for some older "made in the USA" presses and powder measures. I surprised how easy it was to find practically new equipment, and ended up with great deals. My guess is that alot of people start the hobby and find that it's not to their liking and end up putting it up for sale before it's hardly even used much.
I was doing some scale shopping today thinking in same direction. A beam scale means zero electrical needs.pmclaine answered:
"Yep it seems choresome but I have no trust for electronic scales or Chargemaster type get ups."
THIS^^^
What are you gonna do when the 2022 EMP hits and all your electronics are toast?
that's in all things, because we are super exelent consumers of useless stuff. especialy in america. most consuming country of useless crap.
My Chargemaster pan weighs 156.4 grains. Every time I remove the pan from the weighing plate I see the negative weight of the pan.
Instantly notice drift. I may have to push the zero button. Beams are tedious. Electronics are fun. Kinda like the difference between a push mower and a zero turn.
Easy Peasy.
BugIn
Instantly notice drift. I may have to push the zero button. Beams are tedious. Electronics are fun. Kinda like the difference between a push mower and a zero turn.
Easy Peasy.
BugIn
Being a representative of the Beam Scale crowd (but having used both Beam and Electronic) I am seeing a trend.
Some people love their beam scales
a. simple
b. Reliable
d. Traditional technology that can still do the job
e. Quick if one knows how to work the “system”
f. No electricity required (but keep the drafts away)
g. Work best if at eye level
h. Important to keep an eye on where the weights are on the scale
Some people love their electronic scales
a. Automatic - feed in the numbers the scale does the rest
b. Discounting drift, never have to worry about the balance weights sliding up or down the beam
c. Many claim they are quicker without having to know a system
d. Modern
e. Can drift, need to keep checking and resetting
f. Don’t work worth a durn when the power is out
So, which is best, and what can be deducted from all the wisdom elicited here
So what is the trend?
Some like beam scales
Some like electronic scales.
Looks like a Ford vs. Chevy argument to me. I like Chevy’s.
Some people love their beam scales
a. simple
b. Reliable
d. Traditional technology that can still do the job
e. Quick if one knows how to work the “system”
f. No electricity required (but keep the drafts away)
g. Work best if at eye level
h. Important to keep an eye on where the weights are on the scale
Some people love their electronic scales
a. Automatic - feed in the numbers the scale does the rest
b. Discounting drift, never have to worry about the balance weights sliding up or down the beam
c. Many claim they are quicker without having to know a system
d. Modern
e. Can drift, need to keep checking and resetting
f. Don’t work worth a durn when the power is out
So, which is best, and what can be deducted from all the wisdom elicited here
So what is the trend?
Some like beam scales
Some like electronic scales.
Looks like a Ford vs. Chevy argument to me. I like Chevy’s.
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If a beam scale was *required* F class and long range BR would be using them. They don’t need high volume enough they would forego a beam if it was that much better.
You’ll find most are using Fx120 as well as some using a Prometheus. And even some still using chargemasters.
If you have a reason to possibly need to load ammo in an emergency situation, keep a beam on the shelf. Or if you don’t mind using it or can’t afford it.
But again, if there was any validity to a beam even remotely being better, the top pack in games where .1’s matter would be using them when it counts.
You’ll find most are using Fx120 as well as some using a Prometheus. And even some still using chargemasters.
If you have a reason to possibly need to load ammo in an emergency situation, keep a beam on the shelf. Or if you don’t mind using it or can’t afford it.
But again, if there was any validity to a beam even remotely being better, the top pack in games where .1’s matter would be using them when it counts.
Personally I’m thinking about inventing a kernel cutter for extruded powders that can third a stick of Varget. That way I have it, you know, perfect.
I may just do the three dispenser thing too, just with Prometheus(es).
Lol I’ve got an AutoTrickler V3, but I honestly trust my old Ohaus 505 more. I’ve got it slicked down pretty good. I’ve had my fx120i drift 0.2 grains in front of my eyes. I’ve addressed that issue, but that’s a hard thing to shake from your memory.
