SHTF LPVO?

LeadZeke

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Looking for a "do it all" LPVO for SHTF (or whatever we are calling a general upending of normal life this week). Home defense is taken care of already with a T2, I'm looking for an LPVO or similar that is almost as fast/durable and with as low a signature (no/low forward light emission). What I want the LPVO to bring to the table that the T2 cannot is more magnification and the best recticle possible for a world that could be without batteries. A reticle that can work well on 1x without illumination, in conjunction with a white light, and also stretch out at 6-10x and be usable. Price isn't much of an issue. So far I'm considering:

1.) Khales K16i (SM1 reticle) or K18i (3GR reticle).

2.) Vortex Razor Gen II-E or Gen III.

3.) S&B Short Dots - maybe dual CC?

4.) Elcan 1x/4x.

5.) Maybe the 1-4x or 1-6x Accupoint for the fiberoptic?

Why no ACOG? Terrible eye box and slow up close, at least for me and my eyes.

Will primarily be used on a 13.9in AR15 and 14.5in AR10. Any feedback is welcome.
 

2muchcowbell

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2.) Vortex Razor Gen II-E or Gen III.

I've heard that the Gen III 1-10 has fantastic illumination and is practically a red-dot at 1x.

Why no ACOG? Terrible eye box and slow up close, at least for me and my eyes.
Okay, you got me on the eyebox. 😅 But I've run splits with an Eotech and my ACOG, and the results are comparable. My splits are only about 0.1 s slower with the ACOG. ED: going from low ready to shots on target suffers by about 0.2s or so compared to the Eotech, but I still consider it a feasible option.
 
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drewthebrave

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Of the ones you listed, I'd probably go for the Razor II-E 1-6. For the money, it's really hard to beat. If money was no object, S&B or Kahles would probably get the nod.
 

chrome

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If price ain't an issue, S&B CC seems to hit all the normal (and extraordinary) wickets.
 

kcormack

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I have a S&B 1.25-4x20 in the classifieds right now. Sounds like it may fit your need. Made in Hungary with all the components of a German made S&B.
 

CrabsandFootball

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If you can find one, the Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5 has been my favorite. MIL hash reticle with the Donut of Death, FFP, illuminated (still usable in decent light without it).
They Suck ass compared to those listed. Not daylight bright, tight eyebox,ect. For $700 they are a decent option but any LPVO not daylight bright is worthless as fuck.
 

CrabsandFootball

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Of the ones you listed, I'd probably go for the Razor II-E 1-6. For the money, it's really hard to beat. If money was no object, S&B or Kahles would probably get the nod.
No its shit compared to the offerings. Not FFP, the reticle sucks and only 6x.

SHTF/Combat optics should always be FFP.
 

CavScout85

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I chose the 1-8 Vcog. Going to look at the G3 1-10 Razor when I can get my hands on one.
 

LeadZeke

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Thanks for the suggestions and info so far. Incoming wall of text:

I should have laid this out in the OP, my #1 goal for this LPVO (after durability/reliability) is speed at 1x WITHOUT illumination. Reason being, once there are no more batteries after such an event, I'd like to have an optic that is still faster than irons up close and from odd positions. In such a situation PID is important too, as is the additional LR capability and everything I laid out in the OP. But I have other optics that can do most of that stuff already, while nothing I own can do 1x battery-less CQB with speed (at least not super well).

As such the LPVO or similar optic I'm looking for needs a very forgiving eyebox with a wide 1x FOV, and of course fast recticle even when not illuminated (ex: an improved thick German #4). Unfortunately given what is in my local area I won't be able to try many of them before buying, and I realize some of this is personal preference. With that in mind, here are some of my thoughts on the available options and suggestions ITT, please correct if wrong or add your own experience:

Out of all the durable LPVO's out there, I've been told that the fastest on 1x are the Khales K16i (and by extension the K18i as supposedly they are the same at 1x), and the Vortex Razor Gen II-E 1-6x. I realize you can get fast with anything with training, but those are supposedly the three that can be run fastest or are the easiest to run fast up close and from odd positions due to the eye box, wide FOV, illumination, and so on. On the Gen II-E and while I like it, the recticle seem a bit thin. The Khales SM1 seems about perfect if only it had a larger bottom line, and was available on the K18i. The 3GR looks a little better than the Vortex offering, but still not ideal. All three are SFP which is fine but I can understand the value of FFP in a 1-8x.

