Trust me, many of them here are.
You can tell if a design was submitted for a university or external specialty firm consultation.
Silencer Central, if true Phuck them!
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Trust me, many of them here are.
You can tell if a design was submitted for a university or external specialty firm consultation.
An EOS additive manufacturing 3D printer used to make a lot of our favorite latest/greatest suppressors runs over $100K. The engineer that's trained to operate it, design the suppressor, do materials analysis probably makes close to that a year (but hopefully more). The materials that go into it cost...whatever. Then there's taxes, infrastructure, utilities, marketing, web hosting, health insurance, people cost in other words. Point being, suppressors worth having don't cost $20 to make. Like ever.
I know for a fact that a popular 3D printed suppressor costs a dealer about $890. It sells for a good bit over $1K list before the tax stamp. Best guess given manufacturer to dealer markups, puts the manufacturing cost of the suppressor at north of $400.
And honestly, if they take the tax stamp away, it's supply and demand. Prices will go up as there will be more demand at least in the short term under normal economic conditions. State governments will likely win with increased sales tax revenue.
I know for a fact that a popular 3D printed suppressor costs a dealer about $890. It sells for a good bit over $1K list before the tax stamp. Best guess given manufacturer to dealer markups, puts the manufacturing cost of the suppressor at north of $400.
And honestly, if they take the tax stamp away, it's supply and demand. Prices will go up as there will be more demand at least in the short term under normal economic conditions. State governments will likely win with increased sales tax revenue.
The machine work still isn't special.
Tons of places work with the material, there's no secrets.
Any decent machinist should be able to put one together easily.
It costs a ton of money to lease the land, hire staff, build the building, outfit the building and train the staff and yet McDonald's still sells $8 Happy Meals. The neighboring county has a population of 60K people and there are 6 of them along with multiple other fast food establishments.
Exactly , without tax stamp costs , 300$ centerfire and 100$ rimfire suppresors would become quite common not to mention vendors offering them , massively cutting into SC market and overhead.
We have unregulated suppressors and so everyone can and does sell them there is no chance for such business model
They think we’re pretty stupid.
I mean they convince tons of buyers every day that the Bannish suppressors are the bestest ever suppressor ever made by man. So they know people are pretty dumb.
If they get dropped off the NFA Amazon should have them for sale for $15. The whole time and material and engineering is BS.... they've been designed, functioning, and available for decades, they are not reinventing the wheel. And time and material...... You can buy a really nice TIG welded race muffler for a couple hundred bucks with 5 times the material and time invested made in USA, or the same thing from china for $40. The price of suppressors is a joke and only high because they got something special (NFA item) and its a niche market. Its a non-precision item with no moving parts. Remove from the NFA and its no longer special or niche. Price should fall out the bottom, that is why manufacturers side with the NFA. They probably make +500% profit right now, I'd imagine having to ramp up production 100% and cut costs to only 20% profit wouldnt really be appealing to anyone.
If they dont need a serial number and anyone can make them they will have to or fold.
If they dont need a serial number and anyone can make them they will have to or fold.
Um, they have a bullet traveling up to, or exceeding, 3000 feet per second, fired at potentially fully semi-automatic rates, generating heat that can- literally- make them glow red, from an aperture only a few thou over nominal bore diameter. And, because of the NFA making them a lifetime investment, they are built for a lifetime of service.
While I do believe the street prices of suppressors are inflated by market influences created by the NFA, the statement above is willfully obtuse.
I wonder how much a tig welded race muffler would cost if it were expected to spit bullets at hearing safe sound levels without material failure, with a lifetime repair-replace guarantee if it were to fail structurally…
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The suppressor still has no moving parts. Ive made silencers for 6000psi gas vents. Nothing really to them except heavier duty.....obviously. The bullet moving past it can be at light speed, its not touching it. The things that affect it are heat and pressure. Lifetime of service is not a big deal, use the right common metals and they will work. Thats an advertising gimmick to get you to accept the insane price. They act as if its some special process or some special metals. Nope. There are a lot of industries that use similar things, processes, and are subjected to the same or greater torture and even certified for aircraft that are not this expensive for what it is. They are just taking advantage of the item being on the NFA.... hence the reason they support it staying on the NFA.