I may just do the three dispenser thing too, just with Prometheus(es).
Lol I’ve got an AutoTrickler V3, but I honestly trust my old Ohaus 505 more. I’ve got it slicked down pretty good. I’ve had my fx120i drift 0.2 grains in front of my eyes. I’ve addressed that issue, but that’s a hard thing to shake from your memory.
I'd venture to say I can't outshoot 70 year old military surplus ammunition.
Digitals are honed - get one with good reviews and you will be amazed at it's impact on accuracy and simplicity and repeatability.
I bought an RCBS 505 beam scale like 35 years ago when I first started reloading. I still have it and still use it some. For years I loaded all my match rifle ammo using that scale, a Redding powder measure and an RCBS manual trickler. But the 505 has a problem. The zeroing adjustment is susceptible to vibration from the bench it sits on. Even cranking the handle on my Dillon or RCBS press is enough to cause the scale to go out of zero after not too many rounds. So every 10 rounds or so I have to re-check the scale zero. I also find that just moving the poise sliders can jiggle the scale to the point that the zero adjustment changes all by itself, which makes the whole re-zeroing exercise kind of moot. Huge PITA. I finally shelled out the $$ for an RCBS Chargemaster Lite and it's made things so much easier, not to mention more consistent.
And if the EMP does happen, well I figure then I'll have more urgent problems than loading match ammo.
And if the EMP does happen, well I figure then I'll have more urgent problems than loading match ammo.
beam scales are far heavier to operate properly than electronic. that's why ppl dont like them. if you want to get same precision from beam scale like on fx120i, it's pain in the ass and very slow. you must swing every charge after trickling.
but...
imho; it's easier to fast load 10 rounds with beam scale than with electronic dispenser, because you dont need to clean after work etc...
but...
imho; it's easier to fast load 10 rounds with beam scale than with electronic dispenser, because you dont need to clean after work etc...
Over and over i read about electronic scale DRIFT.
Is this zero drift? Like warm it up, zero and watch it drift? Over a minute, an hour, all day drift?
Is it full scale drift? Like 200 grams @ cal (3087 grains) ?
Is it 30 grains in the pan and it drifts after first settling, after a minute? After sitting in the pan for an hour?
Is it with a 2 or 3 gram check weight just sitting there drifting? Drifting back and forth or continuously up a count or two?
Drifts up with time many many counts?
Load cell scales will creep with time loaded. Electronic full scale factor will drift from day to day.
Electronic zero will hide a count or two.
Are too many digits distracting you?
Is technique causing apparent drift?
Loading room environment causing erratic readings?
I have a milligram indicating scale that would have to drift up (or down) 6 counts to miss by 0.1 grain.
(0.1 Grain = 6.48 Milligrams)
I have NEVER seen that with check weights. Why would it happen with powder?
I also have an old metal base Lyman 1000 that will sit day after day with a check weight and it doesn't drift at all.
It's limited to +/- 0.1 grain "if I do my part"
Is this zero drift? Like warm it up, zero and watch it drift? Over a minute, an hour, all day drift?
Is it full scale drift? Like 200 grams @ cal (3087 grains) ?
Is it 30 grains in the pan and it drifts after first settling, after a minute? After sitting in the pan for an hour?
Is it with a 2 or 3 gram check weight just sitting there drifting? Drifting back and forth or continuously up a count or two?
Drifts up with time many many counts?
Load cell scales will creep with time loaded. Electronic full scale factor will drift from day to day.
Electronic zero will hide a count or two.
Are too many digits distracting you?
Is technique causing apparent drift?
Loading room environment causing erratic readings?
I have a milligram indicating scale that would have to drift up (or down) 6 counts to miss by 0.1 grain.
(0.1 Grain = 6.48 Milligrams)
I have NEVER seen that with check weights. Why would it happen with powder?
I also have an old metal base Lyman 1000 that will sit day after day with a check weight and it doesn't drift at all.