The S&B Short Dot Dual CC seems excellent and a cut above the rest for overall use. But I've been told that at 1x, it isn't as fast as the others mentioned above, and that it really needs the illumination to function properly at 1x as designed. The recticle looks extremely thin as seen here. Makes me very hesitant to drop $4200 on one.

The Vortex Gen III is similar in that at 1x without illumination the recticle looks really small. I've also heard there is some fish eye. If I get an LPVO for non-SHTF use this or the S&B would probably be it, but the criteria for "no battery 1x performance" makes this a bit of a hard choice.

I've also been recommended the Elcan, supposedly the mounts have been fixed and they are cheaper now. Anyone have any thoughts on this and how it might compare to a Razor Gen II-E at 1x?

The Accupoint is obviously of lower quality than the rest mentioned here, worse FOV, eye box, etc. But it would have illumination in the day as long as the fiberoptic was working, which might give it an edge?

As for some of the other suggestions:

Nightforce 1-8 ATACR: Recticle looks better than the Razor Gen III at 1x, but I've been told this is slower than the Razor by a good margin?

Leupold Mark 8 CQBSS & Leupold Mark 6 1-6: I don't know much about either beyond what I've read/seen online. The 1-8x looks heavy with a relatively small FOV but some decent reticle options. Supposedly not a true 1x on it. Would anyone pick either of these over the optics mentioned above, and if so why?

Minox 1-8: Looks very interesting, the MR10+ is pretty compelling. Hard to find info on though, any thoughts on it vs. the K18i or Razor Gen III?


@koshkin you've probably looked through a lot of these, so I'm curious if after reading the bold statement above if your recommendation would stay the same.
 
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db2000

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I have a Primary Arms PLx 1-8x24 w/ ACSS Griffin reticle (a main reason for purchase) and really like it. Lots a great features including great glass.
 

Sogan

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I've heard that the Gen III 1-10 has fantastic illumination and is practically a red-dot at 1x.
They are pretty nice. The 10x won’t be used much for me on a 223 but for a true SHTF situation the ability to ID at distance would be well worth the added weight of having one
 

LeadZeke

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The Blaser looks interesting, recticle is very clearly for hunting at closer ranges though. Not sure how durable it is either?

As for batteries, remember max life from new is usually only around 10 years. So if I'd gotten a shipment of batteries in that day, I have maybe 10 years till they are done. Rechargeables with solar charges might get you a bit more, but only just depending on use. Should such an unlikely situation arise, I'm hoping my community, and my family, and my rifle live a lot longer than 10 years. Hence wanting an optic that would still be useful to us/them at that point. I have the other bases covered, plenty of batteries and so on.

The Primary Arms PLx looks like it has a pretty nice recticle on 1x and is FFP. But the FOV seems pretty limited at 1x. How's it feel compare to a red dot db2000?

Charger442 is there any reason to expect those 1-4x optics are any more durable than the stuff that is getting issued today like the Sig Tango, ATACR, S&B Short Dot, and so on? I don't see why they would be? And if not, why limit yourself to 1-4x, I don't see a compelling reason myself, especially over a Elcan?
 

Blake Whitham

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No its shit compared to the offerings. Not FFP, the reticle sucks and only 6x.

SHTF/Combat optics should always be FFP.
Why is FFP necessary for SHTF optic? I think SFP would be more beneficial bc honestly youll most likely only be using it on two settings in my opinion, highest and lowest. I would personally always have it on 1x until i needed the 6x magnification and on a FFP scope on 1x it is shit bc you cant even see the reticle to hardly use it. When at max power that is where you'll have your true sub tensions so then if you wish to compensate using the reticle you can.
 

AZgeek

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I have a Primary Arms PLx 1-8x24 w/ ACSS Griffin reticle (a main reason for purchase) and really like it. Lots a great features including great glass.
I have one as well on my main SHTF M4. These are built like tanks and the reticles are the bomb for human targets! The Razor 1-6 is another good choice.
 
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Charger442

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The Blaser looks interesting, recticle is very clearly for hunting at closer ranges though. Not sure how durable it is either?

