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Rifle Scopes Scope my Havak for $2,500

Conrad101st

Conrad101st

Captain
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 8, 2009
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OK
So bought I bought the Seekins Havak in 300 WM.

I have a finnlight 75 in 300 WM for humping the dark woods and sitting in a tree stand. The Havak is going to be a medium weight ridge gun out to 800 yards (+/) for elk.

Thinking 4-16 ATACR first plane with MOAR reticle.

Any other thoughts??
 
Isn't there still a few NF demos lying around. Thought I saw an ATACR 4-16x42 F1 for $2100.
 
The ATACR has a 42mm objective which is going to be limited in low light situations, if you don't plan on shooting in low light it's an excellent choice; however, even better would be a used Tangent Theta TT315M you won't find a better scope at this weight and you can still find the original design Premier LT 3-15x50 for under $1500. The Vortex AMG 6-24x50 is an outstanding scope for tactical/hunter rigs, but another even better scope is the Minox ZP5 5-25x56 which you can find used under your budget, I recommend the MR4 reticle...

AMG in the foreground and Minox in the background
20161021_Minox_ZP5_Vortex_AMG_0002.jpg


MinoxMR4reticle.jpg


VortexEBR-7Breticle.jpg


Here is the Premier LT 3-15x50, man I miss this scope!
Chanlynn7SAUM_0004.jpg
 
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ATACR 4-16 with MILC reticle and it is not limited in low light. It compared very favorably to my 3-15x50 Premier. AMG is another solid choice. Mark5 if weight is a concern.
 
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I’m trying to figure this one out myself . I’m thinking one of the 5-25 ATACARs. I haven’t received my HAVAK yet. I believe with any of the 5-25 ATACARs the rifles weight should be around 10-10.5 pounds with rings ,muzzle brake ,loaded mag. That is not awful compared to a lot of 300win mags being packed around for shooting longer hunting ranges . My thought on the 5-25 is it can help me count horns at a lil farther distance if need be .
 
Conrad said:
ATACR 4-16 with MILC reticle and it is not limited in low light.
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That is a misleading statement, all scopes are limited to their light gathering capabilities based on their objective lens by and large, this ultimately translates to the specification called "exit pupil" and in low light situations our eyes begin to be stressed at around 7mm for a good/healthy eye; however, it could be lower for some. So just because when you look through a 42mm scope vs a 50mm scope and you cannot perceive the difference it doesn't mean there is not a difference. Other things like multicoating, quality of the glass used which could translate to light transmission, etc. may also have an effect on how one perceives the low light capability of any given scope.
 
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CuTm said:
I’m trying to figure this one out myself . I’m thinking one of the 5-25 ATACARs. I haven’t received my HAVAK yet. I believe with any of the 5-25 ATACARs the rifles weight should be around 10-10.5 pounds with rings ,muzzle brake ,loaded mag. That is not awful compared to a lot of 300win mags being packed around for shooting longer hunting ranges . My thought on the 5-25 is it can help me count horns at a lil farther distance if need be .
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You seem pretty convinced on the ATACR's, nothing wrong with that but I will tell you the 5-25 really struggles with FOV at the bottom end and both the AMG and Minox ZP5 have better FOV at the bottom of their mag range (but the NF picks up in FOV as you advance through the mag range), may not matter for you but just wanted to point that out along with the fact the NF weighs more.

Here's a quick and handy chart to help you compare specs:

1536261477703.png
 
wjm308 said:
They pop up every now and then in the Hide classifieds, they are not often but if you keep watch they do pop up, here's some examples
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-15x50-genii-xr-reticle-1450-shipped.6890974/
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/fs-premier-heritage-light-tactical.6880796/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links but it sounds like they pop up once every couple months at that price and sell within a couple hours. Probably need to hit the for sale section at just the right time or check every hour or two for months. Some folks may enjoy scrounging tough the classifieds that often not me no thanks my time is way too valuable.

OP the ATACR demo was actually $2049 not $2100.
 
roamin said:
Thanks for the links but it sounds like they pop up once every couple months at that price and sell within a couple hours. Probably need to hit the for sale section at just the right time or check every hour or two for months. Some folks may enjoy scrounging tough the classifieds that often not me no thanks my time is way too valuable.
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I never said they were frequent, just that it’s possible
 
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My comparison between the NF and Premier was an effort to to validate that the 42mm obj can compete due to the optical design the NF scope possesses. I compared on a moonlit night and specifically set each scope on a magnification to make sure the exit pupils were the same. I then set them on the same power just out of curiosity and I could still make the same shot. You are going to turn the scope down to shoot at night almost always anyway. I’ve always read most pupils can’t dilate much past 5mm naturally especially as we age. If we use your number of 7mm, then that’s still only 6x with a 42mm and 8x with a 56mm so the difference isn’t much.....

