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Suppressors Sionics design...?

Victor N TN

Retired civilian fart
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 16, 2002
4,014
14
71
Knoxville TN
Has anyone here tried making the 1960 & 70s design of Sionics suppressors that were used on the original Ingram Sub machine gun? I see all the high tech designs, and there is certainly nothing wrong with them. But in the late 1970s or early 80s I met a guy at the local FOP range that had a suppressor that LOOKED like a Sionics on a MAC in 9mm. But it "seemed" more quiet than the models I see today. It seemed a 2 piece design and if I remember correctly it FELT like there was something loose in it. It kind of "rattled".

Just asking. Thanks in advance.
Victor
 
The rattle was the aluminum eyelets in the expansion chamber in the first stage, the second stage had 2 spirals that were ported and in theory were supposed to cancel the movement of the gas as it traveled down the suppressor,they were quiet due the urethane wipes in the encapsulator. I had both 9 and 45, with a fresh set of wipes they are still pretty good suppression wise on a subgun.
 
Is my memory playing tricks on me, or is the Sionics more quiet than most of the newer designs?
 
Wipes are great at reducing the amount of supersonic gas following the bullet through the bore, which is a major source of the limit to dB reduction of today's suppressors.

Edit: ATF position on individual replacement of wipes isn't clear to me, but in any case, the legal and/or the practical headaches of replacing wipes frequently has made them unpopular.
 
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To answer your question, the Sionics cans came in a number of iterations, some worked much better than others. As example the Sionics patented D.G. Thomas' "Perf Spiral" would be a gross under performer by today's baffle standards. As would the gas valve (SS/MAW), as would the original primary mentioned above.
But your question is "were they quieter than today's designs" and the answer is "depends on what your compare it to today."
Suppressor design has to take into account WHAT you are using your suppressor to accomplish. Suppressing 650 rounds per minute is vastly different than suppressing 10 rounds per minute.
The vast majority of suppressors we see today breakdown into three categories (we set aside all rimfires as that is a whole different discussion):

1. Pure junk designs (and there a great number of them).
2. Well designed for low rate of fire, high precision, rifle caliber centerfire cartridges.
3. Well designed for high rate of fire, low precision (<100 yards), pistol caliber centerfire cartidges.

1. Pure junk. Poor construction, poor suppression, poor accuracy.

2. Low rate of fire precision cans. Almost without exception they ALL far surpass any SIONICS series (S-1, S-2, S-3 often referred to as the MAWs)

3. High rate of fire cans. And here we can have a discussion. When one designs for pistol caliber, centerfire, full auto the design parameters are vastly different than for a low rof precision rifle can. The task is to provide tactical CQC suppression levels (quite low) for as long as possible before heat soak sets in.
Remember the rate of fire for the MAC10 was designed in part to provide bullet placement when fired perpendicular from a moving vehicle.


There the actual designs specifications focus on materials, VOLUME and baffle design. The typical MAC subcan were being highly modified by aftermarket providers even while MAC was operating out of Glover Street. In other words, back in the day MAC SIONIC cans were seen as being able to be greatly improved.
Wipes touched projectiles (not good), wore out (not good), leading and particulate build up was frequent as these were non-purging designs (not good), aluminum envelopes (not good), Perf Sipral or even the then superior punched replacement baffles as opposed to later fully faced cones ( not good), prone to backing off barrel thread (not good). etc. etc. etc. But, volume can do wonders for suppression, and some of the SIONIC cans were monsters....and they were and are to this day remarkably quiet.
Even leaving the primary untouched, if one dumped the original Perf Cone, timed the chambers with even the simplest of machine faced cone baffles and replaced the early leather wipes with neoprene or even last gen close tolerance "permanent" finals, using subsonic calibers (.45acp) they sounded like a hammer beating on mud, bolt was the loudest.

Not knowing what you heard/saw, what was actually inside the can, what rounds were used, if any ablatives (then called "dips") were in play, my answer to your question would be "could have been quite impressive, even by today's standards.....for 50 continuous rounds."
Having said that, a well designed subgun only has to be quieter than the MAC's bolt slam to beat the SIONICS can. Remember SIONICS was a pioneer in subsonic rounds.

WerBell closing the deal. Order room service, wait until the knock on the door, set 5 go into a stack of phone books infront of the buyer (11), open the door and see if the staff looks concerned. Never did.



Compare the size of that Sionics with the late model monsters (10).

 
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Thank you for the informative answer. That helps me understand a lot of what we were shooting all those years ago.

I remember the end wipe (?) was a black rubber or silicone material. James always suggested to shoot it in very small bursts. But the 9mm model, (I don't know if it was MAC 9 or MAC 10) shot so fast I never could get less than about 5 shots to a burst. The 45 model was a little easier for me to get 3 round bursts.

edited to say: I DO remember both of the ones I shot fired from an open bolt and had a horrendous trigger pull.

The more I sit and think about it, the more I can remember. Would it make sense to have any copper parts? I want to think he told me that there was something copper inside.

Thanks again for all the information.
Victor
 
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Victor,

If one was to legally manufacture a suppressor and wanted the absolutely best performance possible, the process would begin with a "What host?" discussion.
It could very well be a disadvantage to build a FA can for anything other than a FA host.
 
I thought that might be the case. You are done with Sionics designs now. They would serve you poorly as MUCH better alternatives are available.
Sionic cans with a single exception will not cycle on a 1911. And the exception beats it out of the frame.

The next question you ask yourself is "how many rounds will I actually want to suppress?"
Some folks want to sit at the range all day and hammer away with their 1911s, that is great but is a vastly different design than the person that is designing for 1-6 rounds.
Want to bang away? You will end up with a can approximately the same length as the 1911.
1/2 dozen? Run an lithium design and it can be half that size...and weight.
You will need to dig around the web now for designs, there are a metric ton of them out there.
Stay away from monolithic baffles if you want smallest possible size, weight, best purge and suppression.
You will need a Neilson attachment as well.
Good luck.
 
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A few years ago I was lucky enough to have acquired an original Sionics M14SS-1. Long story short, I had it reverse engineered, and it turned out to be a well done copy of the original! The manufacturer even went so far as to try it on his rifle with great results! I know folks have make suppressors to look like an original but only in looks, these are nearly carbon copies of the original SIONICS suppressor Both inside and out to include a working relief valve.
I plan on using it with my XM21 rifle. Pictures when I figure out how!
 
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