As for batteries, remember max life from new is usually only around 10 years. So if I'd gotten a shipment of batteries in that day, I have maybe 10 years till they are done. Rechargeables with solar charges might get you a bit more, but only just depending on use. Should such an unlikely situation arise, I'm hoping my community, and my family, and my rifle live a lot longer than 10 years. Hence wanting an optic that would still be useful to us/them at that point. I have the other bases covered, plenty of batteries and so on.

The Primary Arms PLx looks like it has a pretty nice recticle on 1x and is FFP. But the FOV seems pretty limited at 1x. How's it feel compare to a red dot db2000?

Charger442 is there any reason to expect those 1-4x optics are any more durable than the stuff that is getting issued today like the Sig Tango, ATACR, S&B Short Dot, and so on? I don't see why they would be? And if not, why limit yourself to 1-4x, I don't see a compelling reason myself, especially over a Elcan?
Those optics and those companies have had a history of well made, overbuilt, hard-use proven optics. Both of those specific optics are simple, short and have clear glass and the features that fit the SHTf situation we are talking about.

I'm not taking away from any of the others, and especially would note the Steiner Px4i is a good choice also.

But I think over the $800-$1200 price point you start getting diminishing returns quickly as the price increases. Personally, i went with the nxs in this situation and on another similar build, I bought a TA44. Yes it's fixed power but what a wonderful sight in just about every way imaginable.
 

CrabsandFootball

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You really have three choices today if you want the best. Under $2k the Razor G2. Over
Why is FFP necessary for SHTF optic? I think SFP would be more beneficial bc honestly youll most likely only be using it on two settings in my opinion, highest and lowest. I would personally always have it on 1x until i needed the 6x magnification and on a FFP scope on 1x it is shit bc you cant even see the reticle to hardly use it. When at max power that is where you'll have your true sub tensions so then if you wish to compensate using the reticle you can.
have you been in combat? It’s been explained 1000 times and honestly I’m not gonna type it out again. Go do your own research.
 

CrabsandFootball

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how come there isn’t any love for the vcog? While it’s not the best, it only needs a AA battery. You could get a lot of life out of a rechargeable AA.
It’s heavy, clunky and not daylight bright. And massively overpriced.
 

avastcosmicarena

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Thanks for the suggestions and info so far. Incoming wall of text:

I should have laid this out in the OP, my #1 goal for this LPVO (after durability/reliability) is speed at 1x WITHOUT illumination. Reason being, once there are no more batteries after such an event, I'd like to have an optic that is still faster than irons up close and from odd positions. In such a situation PID is important too, as is the additional LR capability and everything I laid out in the OP. But I have other optics that can do most of that stuff already, while nothing I own can do 1x battery-less CQB with speed (at least not super well).

As such the LPVO or similar optic I'm looking for needs a very forgiving eyebox with a wide 1x FOV, and of course fast recticle even when not illuminated (ex: an improved thick German #4). Unfortunately given what is in my local area I won't be able to try many of them before buying, and I realize some of this is personal preference. With that in mind, here are some of my thoughts on the available options and suggestions ITT, please correct if wrong or add your own experience:

Out of all the durable LPVO's out there, I've been told that the fastest on 1x are the Khales K16i (and by extension the K18i as supposedly they are the same at 1x), and the Vortex Razor Gen II-E 1-6x. I realize you can get fast with anything with training, but those are supposedly the three that can be run fastest or are the easiest to run fast up close and from odd positions due to the eye box, wide FOV, illumination, and so on. On the Gen II-E and while I like it, the recticle seem a bit thin. The Khales SM1 seems about perfect if only it had a larger bottom line, and was available on the K18i. The 3GR looks a little better than the Vortex offering, but still not ideal. All three are SFP which is fine but I can understand the value of FFP in a 1-8x.

The S&B Short Dot Dual CC seems excellent and a cut above the rest for overall use. But I've been told that at 1x, it isn't as fast as the others mentioned above, and that it really needs the illumination to function properly as designed. The recticle looks extremely thin as seen here. Makes me very hesitant to drop $4200 on one.

The Vortex Gen III is similar in that at 1x without illumination the recticle looks really small. I've also heard there is some fish eye. If I get an LPVO for non-SHTF use this or the S&B would probably be it, but the criteria for "no battery 1x performance" makes this a bit of a hard choice.