I can tell you when I was shooting nutria in a creek at night with my NF they sure hated it when I perceived them to be behind my reticle and I pulled the trigger. Additionally the green illumination in the NF scopes is awesome, super clean.


wjm308 said:
That is a misleading statement, all scopes are limited to their light gathering capabilities based on their objective lens by and large, this ultimately translates to the specification called "exit pupil" and in low light situations our eyes begin to be stressed at around 7mm for a good/healthy eye; however, it could be lower for some. So just because when you look through a 42mm scope vs a 50mm scope and you cannot perceive the difference it doesn't mean there is not a difference. Other things like multicoating, quality of the glass used which could translate to light transmission, etc. may also have an effect on how one perceives the low light capability of any given scope.
Click to expand...
 
Conrad said:
My comparison between the NF and Premier was an effort to to validate that the 42mm obj can compete due to the optical design the NF scope possesses. I compared on a moonlit night and specifically set each scope on a magnification to make sure the exit pupils were the same. I then set them on the same power just out of curiosity and I could still make the same shot. You are going to turn the scope down to shoot at night almost always anyway. I’ve always read most pupils can’t dilate much past 5mm naturally especially as we age. If we use your number of 7mm, then that’s still only 6x with a 42mm and 8x with a 56mm so the difference isn’t much.....

I can tell you when I was shooting nutria in a creek at night with my NF they sure hated it when I perceived them to be behind my reticle and I pulled the trigger. Additionally the green illumination in the NF scopes is awesome, super clean.
Click to expand...

What optical design are you referring to with the NF? Are you saying that NF somehow figured out how to get more light out of 42mm objective than other scopes can out of a 50mm? Again, I'm going to say it's more your perception than it is reality. Our eye is an amazingly designed organ which can compensate for all kinds of situations, when we are talking light levels most people cannot differentiate between minute differences, but that doesn't mean they are not there. During some evaluations recently I was comparing a couple of 44mm scopes to a couple of 50mm and at first I could not see a difference, I had to look very hard at minute detail and only then did I see a slight performance degradation from the 44mm scopes, and this was at 12x which is going to be a smaller exit pupil than 7mm because I want my eye to be stressed and have to work harder to see detail. Keep in mind that if you have very good eyes you may be able to more clearly see detail in harsh or stressed situations vs. someone who does not have "good" eyes (good being a relative term here). As an example, a fellow shooter from Texas owned the very same NF ATACR F1 4-16x42 and then bought a TT315M and was able to tell a big difference in low light and detail, so he sold his NF; almost the same scopes as you tested but very different results. And we see this a lot on the forums, and not just with low light and objectives, these are "subjective" tests based on our own experience and based on "our own eyes" so we can only give our opinion from our perspective, if we were to take the same scopes in a lab with a photo-spectrometer I would imagine we would see a difference between the scopes. However, what does it matter what a measurement device can do when the measurement device that really matters is our own eye, this is why it is so important for the person looking into the scope to get one to test because you and my friend from Texas would disagree on the performance of the NF. Does that mean that you or he is wrong, not at all, it just means that you had different experiences and may also mean the acuity of your eyes may be different allowing you to see more detail where he was not. I said your comment was "misleading" because you are recommending a 42mm objective scope based on your own subjective experience; however, to an older person or someone who does not have as good of eyes as you, you may be steering them in the wrong direction where a 50mm or larger diameter objective scope would, in fact, be a benefit for them. That being said, I agree that many modern designs have improved greatly in low light performance and the margins are getting less than they were even 5 years ago.
 
I used the word design to mean whatever combination of lenses, placement and coatings NF is using to achieve that scopes performance. You’re right in everything you say and the NF is simply good enough for my eyes and the low light shots I was making. It’s fair to say that it might not have been good enough for some one else So the larger objective in a comparable quality scope should help assure they maximize low light performance.
 
In that price range and for what you're looking for a few great options are the Minox ZP5 3-15, Nightforce ATACR 4-16 and Vortex AMG.
@Conrad101st If you'd like to give us a call at 916-670-1103 we'd be happy to help you pick the best option for you :)
 
stello1001 said:
Lol, you asked for the help...
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Why do you say that. Are you suggesting that I need to be the one who asked for help to just thank another for their suggestion? Seems asinine but ok.
 
roamin said:
Why do you say that. Are you suggesting that I need to be the one who asked for help to just thank another for their suggestion? Seems asinine but ok.
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It just seems like a good suggestion was given and you turned it down. Honestly, it doesn't hurt me and if you have the money to pay full price then go ahead, no need to scavenge around here in the used items for sale.
 
