Suppressors "Semi" Permanent .300BLK Attachment Ideas for non-SBR States?

[Strykervet]

***(Edit: The original idea I propose here won't work, not as intended. Will need to directly blind pin the suppressor to the barrel if I can do it at all, legal and how I want it, and hopefully warrantied, which all pose other problems.)***

Hi, I'm in a non-SBR state. So we come up with shit like blind pinned AAC SDN-6 mounts on M4 carbines just to lose the 1.5"

Anyway, I'd like what goes for a suppressed PDW. A small and light .300BLK. I already have a 16" AAC and love it, so I'd really like to take advantage of the short barrels, from 8.5 to 12.5 or so. I'd like a carbine FF rail or whatever longest will fit without intruding on the suppressor. I was thinking about using a KAC URX3 since the bottom comes off for access to the barrel nut. I use non-FF KAC rails on my M4's for similar reasons, they need to be tightened from time to time.

So that taken care of, what I need now is a suppressor I can weld to the end of the barrel that brings the length to 16-16.5" and works well to boot. Now what I had in mind was to find the appropriate suppressor, and permanently weld a 1/4" or so nut or ring to the end that is threaded the same as the barrel while threaded on an older barrel or an appropriately threaded rod so as to keep everything perfectly inline.

Then on the rifle, ideally having an extra 1/2" threaded on the end, tack (or permanently?) weld another 1/4" or so nut or ring w/same ID but smaller OD to the end of the barrel, having been ground down and properly indexed to the suppressor in the first place.

Final step, thread on the suppressor using some kind of sealant that will prevent carbon buildup, which ideally will be indexed for accuracy, and tack weld the two nuts or rings where they meet.

This would basically be a permanently suppressed 16" AR. AAC sells a suppressor just for this in 5.56 but not .300BLK so it isn't entirely unpopular, particularly in no SBR land.

Ultimately, you could use a lightweight barrel and when it has reached its round count, remove it like normal, then using a dremel or such, carefully cut the welds so as not to damage the welded ring on the suppressor. Touch this up with a file, clean out the suppressor really well, and repeat with a new barrel.

Am I missing anything here? Won't this make me a legal (but 16" and perm.) suppressed shorty? Won't this retain accuracy due to indexing it, or am I missing something here too? And won't this be "permanent" by definition, since cutting is involved? I mean, it is for the AAC 5.56 can...

What do you guys think? Am I out there, or is this a feasible way around the law while staying legal? I've had talks with some manufacturers that say while it voids some warranties, it will in fact work with rifles. AAC said it would be okay and wouldn't violate warranty IF they were to make a .30 can that had that nut attached like their 5.56 does. Apparently, according to AAC, it won't clog up enough to worry about using a rifle with rifle ammo, 5.56 or .300BLK by the time the barrel is smoked.

Finally, any recommendations for cans that would suit this endeavor over others? What about reliable, yet light contour barrels, non-chromed?

Thanks for reading.

 

[WileyG]

You can do all that but DO NOT have the SBR upper with you in non-SBR states. And I'm not sure tack welding passes the 'permanent' test

 

[KYS]

Reading all that made my hear hurt. You are getting to complex. You can either cut down your barrel and weld a can on it or not do it at all.

Tac welds and threading nuts and so on is over complicating the idea. Also tac welds are not permanent thus not compliant with NFA regs.

 

[Delta4-3]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-d-i-y/193069-diy-ar-15-free-float-hgs.html

Look at the first picture. You could do something along those lines.

 

[ddavis]

If you are willing to go through all that trouble, find someone to make you a barrel shroud similar to the Tac-Sol SB-X. Then you can remove your suppressor if you ever need to and still have a 16" barrel:

tac-sol sb-x - Google Search

 

[Strykervet]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yeah, I can sort of tend to over-complicate things, but it is the engineer and designer in my blood. Looking over my post, it also seems to sound a lot more complicated that it is in my mind. Also, when I buy or build a short upper or barrel, I generally have it all welded up and done by Rainier's welder before I take it home to avoid any constructive possession BS should it somehow become an issue. Besides, I can't use it until then anyway.

I don't really want the long rail or tube that brings the weapon out to 16" with a shorter barrel inside. I have a few reasons for not wanting that. I've looked at the Liberty too, but I'm not so sure I want that either.

Maybe I didn't define "tack weld" as I may be thinking of it. I'm pretty dumb when it comes to welding. I mean a weld that would be no-shit "permanent" yet not so perfect as to render the can unusable when the barrel is shot out. I'd like a nice weld on both the barrel and the can though. I'd like the weld strong enough such that it would render the barrel useless were torque applied, therefore making it permanent as I understand it.