I've also been recommended the Elcan, supposedly the mounts have been fixed and they are cheaper now. Anyone have any thoughts on this and how it might compare to a Razor Gen II-E at 1x?

The Accupoint is obviously of lower quality than the rest mentioned here, worse FOV, eye box, etc. But it would have illumination in the day as long as the fiberoptic was working, which might give it an edge?

As for some of the other suggestions:

Nightforce 1-8 ATACR: Recticle looks better than the Razor Gen III at 1x, but I've been told this is slower than the Razor by a good margin?

Leupold Mark 8 CQBSS & Leupold Mark 6 1-6: I don't know much about either beyond what I've read/seen online. The 1-8x looks heavy with a relatively small FOV but some decent reticle options. Supposedly not a true 1x on it. Would anyone pick either of these over the optics mentioned above, and if so why?

Minox 1-8: Looks very interesting, the MR10+ is pretty compelling. Hard to find info on though, any thoughts on it vs. the K18i or Razor Gen III?


@koshkin you've probably looked through a lot of these, so I'm curious if after reading the bold statement above if your recommendation would stay the same.
Swarovski and Kahles have the best FOV and eyebox.

It sounds like your goals are exactly the same as the goals of a 3 gunner. So, you should just look at what they are using... mostly all Swarovski, Kahles, or Vortex.
 

sleeplz

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You really have three choices today if you want the best. Under $2k the Razor G2. Over

have you been in combat? It’s been explained 1000 times and honestly I’m not gonna type it out again. Go do your own research.
Are you an e4 that deployed with the guard to qatar? Super cringey when ppl type military deployments instead of giving simple explanations.
 

BufordTJustice

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Training is more important. Most of the optics mentioned will work and be fast with reps. The ATACR is plenty fast. Vortex, Khales, Leupold as well. Pick one and shoot. All lpvo's are a compromise of sorts. Most are plenty durable. In the premium offering, they are all serviceable.
 

LeadZeke

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I agree training is most important as I mentioned above. With enough reps I could probably even get the ACOG decently fast (although with no diopter it is still a no-go for my eyes). However I'd like to get the best optic for the job, and the bigger the eye box the better for compromised shooting positions (like under a car or VTAC) I've found.

After looking at a lot of the specs, options, and recticles of the optics suggested here, the Khales K18i seems pretty ideal in almost all regaurds (minus being SFP which I don't think is that big a deal). But I am concerned a little with the durability, and with the 3GR recticle being usable without illumination. Anyone with info on either would be greatly appreciated. Or if there is someone that seems to fit the bill better I'd love to hear it.
 

BufordTJustice

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I think the Khales durability issue is overthinking this. Warranty, however ? ? Glass might be worth the gamble. Haven't looked through the 1-8 so can't speak to that. The NF ATACR & nx8 1-8 are both adequate/ good for their respective uses. $$$ ? So is the Leupold 6 1-6. Really $$$ for good glass. Vortex gen 2 1-6 (haven't used the gen 3 1-10), but hope to soon, best all around value , possibly. I find weight a concern, especially on a 308 gasser. Again, in the premium offerings, all of the above work.
 

CrabsandFootball

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Training is more important. Most of the optics mentioned will work and be fast with reps. The ATACR is plenty fast. Vortex, Khales, Leupold as well. Pick one and shoot. All lpvo's are a compromise of sorts. Most are plenty durable. In the premium offering, they are all serviceable.
Wrong
 

nn8734

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Leupold Mark 8 CQBSS & Leupold Mark 6 1-6: I don't know much about either beyond what I've read/seen online. The 1-8x looks heavy with a relatively small FOV but some decent reticle options. Supposedly not a true 1x on it. Would anyone pick either of these over the optics mentioned above, and if so why?

Minox 1-8: Looks very interesting, the MR10+ is pretty compelling. Hard to find info on though, any thoughts on it vs. the K18i or Razor Gen III?
What will this LPVO be mounted to? A 16” AR? CQB length (10.3”-12.5”), a shorty .308 or something else? Is this the only long gun you envision having with you if the fan gets dirty?

Also, you use the words “speed” and “fast” to compare these but honestly speed is subjective and how you respond to whatever reticle you have and how often you train in dynamic shooting CoFs will determine how fast and accurate you can be.