I believe his intent was to say that a suppressor is the most basic machine functions.
With over 45 years in the field I can say without a doubt the last company I worked for we could manufacture a suppressor from start to finish for under $100 in any material you wanted.
The parts, product we made were far more complex and precise. Also labor intensive in their final assembly.
If they were to become unregulated any CNC shop in America, worldwide could produce them. Yes some will be good some will be bad but that is how it works.
Then Chiinaaah will steal all the patents and mass produce them and sell them on Amazon and you will have $29.95 suppressors that work but not the best just like all products mad now.
Are suppressor purchasers being raped by the manufacturers and vendors? Yes. Not very much different than the machine gun market, just in a less extreme scale. A $30,000 transferable M16 today, is a $600 gun if the NFA gets Thanosed.
(Good news, recent settlement may have just done it, sorta, with FRTs back on market)
I’d love to see foreign competition push US suppressor manufacturers not to accept the status quo. Would this bring prices down? Yeah, some. But, in an analogous market, Tasco scopes aren’t putting much pressure on US Optics. I don’t think the hypothesized sub-$100 Amazon Specials are going to force TBAC to match price.
6000 psi gas vents? I just found a calculator for muzzle pressure. A 62 grain 5.56 bullet fired from a 20” barrel at 3000 fps would have a muzzle pressure of ~18,000 psi. Do these vents silencers need to allow a bullet to escape unimpeded, while also bringing the sound levels down to (near) hearing safe? What is the temp of these venting gases? Are there negative consequences if these gas vent silencers experience thermal events that alter the vent path? And, are these vent silencers expected to be non-replaceable parts?
Back to race mufflers, how much pressure do they experience? Like 10 psi?
(Good news, recent settlement may have just done it, sorta, with FRTs back on market)
I’d love to see foreign competition push US suppressor manufacturers not to accept the status quo. Would this bring prices down? Yeah, some. But, in an analogous market, Tasco scopes aren’t putting much pressure on US Optics. I don’t think the hypothesized sub-$100 Amazon Specials are going to force TBAC to match price.
6000 psi gas vents? I just found a calculator for muzzle pressure. A 62 grain 5.56 bullet fired from a 20” barrel at 3000 fps would have a muzzle pressure of ~18,000 psi. Do these vents silencers need to allow a bullet to escape unimpeded, while also bringing the sound levels down to (near) hearing safe? What is the temp of these venting gases? Are there negative consequences if these gas vent silencers experience thermal events that alter the vent path? And, are these vent silencers expected to be non-replaceable parts?
Back to race mufflers, how much pressure do they experience? Like 10 psi?
“Fully semi-automatic” is a humorous euphemism for fully automatic fire (taken from some legislator that didn’t know anything about firearms, but was quite enthusiastic in speaking out of their ass.). Rates are generally somewhere around 4-500 rounds per minute on the slow end up to maybe 1100 rounds per minute on the really ludicrous end, for individual weapons.
Well, when Samsung drops the Samsung Galaxy suppressor that you can Bluetooth connect to your phone and your ear buds, with a built in chronograph, barometer, thermometer and wind meter, we will all line up to give them $2,500 for it.
Bring on the future.
Bring on the future.
Why is the 2A community filled with so many ignorant bandwagoning retards?
Back in 2023 Silencer Central was open about supporting said bill H.R. 6352. Their blog post about it is still available and up and explains the bill and what it does.
