Should Have Worn Gloves?

[Veer_G]

I'm wondering if the rounds were really AP, or just a bullshit hammered-on definition applied by those still under political pressure to twist the truth?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/0...-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-ammunition.html

 

[Skunk]

Just M855

 

[ArmyJerry]

since when is making AP illegal and what do they mean by AP? I know there are green tips all over the place, I also know the tv report I seen mentioned tracers only, like its some kind of AP round.

fishy and fishier actions by the Justice Department, I want the fucking truth from these assholes. Who do they think they are hiding the truth ?

 

[Rthur]

WTF...
Now it's the ammo's fault and the poor SOB that sold it.
WHAT WAS THE MOTIVE?
Smoke and mirrors to hide the above.

R

 

[Veer_G]

Gladder and gladder still for all my 7N6.

 

[2ndamendfan]

The AP part is just to make the smoldering fire more impressive. The true charge will be manufacture/sale of ammunition with out a license/tax stamp. Ultimately it will be a "tax evasion" charge. Bullshit of course.

 

[Veer_G]

The AP part is just to make the smoldering fire more impressive. The true charge will be manufacture/sale of ammunition with out a license/tax stamp. Ultimately it will be a "tax evasion" charge. Bullshit of course.

Meanwhile, creating case law to throw at anyone who reloads for someone else ...

 

[2ndamendfan]

Meanwhile, creating case law to throw at anyone who reloads for someone else ...

Most definitely. Same as sharing your AR-15 jigs or your ghost gunner 2.

I just wanted to make sure it was clear that the type of ammo is only of concern to the media/libtards.

 

[308pirate]

The true charge will be manufacture/sale of ammunition with out a license/tax stamp.

If the guy took money for ammo he made, he might be fucked.

 

[308pirate]

Most definitely. Same as sharing your AR-15 jigs or your ghost gunner 2.

No, it's not the same.

Don't charge for gunsmithing or firearm manufacture when you don't have the appropriate FFL and you won't have a problem.

I don't know why that is hard to understand.

 

[ArmyJerry]

why is it against the law to sell ammo?

 

[ArmyJerry]

since when do you need fl to reload and sell ammo?

 

[308pirate]

Meanwhile, creating case law to throw at anyone who reloads for someone else ...

Did money change hands? Statutory law is pretty clear on this.

 

[ArmyJerry]

what law?

 

[308pirate]

Jerry, I've done my homework but I'm not going to do yours. It's not that hard and the ATF doesn't hide which activities, under what conditions, need an FFL and which ones do not.

 

[ArmyJerry]

okay I guess you do need a ffl to make and sell ammo. Strange, but it looks like it is the regulation. We need to get rid of the atf or at least the GCA 1968.

example i found

Example:

"Hey buddy, I've noticed that those .308 handloads of yours shoot really well. Can you load 40 rounds for me? I'll give you some money to cover your costs." - OK

"Can I buy 200 boxes to stock my gun store?" - NOT OK

 

[2ndamendfan]

No, it's not the same.

Don't charge for gunsmithing or firearm manufacture when you don't have the appropriate FFL and you won't have a problem.

I don't know why that is hard to understand.

Of course if money changes hands. Make the statement that you "rent" your tools out. While it has the is not a case through the courts yet. It has been discussed on many level. It is not a very big leap at all for a totalitarian goverment to make.

And as you state, gunsmithing. So if I install some sights on a friends gun and he buys me a beer I am now guilty.

 

[308pirate]

Of course if money changes hands. Make the statement that you "rent" your tools out. While it has the is not a case through the courts yet. It has been discussed on many level. It is not a very big leap at all for a totalitarian goverment to make.

And as you state, gunsmithing. So if I install some sights on a friends gun and he buys me a beer I am now guilty.

Reductio ad absurdum.......

 

[Holliday]

Funny, the way I read this article, it sounds like they are saying he was not licenced to make “Armor Piercing” ammo specifically.

“An Arizona man, previously identified as a person of interest in the Las Vegas shooting investigation, was charged by authorities Friday for manufacturing and selling armor-piercing bullets without having a proper license, according to court documents obtained by The Associated Press.”

Later they say:

“During a Friday news conference, Haig, who works as an aerospace engineer and has sold ammunition as a hobby for the last 25 years, said he didn't notice anything suspicious when he sold Paddock the bullets. Haig reportedly met Paddock at a gun show in Phoenix weeks before the shooting occurred.”

Not really mentioning that what he was doing for 25 years, irrespective of whether “armor piercing” or not, was illegal. That’s a long time to be selling ammo illegally.

I had a guy at the range one day looking for someone to load some 7mm ammo for a hunting trip. I advised him, though he could reimburse costs, he could NOT pay the person to do so, and to be careful on that point.

Ive never heard of a special license for armor piercings ammo so I assumed that the media once again was having a writing glitch......or just making shit up.

 

[FS1]

I heard both AP and tracer rounds. Last heard they were tracer and supposedly unused in the shooting. I wonder what is the Truth?

 

[Dewey7271]

Ok, is it just me or are there only like 5-6 empties in those pics? With all those rifles piled up so nicely, shouldn't the volume expended have spread empty cases?

 

[Maxduty]

Funny, the way I read this article, it sounds like they are saying he was not licenced to make “Armor Piercing” ammo specifically.

Ive never heard of a special license for armor piercings ammo so I assumed that the media once again was having a writing glitch......or just making shit up.