It's limited to +/- 0.1 grain "if I do my part"
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For my V3 I did have some zero drift and I did a few things to get rid of it. The main things were getting a power conditioner, grounding the scale and installing all the wind guards. I also noticed some drift when using the V3 powder cup and when I switched to using the Area419 cup the drift totally stopped. I've left the scale for over a day with nothing on it and with a calibration weight on it another time and had no drift either time.Over and over i read about electronic scale DRIFT.
Is this zero drift? Like warm it up, zero and watch it drift? Over a minute, an hour, all day drift?
Is it full scale drift? Like 200 grams @ cal (3087 grains) ?
Is it 30 grains in the pan and it drifts after first settling, after a minute? After sitting in the pan for an hour?
Is it with a 2 or 3 gram check weight just sitting there drifting? Drifting back and forth or continuously up a count or two?
Drifts up with time many many counts?
Load cell scales will creep with time loaded. Electronic full scale factor will drift from day to day.
Electronic zero will hide a count or two.
Are two many digits distracting you?
Is technique causing apparent drift?
Loading room environment causing erratic readings?
I have a milligram indicating scale that would have to drift up (or down) 6 counts to miss by 0.1 grain.
(0.1 Grain = 6.48 Milligrams)
I have NEVER seen that with check weights. Why would it happen with powder?
I also have an old metal base Lyman 1000 that will sit day after day with a check weight and it doesn't drift at all.
It's limited to +/- 0.1 grain "if I do my part"
Another thing I find that helps is to let the scale warm up for 30 minutes with nothing on it, then set the cup on the scale and hit the zero button. This sets the weight with the cup on the scale to read zero, but also reads a consistent number when you remove the cup. Note what that number is with no cup and that makes it much easier to see if there is any drift. You basically should see zero when the cup is on the scale and the number noted earlier when the cup is off the scale. Makes it easy to notice if a grain of powder spilled out onto the scale or if the scale has drifted.
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One of my old school beam scales... with a 50 gram weight on it. Still have my original Lyman I got out of a kit from the late 70's too.
Analog is still good to go and no power required! I've thrown out early electronic scales/dispensers cause they go belly up with age. This RCBS I bought used around 1984, still works.
Analog is still good to go and no power required! I've thrown out early electronic scales/dispensers cause they go belly up with age. This RCBS I bought used around 1984, still works.
You ever find ZCOs facility in Austria guy?
An RCBS 304 Dial-o-Grain has been on my want list for a long time. Just don't NEED one enough to pay the high prices they bring.
"What are you gonna do when the 2022 EMP hits and all your electronics are toast?"
I actually posted that in jest but a lot of times jokes and sarcasm are much closer to the truth than anything else. Kinda like the Babylon Bee.
Seriously though, get some actual printed manuals while you're at it. Not just about reloading either. Once they kill the power grid shit's gonna get real...
Kill the power grid….Do you really think the women of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina would even think of tolerating such an action? Killing the power grid will raise a revolution the likes the world has never seen. With Southern women leading the way; it will be a slaughter.Once they kill the power grid shit's gonna get real...
The air conditioning will be back on in a week and the country north of the Mason Dixon line will be a waste land.
So fellows of the north, do your best to convince hyden joe biden to cool it. A scorned southern woman shows no mercy, even to the innocent. Hell hath no fury like a southern woman who has been scorned.
Texas power grid failure ,
Hurricane IDA in south Louisiana
Have enough loaded ammo.
Have a power conditioner when running your scale off generator power.
Hurricane IDA in south Louisiana
Have enough loaded ammo.
Have a power conditioner when running your scale off generator power.
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you can read but you cant see because you dont have good scale to see that. good scale is 5000$+.
so you can only trust people, who know the stuf, and be quiet.
i did buy one few years ago, but it wasnt what I wanted. i am more satesfied with scales dedicated to reloading, like rcbs m500.
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Lol….there are pharmaceutical and other such laboratories using scales far cheaper than $5k.
How many try and evaluate scale errors instead of just calibrating at one point?