“WHAT IS THE TAX STAMP REVENUE TRANSFER BILL?The Tax Stamp Revenue Transfer for Wildlife and Recreation Act is a significant milestone for wildlife, hunters, and shooting enthusiasts. Supported by Silencer Central, America’s largest silencer dealer, along with 12 other companies & organizations the bill proposes redirecting 15% of tax stamp revenue to expedite the processing of suppressor applications, addressing the current lengthy waiting periods. The remaining 85% would fund the Pittman Robertson Wildlife Restoration Trust Fund, supporting wildlife conservation, law enforcement, hunter recruitment, and the development of recreational shooting ranges. For more details, check out the bill here.”
But hey, it's not like Guns & Gadgets has a long history of posting complete bullshit to increase views or anything. Oh, wait....
Back in 2023 Silencer Central was open about supporting said bill H.R. 6352. Their blog post about it is still available and up and explains the bill and what it does.
“WHAT IS THE TAX STAMP REVENUE TRANSFER BILL?The Tax Stamp Revenue Transfer for Wildlife and Recreation Act is a significant milestone for wildlife, hunters, and shooting enthusiasts. Supported by Silencer Central, America’s largest silencer dealer, along with 12 other companies & organizations the bill proposes redirecting 15% of tax stamp revenue to expedite the processing of suppressor applications, addressing the current lengthy waiting periods. The remaining 85% would fund the Pittman Robertson Wildlife Restoration Trust Fund, supporting wildlife conservation, law enforcement, hunter recruitment, and the development of recreational shooting ranges. For more details, check out the bill here.”
But hey, it's not like Guns & Gadgets has a long history of posting complete bullshit to increase views or anything. Oh, wait....
but yet you can shoot thru a tin foil oil filter and achieve the same results.........................
You are ignoring the whole concept. It doesnt matter what pressure, just use the correct material and thickness to handle it. Cost difference in such variances is not much at all. 18,000 psi is PER SQUARE INCH. average .30 inch. (30 cal). Pressure is force applied to the said area. Small tubes can handle high pressure easier because there is less surface area. That is why a 1/4" tube can handle 6000psi with only a .035 wall thickness versus a 1" pipe running the same pressure needs a much thicker wall thickness...
Im just telling you why it is... Like Ironpony stated. Anyone with any manufacturing experience could whip you up a suppressor for $100. There is nothing to them in comparison to lots of other things that cost less.
Also, china has been buying our scrap for decades and control the metal market. Metal you get from china is not sub par, pretty much most everything made in America is made with China metal. They live and sleep in factories and have machines in their houses. Ive built intercoolers using chinese cores, they are perfect. $2000 core cost in the US, $100 cost in china... the difference? $1900. Metallurgical properties are the same. The chinese aluminum welds better in my opinion. Ive bought a lot of chinese knockoff stuff and compared it to real stuff... Gibson guitars for another example, I have a $3500 one made in the US and the $100. I got from china... the difference is not much. Especially for the cost. It laughable how close they are. The chinese listen also, ive been in contact with factories there and had stuff made. I built a guitar and they made me a headstock overlay with the logo in it.... imaculate. So if they made suppressors.... might take a bit for them to get feedback but they would eventually be spot on and make what you want, and it would be perfect. Probably for less than $100. Material to them would probably be $15-20. labor about the same... Its hard to wrap your head around the cost of stuff everywhere else in the world, you just need to realize how bad we are ripped off here.
This is my specific case, mileage may vary with others. What cost me money in a machine shop is paying people to stand around and not have work for them. I have on several occasions looked at doing projects/things outside of our niche (lots of parts for refineries, production platforms, rigs). When I looked at making milspec upper and lower receivers, it quickly became apparent that it was an extremely low margin business and gave up on the idea. I am not sure how much lower suppressors would go, I am confident that you would see prices drop.
What I am really unsure about is how much money will people pay for a brand name? If you look at really affordable suppressors that are good quality (otter creek, yankee hill) immediately pop into my mind. They sell 5.56 suppressors for something like 40% of the cost of Surefire or KAC. They sell them for something like half the cost of CAT or SCI.
I'm not arguing anything one way or another btw guys, just shared the Desk Pop video as it seemed like it hadn't come up in discussion as it was relatively recently uploaded and so I just tossed it in. I'm not taking sides, but something is definately screwy and whoever is pulling strings needs to lose their position IMO.