It is illegal to manufacture AP pistol ammo. With the creation of AR15/10 pistols, it is illegal to manufacture AP in the calibers they chamber. However the numbers they are throwing out that were exchanged are the same used in some case lots. Did he load them or resell a product?

 

[sandwarrior]

It is illegal to manufacture AP pistol ammo. With the creation of AR15/10 pistols, it is illegal to manufacture AP in the calibers they chamber. However the numbers they are throwing out that were exchanged are the same used in some case lots. Did he load them or resell a product?

He loaded them. As mentioned previously in this thread, if you build ammo for your friend, it's not a big deal. If you charge your friend/people for ammo, it is a big deal, as manufacturing ammo requires an FFL.

The only way he could beat this is if he could prove he loaded the ammo for himself, decided for whatever reason, that he no longer wanted it, then he could sell it to recoup his expenses.

It appears he's been making ammo on the side for a while. Not that that has a damn thing to do with the shooting. As mentioned also, all that shooting and maaaybeee(?) 100 rounds on the floor?

 

[Maxduty]

I saw this in the comments section of the linked page. Any truth to this? And if so and he didn't actually sell AP, they've got no leg to stand on.

 

[FS1]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/l...mmo-las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock-n844371

Tracer or AP? Remember the press cannot tell the difference between rimfire or Center fire ammo.

 

[Veer_G]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/l...mmo-las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock-n844371

Tracer or AP? Remember the press cannot tell the difference between rimfire or Center fire ammo.

Ask Yahoo News. They seem to inform governmental agencies and influence investigational surveillance.

 

[sandwarrior]

The bullets werre MSS109/M855. That's surplus with the steel penetrator. It's not AP, but some douchebag in the press has to call it that. Funny thing is that it's less lethal than the old 55 gr.

 

[supercorndogs]

The first article I read about this yesterday, mentioned they identified him from 3 loaded rounds on a table with his finger prints on them. According to this article they contacted him eleven hours after the shooting. So they finger printed the ammo and identified the prints in 11 hours. I have been the first to try and explain away some of the stink around this. It just keep looking worse.

 

[Strykervet]

The bullets werre MSS109/M855. That's surplus with the steel penetrator. It's not AP, but some douchebag in the press has to call it that. Funny thing is that it's less lethal than the old 55 gr.

M855 has the steel "penetrator" --it's not even pointed, just makes the tip harder. They were specifically designed to penetrate a Russian helmet at 200-300m IIRC. They aren't AP and as far as armor goes, only the "lvl3" polymer plates won't stop M855. All rifle rounds will penetrate soft armor. Now the AP 5.56, I forget it's designation, I was never issued it, has a tungsten penetrator like pretty much all AP ammo from small caliber to anti tank sabot rounds (turns out tungsten actually works better than DU at very high velocity due to shearing I think).

Even with that said, Raufoss ammo for the .50 is legal and also has RDX explosive in it, the maximum legal amount in a "product". Finding it for sale is another issue altogether, as is finding true AP ammo for almost any small caliber round, even if legal.

This is just another way for people with no background in firearms to stir up shit and make laws for those of us that do. I'm sick of it and wrote a letter saying as much.

 

[Strykervet]

Supposedly he had incendiary rounds to set off those fuel tanks. They didn't have the range (and likely wouldn't have penetrated).

Wonder if it was legal to sell ammo like that 25 years ago? Without an FFL I mean. The laws change so much it's hard to keep track. But M855 and tracers and incendiary don't require a "special" license. There's an ammo loading FFL but most get the mfg. FFL that allows you to mfg. firearms, sell firearms and ammo as well. I think there's one that allows mfg. of DD's, MG's and everything else and also allows mfg. of AP and HE ammo, but he wouldn't have needed that.

There's different licenses that let you do different things but I can't recall all the different ones and the specifics. I think the basic ammo mfg. license isn't that bad though and he's pretty stupid to not have one; I'm sure he had to have heard of it at some point. But again, I wonder if the law changed since he started or if there was a loophole for small mfg.'s. I want to say there was some gray area a while back but I'm not certain.

 

[ArmyJerry]

just an excuse to divert attention from the cover up.

 

[Holliday]

just an excuse to divert attention from the cover up.

I’m not a conspiracy theorist per-say, but I have to say, there is something really strange about this case.....

 

[Holliday]

He loaded them.

The only way he could beat this is if he could prove he loaded the ammo for himself, decided for whatever reason, that he no longer wanted it, then he could sell it to recoup his expenses.

Yep, A couple of key factors the ATF looks at: Length of time since manufacture and profit made. That said, it sounds like from the get-go he opened his pie-hole and admitted manufacturing for sale and profit.

 

[sandwarrior]

I’m not a conspiracy theorist per-say, but I have to say, there is something really strange about this case.....

From the original thread about this someone said, "That's a belt fed weapon." My first thought was how in the fuck could he tell?? Then I settled down and watched the video. Sure enough, the bursts are 12 seconds long and slow. You don't control a bump fire like that. And when you do they fire faster.

Later when I saw the pic of his demolished face and saw immediately, that he had been dead for a while. They said they took the pic right after they got done searching the room. There is hard dried blood under his head. And the massive pool of blood you see, although wet, is not fresh. I guess you'd had to have butchered pigs and cows to know what blood looks like over time.

This is not a conspiracy theory, it is a conspiracy.