That said, I selected the Leupold Mk6 1-6 with the CMR-W 5.56 for my DD M4A1 block 2 it’s lightweight, and maneuverable for 0-300 and I can still take more precise shots to 500 when I have a steady rest and some time. I put a CQBSS w/H27D on my SR25 for pretty much the same reasons (I can go 0-800 with that weapon, although it’s obviously not as fast fighting in close ( not the best tool for that job anyway). Not sure I’d put it on a small frame but that’s just me. My SR is more of a K1 type, anyway.

Neither of the above mentioned platforms are anywhere near as “fast” as my Mk18 mod 1 with an Eotech 3-2, which is dead on out to 300 yards with whatever decent ammo I feed it. In a mad max scenario, most of your fighting will likely be done inside 300, as in at any other time you may need to defend yourself and/or family from threats. PID can be done via a good set of 10x binos.

For SHTF, reliability, ruggedness are most important for me, assuming I could only have one long gun, which is often the scenario presented. If I was confronted with a SHTF, I have my Mk18 and SR25 with me.

Of the choices you listed in your OP, the Razor Gen III is what I would prob roll with, assuming you are putting it on a 5.56 14.5”-16” AR. It has the best blend of speed, magnification, rugged reliability that I would want given your requirements.
 
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CrabsandFootball

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What's wrong? Training or durability? Or the fact that lpvo's all are a compromise?
The clicheness of “train” coming from people who never weilded said weapons in combat is ironic

Nor is the absurdity that lpvos are a compromise. Everything is a compromise. Good lpvos are not much of a compromise.

Half the shit you mentioned make terrible combat optics and even worse in a shtf scenario.

I swear half the people here rattling off shit are like 14 year old virgins telling everyone else how to fuck.
 

BufordTJustice

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The clicheness of “train” coming from people who never weilded said weapons in combat is ironic

Nor is the absurdity that lpvos are a compromise. Everything is a compromise. Good lpvos are not much of a compromise.

Half the shit you mentioned make terrible combat optics and even worse in a shtf scenario.

I swear half the people here rattling off shit are like 14 year old virgins telling everyone else how to fuck.
Right on killer! Your a stud
 

BA1412

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FWIW: My go to SHTF is the Leupold Mark 6 1-6 with the TMR-D. The reticle is a basic, simple to use milling reticle just as fast as a red dot with the illum on, more than functional with the illum off. Being front focal, the "Dot" portion of the reticle blows out of the way at higher powers allowing you to use the reticle for what you need. Yeah, the center is a little heavy if you're shooting groups but the optic isnt designed for that. As a "Combat" optic, there really isnt much better in my opinion. I ran Vortex for a while and just never really trusted it, i had 2 and they both had to go back for POI issues at different times... not saying its a bad optic, it just wasnt something i felt comfortable trusting. The NX8 is an awesome choice but for me, 1-8 was a little much for a 12.5 do it all combat gun. The ATACR i liked but being larger and heavier, would be more suited to a 16" DMR style rifle. The Mark 6 beat those two out. I really WANTED to like my Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8 and, the scope i really did. the only thing about the optic i couldnt get behind was the reticle. I just REALLLLLLLY didnt like the Mil dot, it wasnt really fast on 1 power and the dots are too big on 8, the M-TMR is useless unless its mounted on a machine gun or MK-19 and the Horus H 27D, i dont have the VERY niche need of a horus grid in an 8 power optic. Same thing as the ATACR, much better suited to a 16" DMR style gun. I havent had any live rounds through the Khales, but the few ive dry fired with, i liked. I just havent put enough time into it to really say "Yes" or "No" on that one. The S&B is an awesome scope but i fould myself running into the same issue with the reticle... a little too busy for the intended purpose.
At the end of the day, the Mark 6 checks all the boxes i need it to and does exactly what its supposed to very very well. About a month ago i swapped the mount to a 1.93" Condition one and i dont think that ill ever change anything on this rifle again. If i was back in the military today, and could choose what i go downrange with, this would be the setup for me, hands down.
 