I figured I could make the two rings, the one that welds on the barrel and the one that welds on the can, by simply slicing a couple of flash hiders with the same threading, then resurfacing the one to index the can before welding. Those two rings would then be welded together, just not with a super strong continuous bead.

This idea was mostly to find a way around the BS, stay legal and be able to index and reuse the can all at once. But I suppose if it weren't indexed, then what about welding a heavy non-threaded ring on a regular .30 thread on can a few thousands larger than the barrel and about .5 or so inches. Then blind pinning that to the barrel. I know this would be legal here, it is the common way of doing it around WA if you go this route (perm. attaching items I mean). The Boeing welder that does the work for Rainier, and thus me, looks to be very, very skilled if pictures compared online mean anything. Almost invisible.

Anyway, would that at least preserve the can? I mean, can you remove a blind pin without damaging the part that is pinned? Excuse me if I sound dumb here, but I told you I know very little about welding. And if you were to weld a ring onto a .30 can, what would be the best one to do this with that is sort of short? Thanks again.

 

[KYS]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yeah, I can sort of tend to over-complicate things, but it is the engineer and designer in my blood. Looking over my post, it also seems to sound a lot more complicated that it is in my mind. Also, when I buy or build a short upper or barrel, I generally have it all welded up and done by Rainier's welder before I take it home to avoid any constructive possession BS should it somehow become an issue. Besides, I can't use it until then anyway.

I don't really want the long rail or tube that brings the weapon out to 16" with a shorter barrel inside. I have a few reasons for not wanting that. I've looked at the Liberty too, but I'm not so sure I want that either.

Maybe I didn't define "tack weld" as I may be thinking of it. I'm pretty dumb when it comes to welding. I mean a weld that would be no-shit "permanent" yet not so perfect as to render the can unusable when the barrel is shot out. I'd like a nice weld on both the barrel and the can though. I'd like the weld strong enough such that it would render the barrel useless were torque applied, therefore making it permanent as I understand it.

I figured I could make the two rings, the one that welds on the barrel and the one that welds on the can, by simply slicing a couple of flash hiders with the same threading, then resurfacing the one to index the can before welding. Those two rings would then be welded together, just not with a super strong continuous bead.

This idea was mostly to find a way around the BS, stay legal and be able to index and reuse the can all at once. But I suppose if it weren't indexed, then what about welding a heavy non-threaded ring on a regular .30 thread on can a few thousands larger than the barrel and about .5 or so inches. Then blind pinning that to the barrel. I know this would be legal here, it is the common way of doing it around WA if you go this route (perm. attaching items I mean). The Boeing welder that does the work for Rainier, and thus me, looks to be very, very skilled if pictures compared online mean anything. Almost invisible.

Anyway, would that at least preserve the can? I mean, can you remove a blind pin without damaging the part that is pinned? Excuse me if I sound dumb here, but I told you I know very little about welding. And if you were to weld a ring onto a .30 can, what would be the best one to do this with that is sort of short? Thanks again.

FYI - if you shoot out a 300 Blackout barrel with subsonic ammo, chances are the can is toast to. That will take a LONG time.

Most guys I have talked to when they go to remove a pinned brake, the end up mangling the part of up pretty good. But since a barrel is worth more they try to preserve it over the muzzle device.
Either which way you go about this, something is getting welded and made permanent. There is no such thing as "semi" permanent. It either is or is not.

 

[ccoker]

Get an integrally supressed 16" upper

 

[Strykervet]

Get an integrally supressed 16" upper

That would be the Liberty. And then it isn't truly integral --you can't really do that well with a gas system. You wouldn't really want to with a .300BLK AR intended to use such a broad range of loads due to cycling issues. The Liberty, I recall, is nice in that you can take apart the suppressor, but are quite limited on the parts you can use --plus you have to use their can (which may or may not be nice, I don't know). But like I said, this isn't what I'm looking for either, I want to build an SBR (or host) the way I see fit only with a permanently attached suppressor.

I also did a little more research and found out my idea of welding the ring to the barrel isn't a good idea at all due to the heat and time it is applied to get the kind of weld I had in mind (I said I didn't know shit about welding). So I'd like to keep it to a blind pin at most. Now I've used that on AAC 51T FH mounts on two 5.56 M4's with great results, no problems.

Now what about removing blind pins? Can you remove a blind pin on a suppressor or mount and reuse that? Or does it essentially trash both the barrel and the can upon removal? Would anti-seize or say Rocksett prevent carbon buildup? Because if that occurred, it would be permanent after several thousand rounds, enough to trash the threads anyway.

I guess in the end, to make it short, is there a way to blind pin a .30 can to a 10 inch or so barrel and at the end of the barrel's life, reuse the can on a new barrel after extensive cleaning? Say re-pinning through the same hole a second time, is that possible?