I’m not sure what your point is, but HR6352 -Tax Stamp Revenue Transfer bill is not the same as the Constitutional Hearing Protection Act, formerly HPA.
HR6352 just looked to reduce the tax stamp cost to the consumer. So of course all suppressor companies would support it as it would increase sales. Yet it still made them remain fully on the NFA. A good thing for current manufacturers.
The Constitutional Hearing Protection Act as introduced would have removed them completely from NFA. Making them essentially another firearm commodity.
Not a good thing for current manufacturers.
If you cannot see the difference…
ETA: the revisions to CHPA coming out of committee amount to essentially the same thing as your referenced HR6352. It looks to reduce the cost to consumers. Thus satisfying those that want to keep them on the NFA, like say SC. And also satisfying those congressmen that would just like to get the pressure off of them from their constituents.
This compromise would likely accomplish both those things while pretty much keeping the status quo in DC and satisfying the huge lobbying groups from both sides.
Who loses? John Q. Public, that’s who.
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The only presented evidence (of anything) in this whole thread is:
"Rumors have been swirling in the firearms community about a company lobbying Congress to keep silencers under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA). Lobbying disclosures show Silencer Central advocated for ‘suppressor tax stamp conservation legislation’ in 2024, prompting speculation about their stance on NFA deregulation."
(Doublethink posted SC's lobbying report in post #7, but here is the link https://lda.senate.gov/filings/public/filing/9f4f176a-b694-4716-a1bf-047230e68336/print/ )
SC's ‘suppressor tax stamp conservation legislation’ lobbying was in regards to HR6352. I have seen NO evidence of SC lobbying to block/cripple CHPA. Just the usual conjecture, "breadcrumbs", and "if-then" bullshit that seems to pass for evidence anymore. If you have seen actual evidence of such, by all means link it. SC did spend "less than $5k" for lobbying on the CHPA, but we have no information on the position they are in favor of. https://lda.senate.gov/filings/public/filing/e9c2c92a-17d3-448f-acf6-db2f22d87210/print/
My "point" is that this whole discussion seems to be based on some retards reading "suppressor tax stamp conservation legislation", and surmising that it means "legislation to conserve the tax stamp". Which is just mindbogglingly stupid.
I'm betting at the end of the day, (G&G, LAO, VSO, Et al.) will have stirred up this shit storm just for views, and never present any actual evidence that SC hold the positions claimed in their vids. Yet, a certain percentage of those who have decided SC's guilt will never relent. And the 2A community will have harmed another supportive business, because we just can't seem to stop the backbiting long enough to get to the truth. And for what crime? Not being specific enough with their language choice on a bullshit government form.
Si. Rumors.
Linking the lobbying to the redirection of stamp taxes to support wildlife conservation seems logical.
I have not been able to find anything that specifically supports a desire by SC to keep suppressors or anything under NFA.
A simple and direct statement from SC about the purpose and goal of the lobbying disclosed would have cleared things up right quick. The statement released by SC appeared to address everything but the lobbying disclosure. Maybe an oversight, maybe they thought it was obvious.
Either way mountains are emerging from mole hills.
Which is about normal for any business. Big oil is even less IIRC.
I wonder what their profit margin is. I can't really blame them for trying to protect it. But getting caught is a big risk. Especially if they are promoting one thing to their customers and using the customer's money to do it. Kinda sounds like Black Rifle Coffee.
So, House bill 6352 was written to transfer “tax stamp” revenue for wildlife and recreation. Funding for wildlife is generally termed wildlife conservation funding. Silencer Central was funding lobbying efforts for suppressor tax stamp conservation legislation. It might be poorly worded, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together here.
Well then, being a vent silencer engineer, there is- literally- nothing keeping you from building a line of $100 suppressors and putting all of the price-gouging charlatans out of business.
Get to it.