Here is a 300 gram, milligram indicating scale that calibrates @ 200 grams.
Notice that there is linearity error at 100 grams. I typically get 100.002 or 100.003 but the HVAC is cycling on and off this morning and I'm getting an extra 1 or two counts of "Drift". These readings are very repeatable day to day.
This 300 gram scale is not sensitive enough to trickle kernals. I also have to run it off AC as the rechargeable SLA battery won't hold a good charge.
Sitting next to the coffee pot isn't helping either
Last night I sorted out some 75gr Amax. Had a range of 74.6gn to 75.2gn in one box. Kept out 75 +/- 0.1 gr to load in those sorted cases.
How close do you guys sort cases and bullets?
Here is a 300 gram, milligram indicating scale that calibrates @ 200 grams.
Notice that there is linearity error at 100 grams. I typically get 100.002 or 100.003 but the HVAC is cycling on and off this morning and I'm getting an extra 1 or two counts of "Drift". These readings are very repeatable day to day.
This 300 gram scale is not sensitive enough to trickle kernals. I also have to run it off AC as the rechargeable SLA battery won't hold a good charge.
Sitting next to the coffee pot isn't helping either
Last night I sorted out some 75gr Amax. Had a range of 74.6gn to 75.2gn in one box. Kept out 75 +/- 0.1 gr to load in those sorted cases.
How close do you guys sort cases and bullets?
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Look again. The scale pictured is a reloading scale and has RCBS written all over it. It reads in grains (MOA), not those communist grams (MIL).
indeed!Look again. The scale pictured is a reloading scale and has RCBS written all over it. It reads in grains (MOA), not those communist grams (MIL).
it's rcbs, not ohaus like mine and others: https://us.ohaus.com/en-US/Dial-O-GramandCent-O-Gram300Series
but like i said; this design was not good. 'ordinary' reloading scales are better for me.
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Someone say scales..lol
You guys would be surprised what scale is actually needed and the procedures that need to be in place to guarantee function in a laboratory environment.
The most expensive scale is almost always not the solution. If it was we’d just write the check and throw all the SOP’s out the window.
You guys would be surprised what scale is actually needed and the procedures that need to be in place to guarantee function in a laboratory environment.
The most expensive scale is almost always not the solution. If it was we’d just write the check and throw all the SOP’s out the window.
Most overlooked spec with scales…their targeted range which conforms to the advertised +/-
Just because a scale is .001 +/- etc, it doesn’t mean it’s that accurate for the whole scale capacity range.
Like most things there is a sweet spot which is most accurate and then it becomes less accurate by design not by default.
Think bell curve/standard deviations, same with scale accuracy
Just because a scale is .001 +/- etc, it doesn’t mean it’s that accurate for the whole scale capacity range.
Like most things there is a sweet spot which is most accurate and then it becomes less accurate by design not by default.
Think bell curve/standard deviations, same with scale accuracy
I turn on my RCBS Chargemaster scale/dispenser and let it warm up before use. After going through the calibration sequence the scale display returns to zero, then I place the pan on the scale. The weight indicated is 161.5g. After 45 minutes of warm up, 162.3g is indicated on the display.
If I zero the scale, dispense 45.0g of powder and leave it on the scale for a while, the display will drift by as much as 0.3g in about 20 minutes.
I've loaded a lot of .308 Winchester and .223 ammunition that shot sub MOA at 300 yards using the RCBS Chargemaster.
Procedures?
Did someone say 'Turning Points' ?
I've spent hours swinging and adjusting weights.
In a Standards Laboratory Environment the most accurate digital scales are used as Comparators.
BTW, the house has warmed up and the HVAC is staying off.
This cheapo 300 gram scale with 1 milligram resolution, has returned to the + 0.002 gram non-linearity @ 100 grams.
This is stable and repeatable and can be normalized out of any comparisons.
Shown are my reference standard, working standard, and three test weights measured with this process.
Two 100 gram and a 200 gram.
.