CrabsandFootball

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FWIW: My go to SHTF is the Leupold Mark 6 1-6 with the TMR-D. The reticle is a basic, simple to use milling reticle just as fast as a red dot with the illum on, more than functional with the illum off. Being front focal, the "Dot" portion of the reticle blows out of the way at higher powers allowing you to use the reticle for what you need. Yeah, the center is a little heavy if you're shooting groups but the optic isnt designed for that. As a "Combat" optic, there really isnt much better in my opinion. I ran Vortex for a while and just never really trusted it, i had 2 and they both had to go back for POI issues at different times... not saying its a bad optic, it just wasnt something i felt comfortable trusting. The NX8 is an awesome choice but for me, 1-8 was a little much for a 12.5 do it all combat gun. The ATACR i liked but being larger and heavier, would be more suited to a 16" DMR style rifle. The Mark 6 beat those two out. I really WANTED to like my Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8 and, the scope i really did. the only thing about the optic i couldnt get behind was the reticle. I just REALLLLLLLY didnt like the Mil dot, it wasnt really fast on 1 power and the dots are too big on 8, the M-TMR is useless unless its mounted on a machine gun or MK-19 and the Horus H 27D, i dont have the VERY niche need of a horus grid in an 8 power optic. Same thing as the ATACR, much better suited to a 16" DMR style gun. I havent had any live rounds through the Khales, but the few ive dry fired with, i liked. I just havent put enough time into it to really say "Yes" or "No" on that one. The S&B is an awesome scope but i fould myself running into the same issue with the reticle... a little too busy for the intended purpose.
At the end of the day, the Mark 6 checks all the boxes i need it to and does exactly what its supposed to very very well. About a month ago i swapped the mount to a 1.93" Condition one and i dont think that ill ever change anything on this rifle again. If i was back in the military today, and could choose what i go downrange with, this would be the setup for me, hands down.
Its not daylight bright and they are not durable enough. Over the last 10 years its been hashed out and why serious users went with the CQBSS. Much better optic with the H27.

Its really not that hard to understand. You want to minimize processing time to get the fastest actions possible under all conditions. FFP, Daylight bright, Great holdover reticle, good 1x performance and durable/reliable. That is what's important. Its about speed and putting accurate rounds on target as fast as possible using the information you have and not having to think to much. There are a hundred other things that are going to be racing through your mind, so make it simple and dumb proof as possible.

I carried a 1.1-4 S&B shortdot in Iraq in the early days and it wasn't until the CQBSS came out, we had a viable upgrade worth running. Then it was the ATACR and now the G3 and S&B 1-8. The NX8 sucked for a bunch of reasons.

The MK6 doesn't even crack the top10 best LPV'S.
 

BufordTJustice

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To clarify my response to the OP, I like the Vortex razor gen 2 e 1-6, it's fast, daylight bright & glass is good. It just feels heavy on some platforms(for a 1-6). I actually really like my ATACR 1-8 for my 308. Glass is clear and the reticle is functional. I also like my nx8 1-8. Yes it's a little finicky to get behind, I've adapted?. Yes the center dot gets large, I can work around that too. I also like my Leupold mark 6 1-6? Mine is bright enough? does flicker some, my eyes aren't the best. Glass is good. I've only borrowed the Khales 1-6, don't own one so won't comment beyond the glass is good. I liked it. All of these have been in the truck, bouncing around in the pasture/ dirt roads everyday/all day. I personally(small sample size) have yet to have an issue. All hold zero, durable enough for me. Not trying to influence you one way or the other, just sayin.
 

BA1412

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6
Its not daylight bright and they are not durable enough. Over the last 10 years its been hashed out and why serious users went with the CQBSS. Much better optic with the H27.

Its really not that hard to understand. You want to minimize processing time to get the fastest actions possible under all conditions. FFP, Daylight bright, Great holdover reticle, good 1x performance and durable/reliable. That is what's important. Its about speed and putting accurate rounds on target as fast as possible using the information you have and not having to think to much. There are a hundred other things that are going to be racing through your mind, so make it simple and dumb proof as possible.

I carried a 1.1-4 S&B shortdot in Iraq in the early days and it wasn't until the CQBSS came out, we had a viable upgrade worth running. Then it was the ATACR and now the G3 and S&B 1-8. The NX8 sucked for a bunch of reasons.