I did make one for myself. Worked out well and cost a quarter of one you'd buy. I have no desire to produce anything or sell anything. Anyone could make them, lots do, I know several people that have. Theres a problem though..... they are NFA items so you need an FFL to produce and sell them.
It’s not dead. It’s just still in committee because folks want even more cuts and conservative “stuff” added to it (or subtracted from it.).
So that’s not an entirely bad thing. It’s far from dead!
Sirhr
I bought parts that were done by someone with a building, equipped, and maintains a business. All the internal cones, end caps. Then used a lathe and finished them myself. If places can machine all the parts and sell them for 100-200. Why does a dedicated shop need 800 more? Oh ya.... because they need an FFL and its an NFA item. You are arguing just to argue.... no valid point or contribution. lol.
House Republicans stall spending package for steeper cuts to Medicaid and green energy
The hard-right lawmakers are insisting on steeper spending cuts to Medicaid and the Biden-era green energy tax breaks, among other changes, before they will give their support to President Donald Trump's "beautiful” bill. They warn the tax cuts alone would pile onto the nation's $36 trillion debt.
www.pbs.org
"But at the same time, lawmakers from high-tax states including New York are demanding a deeper tax deduction, known as SALT, for their constituents."
Bah! Republicans from high tax Democrat states wanting the federal government to subsidize local tax and spend democrat schemes. Disgusting.
SALT deduction was limited to $10k in 2017 bill TCJA.
This bill would triple that to $30k. Already I am against it. And these Republicans want to subsidize high tax states even more than tripling it? Ugh.
Where is the party of small government that I voted for when I was a young man? I have my choice of two big government parties arguing over how to grow government while they both make a pretense of fiscal responsibility.
Nevertheless, I cannot find anything about the gun muffler tax being eliminated to $0 having been killed out of the bill or amended out, using Google. Sounds like fake news.
I have no idea who this Desk Pop guy is or why I should believe him. He speaks in an extremely condescending, dismissive way, as though he were handing the tablets down from the mountain, to a bunch of dribbling imbeciles. He likes to ridicule people for not Googling or researching for "8 seconds," but when I Googled HIM, it was like he didn't exist. Is he some kind of industry expert? Is he a lobbyist? He looks like a guy who vlogs from his bedroom.
The title of his video is, "Silencer Central Did not block the NFA being repealed," but who said they did? I feel like I'm missing something here. I haven't seen anyone making this accusation. Can someone point me to it, or is Mr. Pop just being sloppy, which is something I am often guilty of, myself?
Far as I know, nobody with any real power was getting ready to repeal the NFA. Wouldn't I have noticed a story like that? It doesn't show up on the web.
He says Silencer Central is lobbying to have tax stamp revenue used for nature conservation. If that is true, they should have said so using clear language, like, "We are lobbying to have tax stamp revenue used for nature conservation." That is how most people educated beyond the 5th grade would have phrased it.
If people can't figure out what their nebulous form entry means, it's their own fault. It was their responsibility to make themselves understood.
He refers to a 2023 Silencer Central blog post which explains that Silencer Central supports something called the Tax Stamp Revenue Bill, which would take 15% of the stamp revenue and use it to shorten wait periods, while directing the other 85% to conservation. It's odd that Silencer Central didn't mention this blog post in the email it sent out to defuse the lobbying kerfuffle. It would have been a lot more effective than the terse and vague statement they put out.
Why only 15% for speeding up approvals? That's weird.
I don't know why a company that sells silencers would want to direct stamp revenue to conservation. That would tend to hook the government on the revenue, giving Congress more motivation to hold onto the tax requirement. Maybe they didn't think of that, though. Or maybe they thought it was the only way to make their lobbying look virtuous.
It's not like conservation isn't already receiving tons of support.
The bill is also supposed to support the development of shooting ranges and provide general support for hunting.