Would anyone recomend the uso B17? Im just curious if that is just residual feelings for how people liked the LR 17 or if the B17 is just not in the running at all? I have a similar dilemma but recently my wife told me to just get the scope I'd be happy with the longest. So I got thinking of the PM2 3-20 (not the super short) that combined with their new reticle became very appealing. I also had a chance to take a look at the leupold Mk5 3.5-18 and was impressed.
 
I have spent a lot of time behind my NF 4-16 ATACR and Premier LT - and I did a fairly comprehensive t&e with the March 3-24x52. For the intended use you're describing they will all work but the March is the most complete package.

Edit to add I have also owned the USO 3.2-17x44 and currently have the S&B 3-20 US. If weight is of no co concern and you intend running a cheek piece the Schmidt is awesome, the USO is a fine scope but again, for a Seekins Havak mid weight hunting rifle I do not believe you can do better than the March.
 
stello1001 said:
It just seems like a good suggestion was given and you turned it down. Honestly, it doesn't hurt me and if you have the money to pay full price then go ahead, no need to scavenge around here in the used items for sale.
Click to expand...

Right.
 
I have a Nightforce and a Vortex AMG I would take the AMG any day of the week glass is better recticle is better and I think the turrets actually even feel better and I’m a Nightforce fan
 
wjm308 said:
The ATACR has a 42mm objective which is going to be limited in low light situations, if you don't plan on shooting in low light it's an excellent choice; however, even better would be a used Tangent Theta TT315M you won't find a better scope at this weight and you can still find the original design Premier LT 3-15x50 for under $1500. The Vortex AMG 6-24x50 is an outstanding scope for tactical/hunter rigs, but another even better scope is the Minox ZP5 5-25x56 which you can find used under your budget, I recommend the MR4 reticle...

AMG in the foreground and Minox in the background
View attachment 6941116

View attachment 6941117

View attachment 6941122

Here is the Premier LT 3-15x50, man I miss this scope!
View attachment 6941120
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Sir, what rings and height are you using in that picture with the Minox ZP5 TAC 5-25x56 w/ MR4 R?
 
Conrad101st said:
Sir, what rings and height are you using in that picture with the Minox ZP5 TAC 5-25x56 w/ MR4 R?
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That was when the ZP5 was on my Bighorn TL2 with medium Palma barrel and I used ARC M10 .94” low rings, but recently I moved the the ZP5 to the Winchester M70 with PROOF heavy Sendero contour and the Tenebraex cap was touching so had to use some Seekins 1” I had sitting around it it clears fine. I prefer ARC M10’s and their medium 1.1” would work well too. So it’ll depend on your action, rail and bbl contour
 
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wjm308 said:
That was when the ZP5 was on my Bighorn TL2 with medium Palma barrel and I used ARC M10 .94” low rings, but recently I moved the the ZP5 to the Winchester M70 with PROOF heavy Sendero contour and the Tenebraex cap was touching so had to use some Seekins 1” I had sitting around it it clears fine. I prefer ARC M10’s and their medium 1.1” would work well too. So it’ll depend on your action, rail and bbl contour
Click to expand...

Solid setups @wjm308 , if you need another Minox so you don't need to move them from one rifle to the next let me know :cool:


J/K, I know what you're waiting for :D
 
CSTactical said:
Solid setups @wjm308 , if you need another Minox so you don't need to move them from one rifle to the next let me know :cool:


J/K, I know what you're waiting for :D
Click to expand...
Haha, hopefully in a couple months a sweet looking scope that starts with Z and ends with O will be sitting on the Bighorn or... ;)
 
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Sir,
I get I am a newbie here but have been looking at whitetails in low light for 30 yrs and spent some years selling optics as well. I have a 5-25 ATACR, 6-24x72 zeiss victory, NF 3-15 NXS, swarovski 2.5-10x50, and a Schmidt zenith 2.5-10x56. When comparing them at deer, from my stand without artificial light, the Schmidt beats them all FOR ME. I do love the green with the ATACR and they are waaaaay brighter than NXS
I said all that to say try as many as you can in a hunting scenario. As you will likely be counting points or antler size, look at little things like leaves, bark, anything with specific detail.
Sometimes local stores will let you show up around dark and walk outside to compare scopes (especially when you are shopping in this price range)
As someone said before, you asked.....
 
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