The MK6 doesn't even crack the top10 best LPV'S.
If that’s what you like that’s what you like 🤷🏻‍♂️ The TMR-D is daylight bright... the “D” stands for “daylight”.
The H27D isn’t a bad reticle, it’s just not what I would choose for a SHTF rifle. If I was conducting overwatch, expected to engage targets in a protracted gunfight at distance, sure. But I guess when I consider a SHTF scenario, I’m not thinking of conducting coordinated offensive operations. I’m thinking more react to contact and break contact as my go to battle drills. If things are really bad, I’m not looking to take ground, I’m looking to defend myself and break contact. I personally don’t need 8 power and a reticle that I don’t like to engage man sized targets out to 800m with an AR. Id rather lose the 2x and stop at 6 power with a reticle that I can employ quickly and effectively at high and low power. It’s a great time to be a user right now, there are so many good options, you can find what works best for your application.
If there was one optic that did it all, every “ODA, OGA, insert favorite alphabet soup letter agency/team/group/operator/whatever here” would be using it. There’s a reason they all have a variety of tools and even guys on the same teams use different optics depending on the mission.
As far as the mark 6 not even being top ten... that seems like a bit of a stretch... but hey, your opinion doesn’t have to be the same as mine... doesn’t hurt my feelings.
 

AZgeek

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Sep 30, 2014
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I really like my PLx 1-8 but it does not have a proven record of service like the original Razor 1-6. But I'll still roll the dice with it for this role.
 

aslrookie

Private
Belligerents
Mar 19, 2017
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Ok, let’s think about this for a minute. Why do you want FFP in a LPVO? On 1X the reticle is too small to use without illumination. You can’t see any detail in the reticle.

If you’re dropping cash on a top dollar optic, you can buy enough batteries to last your remaining lifetime. They are small, lightweight and easy to store.

If you think that the difference between life or death in a apocalyptic world is battery life or a FFP reticle...you’re severely mistaken. Go spend a few weeks in the bush with your 72hr pack and see if what you’re nitpicking about is really that important.

These SHTF threads are nothing more than a disguised WTB thread. Do you have a team put together you can collaborate with? Do you have communication other than a cell phone? Do you have a pack ready to go? Do you have body armor? Night vision? White lights on all your weapons you plan on using? Maps of the surroundings and possible retreat locations?

Those are the real questions you should be asking.
 

CrabsandFootball

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Minuteman
Apr 28, 2020
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Ok, let’s think about this for a minute. Why do you want FFP in a LPVO? On 1X the reticle is too small to use without illumination. You can’t see any detail in the reticle.

If you’re dropping cash on a top dollar optic, you can buy enough batteries to last your remaining lifetime. They are small, lightweight and easy to store.

If you think that the difference between life or death in a apocalyptic world is battery life or a FFP reticle...you’re severely mistaken. Go spend a few weeks in the bush with your 72hr pack and see if what you’re nitpicking about is really that important.

These SHTF threads are nothing more than a disguised WTB thread. Do you have a team put together you can collaborate with? Do you have communication other than a cell phone? Do you have a pack ready to go? Do you have body armor? Night vision? White lights on all your weapons you plan on using? Maps of the surroundings and possible retreat locations?

Those are the real questions you should be asking.
Bullshit argument has been destroyed too many times.

Daylight bright is like an aimpoint on 1x. You don't use the reticle for anything under say 3x. Under that its aimpoint both eyes open. In fact they are used more like 1x aimpoint and a 4-8/10 scope with ranging and holdover.

People saying you are going to be on 1x or 10x are retarded. FOV is a real thing. Gun gammers and video gammers don't understand this because they can't conceive "range" where you don't know what your getting before you see it. In the real world you don't get to watch 10 guys run a stage and plan out your course of action. You may find yourself in a complex ambush with guys at 200 and 600 yards shooting at you. You need the situational aware to engage the immediate threats and work the problem. People don't just stand out in the open waving their dicks around like a IDPA target. They hide behind shit, they move and you don't have time to think or worry about what power your optic is on to ensure you have the right subtensions and dial range. You probably are thinking through a bunch of shit while subconsciously executing whatever immediate action or battle drill is appropriate. You are thinking how can we maneuver or bring concentrated firepower where we need it. Dicking around with an optic is the last fucking think you will want to be doing.

Want to know how I know you have never used an optic in combat or life and death situation? Modern 1-8/10X FFP are a game changer. So much that just above everyone who shoots people for a living is moving to some version of them for everything from known CQB DA.

Go do your own research because you do not know what your talking about.

You are trying to change the subject. Were talking about combat/SHTF LPVs. Stick to the topic if you can keep up.
 
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