 

[ccoker]

I think you are wanting to tread on very thin ice that could cost you 10 years and $250k

 

[Strykervet]

Well yeah, that is why I'm asking. I don't want to get in trouble. And the "integral" you speak of is the Liberty Leonidas: leonidas. But like I said, it isn't really a true integral, at least according to a few of the manufacturers I've discussed it with in the past. Basically it is kind of what I want to do though, but with more limitations on the parts used.

But I think perhaps you misunderstand me here. When I say "SBR the way I want it" I mean literally that, only with a suppressor permanently attached to bring it to 16+" so that it technically wouldn't be an SBR anymore but rather an "integral" of sorts. This idea isn't new. AAC already makes a suppressor designed for this only in 5.56, check it out: RANGER3™.

Now I called AAC and they said the only thing holding me back is that they don't offer a suppressor like that one in .30 with that extended threaded end, and if I weld one on one of theirs myself, that it will void the warranty. Otherwise good to go they say, fouling shouldn't be problematic with the .300BLK they say. I haven't called other makers yet to ask if they'd do this for me in order to maintain warranty.

I suppose then I have the mechanics of this down now though... Find the right can with a threaded nib and blind pin it properly. I may call Elite Iron and ask them if they can do it, I have to get a .50 can from them later this year and I know their larger cans have nuts welded on the end. That would be great if they could do that with a .30 can, maybe make it shorter.

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

I've wondered why some enterprising Silencer mfg hasn't just made really long Flash Hider mounts for their silencers. All the non-sbr state people could then just pin and weld the flash hider's to their barrels and then attach the serial numbered Silencer body to the flash hider.

Seems like a sales point to me.

I've been toying with the idea of pinning my Liberty Constitution core onto a short barrel. I just need to order another .223 silencer for my other guns. It really sucks dangling a silencer off a 16" barreled AR.

 

[wfjames22]

How do you go about cleaning a barrel with a can permanently attached? I am picturing patches getting stuck inside the can, solvent running all in it without a way to clean it out, etc.

I am curious as to whether you have thought that through and what solutions you have come up with?

 

[ccoker]

Wilson Combat makes a "system" with a permanently attached brake on a 14.7" barrel and their Whisper Ti can installed makes it 16"

That is about as good as you are going to get and a pretty slick setup.

Anticipating your response I fail to see how a similiar setup with a shorter barrel achieves anything.

 

[Strykervet]

PBinWA, yeah, like a reflex suppressor? AAC used to make something like that for the SCAR? Didn't see it last time. It took a few inches off, and I may have gotten that one for my other rifles instead of the SDN-6 had it not been for limited threading and some other problem (I don't think it added enough length to the 14.5"bbl. which I also wanted to suppress --I use that one can for several rifles).

We need to change this SBR/SBS law in WA too (FA is a stretch at the moment I think). After all, we have been setting some precedents here lately. Legalization of suppressors was a pleasant surprise, though I'm told why we got it was largely from police backing due to hearing conservation/safety (which is a great idea, btw, for us all). Swat has 'em I'm sure, but cops wanted their own. Then I bet range noise was probably used as an argument too. Perhaps we can get the cops on our side for SBR's and such due to safety concerns as well.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, cleaning would be a pain in the ass and akin to an archeology dig or surgery, but I'm sure it can be done given AAC makes a 5.56 can for this purpose. I'm not so worried about patches as I am cleaning the muzzle/crown.

Ccoker:

That Wilson sounds cool... And in .30. I just wonder how quiet it is being that short, although I'm not TOO concerned provided it is hearing safe with subs. Says it is 4.5" longer (not 1.5, that would be a miracle) so that would be just under 20" with a 14.7 incher. I don't think I'll get much shorter either using a blind pinned one considering most .30 cans are about 7-8" --and I have to use a shorter bbl. I was just thinking 4" added would be okay to deal with too just before you chimed in. More velocity, better reliability too I bet.

Hey thanks Ccoker, and yeah, you're right and checkmate! I never heard of that and it looks like a damn good idea, I just have to check out how it performs now. I really like that it is titanium too, because keeping it light was a priority. Big thanks.

Go ahead and wrap this thread up unless anyone knows of something similar to that Wilson can worth checking out, or has something pertinent to add. Appreciate the replies guys.

 

[ccoker]

Read the description again real carefully

 

[Strykervet]

Read the description again real carefully

Don't get what you mean. "Short Suppressor Design Adds Only 4.5” Additional Length Over a Standard USGI A2 Flash Hider Equipped Rifle". It is 6-5/16" OAL. So if I got a 14.7"bbl. and blind pinned the mount (USGI length, right?) I'd be good to go and come in at under 20" overall. Which I'm fine with, hell, that is better than welding the whole unit. Or just rock a 16" barrel and call it good.