By repeating measurements it's pretty easy to compare 100 gram weights to better than +/- 0.002 gram with this cheapo scale.
Not good enough for a lab, but for home use by a retired metrologist, not bad.
Did someone say 'Turning Points' ?
I've spent hours swinging and adjusting weights.
In a Standards Laboratory Environment the most accurate digital scales are used as Comparators.
BTW, the house has warmed up and the HVAC is staying off.
This cheapo 300 gram scale with 1 milligram resolution, has returned to the + 0.002 gram non-linearity @ 100 grams.
This is stable and repeatable and can be normalized out of any comparisons.
Shown are my reference standard, working standard, and three test weights measured with this process.
Two 100 gram and a 200 gram.
By repeating measurements it's pretty easy to compare 100 gram weights to better than +/- 0.002 gram with this cheapo scale.
Not good enough for a lab, but for home use by a retired metrologist, not bad.
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with what did you check your weights, rocketwapor?
I check mine with mettler & toledo XP 205 in controled laboratory...
I check mine with mettler & toledo XP 205 in controled laboratory...
I check mine with a $50 scale in the Kitchen I'm retired. Metrology is now a HOBBY.
Most of my standards have expired but I'll take good care of them and just live with them.
My standards are 1, 10, 100, 1000 grams. I can combine/sub divide to other values with reduced accuracy.
I would love to have a scale with at least another digit but what I have is OK for now.
My 3Kg scale has 10 milligram resolution and can't even see the reported difference in 1KG (expired Class 1) weights.
2.5mg tolerance, reported difference is almost a whole milligram. I can't tell the difference.
Digital scales have improved since I retired in 2010.
The NASA contractor Lab I ran had gone to digital in the 90's (Rice Lake Mass Comparator) and swinging weights went away.
One problem was educating the scale users was buoyancy corrections for less dense materials.
My 100 gram weight has now drifted to 100.001 grams indicated. Been sitting on the scale since this morning. Hope it drifts back up a count.
Temperature is up to 72.3F. Maybe I have a negative temperature coefficient.
Never mind, back to 100.002
I'm retired. Metrology is now a HOBBY.Most of my standards have expired but I'll take good care of them and just live with them.
My standards are 1, 10, 100, 1000 grams. I can combine/sub divide to other values with reduced accuracy.
I would love to have a scale with at least another digit but what I have is OK for now.
My 3Kg scale has 10 milligram resolution and can't even see the reported difference in 1KG (expired Class 1) weights.
2.5mg tolerance, reported difference is almost a whole milligram. I can't tell the difference.
Digital scales have improved since I retired in 2010.
The NASA contractor Lab I ran had gone to digital in the 90's (Rice Lake Mass Comparator) and swinging weights went away.
One problem was educating the scale users was buoyancy corrections for less dense materials.
My 100 gram weight has now drifted to 100.001 grams indicated. Been sitting on the scale since this morning. Hope it drifts back up a count.
Temperature is up to 72.3F. Maybe I have a negative temperature coefficient.
Never mind, back to 100.002
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How ever much you spend on a scale or check weights,
Be careful of these cheap Chinese sets.
Chrome plated magnetic steel and rarely meet any kind of tolerance.
I picked up a bag of 1 gram weights pulled from sets that were awful.
Don't remember what I paid for them but it was like 10 cents a piece.
Bought about $3 worth
The ones that were heavy I worked down, the light ones, oh well.
Here's a couple on the scale (10 plus 1 gram).
If you got a bad set, could you tell?
The worst one on the left is what? About 0.34 grains light?
Be careful of these cheap Chinese sets.
Chrome plated magnetic steel and rarely meet any kind of tolerance.
I picked up a bag of 1 gram weights pulled from sets that were awful.
Don't remember what I paid for them but it was like 10 cents a piece.
Bought about $3 worth
The ones that were heavy I worked down, the light ones, oh well.
Here's a couple on the scale (10 plus 1 gram).
If you got a bad set, could you tell?
The worst one on the left is what? About 0.34 grains light?
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