He seems to be defending Silencer Central by saying its executives gave money to a number of Republicans, only one of whom is on the anti- side. Of course, campaign contributions aren't the only way to buy legislators. It would be naive for a journalist to think otherwise. Lobbyists do a lot of the work legislators are supposed to do. They send them on free trips, too. They do lots of stuff that does not show up on Open Secrets. There are ways to get around disclosure requirements.
After that, he starts listing anti- legislators who received donations from AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, and he suggests people pester AIPAC to get legislators to take silencers out of the NFA.
The impression I get, which may be wrong, is that he is trying to divert attention away from Silencer Central and focus it on a right-leaning pro-Israel PAC which probably has zero interest in the NFA. I Googled "AIPAC" and "gun control," and nothing much came up. It seems weird that he is trying to connect AIPAC and silencers. AIPAC advances Israel's interests, and they are not connected with the NFA.
It's a pretty bad video, but it does provide some useful input.
I don't know what the truth is, but I am now more inclined to think Silencer Central is just the victim of its own poor communication skills. They should have handled this fuss better.
The title of his video is, "Silencer Central Did not block the NFA being repealed," but who said they did? I feel like I'm missing something here. I haven't seen anyone making this accusation. Can someone point me to it, or is Mr. Pop just being sloppy, which is something I am often guilty of, myself?
Far as I know, nobody with any real power was getting ready to repeal the NFA. Wouldn't I have noticed a story like that? It doesn't show up on the web.
He says Silencer Central is lobbying to have tax stamp revenue used for nature conservation. If that is true, they should have said so using clear language, like, "We are lobbying to have tax stamp revenue used for nature conservation." That is how most people educated beyond the 5th grade would have phrased it.
If people can't figure out what their nebulous form entry means, it's their own fault. It was their responsibility to make themselves understood.
He refers to a 2023 Silencer Central blog post which explains that Silencer Central supports something called the Tax Stamp Revenue Bill, which would take 15% of the stamp revenue and use it to shorten wait periods, while directing the other 85% to conservation. It's odd that Silencer Central didn't mention this blog post in the email it sent out to defuse the lobbying kerfuffle. It would have been a lot more effective than the terse and vague statement they put out.
Why only 15% for speeding up approvals? That's weird.
I don't know why a company that sells silencers would want to direct stamp revenue to conservation. That would tend to hook the government on the revenue, giving Congress more motivation to hold onto the tax requirement. Maybe they didn't think of that, though. Or maybe they thought it was the only way to make their lobbying look virtuous.
It's not like conservation isn't already receiving tons of support.
The bill is also supposed to support the development of shooting ranges and provide general support for hunting.
He seems to be defending Silencer Central by saying its executives gave money to a number of Republicans, only one of whom is on the anti- side. Of course, campaign contributions aren't the only way to buy legislators. It would be naive for a journalist to think otherwise. Lobbyists do a lot of the work legislators are supposed to do. They send them on free trips, too. They do lots of stuff that does not show up on Open Secrets. There are ways to get around disclosure requirements.
After that, he starts listing anti- legislators who received donations from AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, and he suggests people pester AIPAC to get legislators to take silencers out of the NFA.
The impression I get, which may be wrong, is that he is trying to divert attention away from Silencer Central and focus it on a right-leaning pro-Israel PAC which probably has zero interest in the NFA. I Googled "AIPAC" and "gun control," and nothing much came up. It seems weird that he is trying to connect AIPAC and silencers. AIPAC advances Israel's interests, and they are not connected with the NFA.
It's a pretty bad video, but it does provide some useful input.
I don't know what the truth is, but I am now more inclined to think Silencer Central is just the victim of its own poor communication skills. They should have handled this fuss better.
couldn't be more correct. hate to say it but if Amazon sold mags and ammo,the # of on line vendors that went down in flames would > the # of your fingers and toes. prices would have to come down some. a look at the MSRP on those items tells me that times of gov obstruction and scarcity scares driven by gov action tells me that the ammo makers are flogging the customer base in a big way. true that vendors don't have much option there. common mags have gotten way lower. uncommon ones not so much.
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