Either way, I like your suggestion about that can, it looks nice and probably would work for me.

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

ccoker - thanks for the Wilson Combat link. That may be my next can! It looks pretty short.

 

[ccoker]

If memory recalls it is the same length as a 16" with flash hider
So, 17.5-18" OAL

 

[Strykervet]

If memory recalls it is the same length as a 16" with flash hider
So, 17.5-18" OAL

Nah, I went and looked at it. Specs are as above. It weighs in at just over a pound, about 6.5" OAL with 4.5" added to a weapon with a USGI length flash hider. 1-7/8" wide, so it is almost as wide as the .50BMG suppressor I'll be getting.

I agree with PBinWA, it may be my next one as well. To get any better, we'll just need SBR legalized or else do the stupid welding and blind pinning shit. Which I can suffer for short carbine flash hiders, but wasn't exactly excited about attaching a suppressor that way. Ccoker, you showed us a way out, because I'd never heard of that can before, so I appreciate it. I bet a lot of folks from WA would be interested in those suppressors too. Since suppressors are about all we can really own NFA-wise (AOW and DD, but WTF? Nothing useful.) and they just got legalized, they are pretty damn popular now.

What'll just be the tits is if that thing works on 6.5G too. In that case, I've ordered a carbine barrel from Satern that should weigh about 1 pound, maybe a very tiny bit less. It is their old ultralight without the flash hider milled into it and it was 1.1lb. With a carbon fiber tube/rail, I should have an upper minus carrier group weigh in at about 3lbs, maybe a bit less! Crazy...

 

[KYS]

I've wondered why some enterprising Silencer mfg hasn't just made really long Flash Hider mounts for their silencers. All the non-sbr state people could then just pin and weld the flash hider's to their barrels and then attach the serial numbered Silencer body to the flash hider.

Seems like a sales point to me.

I've been toying with the idea of pinning my Liberty Constitution core onto a short barrel. I just need to order another .223 silencer for my other guns. It really sucks dangling a silencer off a 16" barreled AR.

Ask yourself this: What is the point of a SBR?

The point I tend to lean towards is a small package easy to maneuver or pack around. Cutting a barrel off at 12" then adding a 4" flash hider is doing nothing for your goal of maintaining a shorter overall rig.

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

The point I tend to lean towards is a small package easy to maneuver or pack around. Cutting a barrel off at 12" then adding a 4" flash hider is doing nothing for your goal of maintaining a shorter overall rig.

It is if you live in a state where your choice is to stick a suppressor on a 16" barrel and end up with a 21" long barrel. The only reason for the 4"-5" Flash Hider is to provide a mounting point or the silencer without having to commit the silencer 100% to that gun. The silencer moves around but the Flash Hider gets pinned to the barrel.

Even the Wilson Combat option referenced above will end up with an approx 18" overall barrel length.

 

[KYS]

It is if you live in a state where your choice is to stick a suppressor on a 16" barrel and end up with a 21" long barrel. The only reason for the 4"-5" Flash Hider is to provide a mounting point or the silencer without having to commit the silencer 100% to that gun. The silencer moves around but the Flash Hider gets pinned to the barrel.

Even the Wilson Combat option referenced above will end up with an approx 18" overall barrel length.

I completely understand the point you are trying to arrive at, but let me tell you.... you are going nowhere quick with the idea. What manufacturer would or could make a 4" flash hider that would actually work on any 30 cal suppressor?
Most mounts are 1.5" long, unless you go to a reflex style can in which it goes back over the barrel, not forward. You are left with cutting a barrel down, adding a 4" piece of pipe (same as barrel) that is basically a smooth bore section and hope that what exactly will fit it?

Sounds like spinning your wheels on a project that makes little sense. I would stick to the 14.5" pinned barrels with your choice of suppressor brake.

 

[ccoker]

Quote:
Sounds like spinning your wheels on a project that makes little sense. I would stick to the 14.5" pinned barrels with your choice of suppressor brake.


That is basically my advice and the Wilson can

Luckily I live in Texas and will be setting up a supressed SBR for pig whacking!

 

[Strykervet]

Quote:
Sounds like spinning your wheels on a project that makes little sense. I would stick to the 14.5" pinned barrels with your choice of suppressor brake.


That is basically my advice and the Wilson can

Luckily I live in Texas and will be setting up a supressed SBR for pig whacking!

Yeah, thanks again for your idea. Hopefully we can get this law changed here some day. In the meantime, that'll give me what I want --and then some, really.

The only weapon I really feel shafted over with the SBR shit is that .300BLK. It was just MADE to be short and nasty.