so, i ran out of argument (starting near book max)

[8AteEight]

Hey all. So talking to another handloader, he stated that to save components, he just loaded 0.5gr under book Max. It started quite the discussion where his theory that "start low n work up" wasn't necessary, cuz he was going for "hunting" accuracy (what does that even mean) to 300yards, and not super tiny groups at super long range.
I contended it was physically dangerous to start near Max, but he countered with a pretty good argument that its a new gun, its still under Max, etc etc... It came to a stalemate, but he did run me out of rational argument. So, I'm looking for more argument ammo: if its NOTa about accuracy, but it IS about safety, is he in harm for just loading 0.5gr under Max and calling it good enough. Or, can someone give me rational reason that it is a safety issue, something besides "they all say so" or "its too much pressure to START with"

 

[Rob01]

Some people need to learn a lesson the hard way.

 

[Bluejazz]

Unless he knows exactly what the measurement is to the lands with the bullet he is using, he could find himself in an over pressure situation very quickly by starting at .5 gr under max.
There is a big difference on pressure when you are .050 off the lands to loading with the bullet jammed.
In my opinion he is asking for TROUBLE!

 

[BoilerUP]

Some people need to learn a lesson the hard way.

I once tried W760 in my 260 with a 123gr Amax...load was a full grain below book max, and other powders I had used (H4350, 4831SC, Varget, RL17) didn't show pressure until at least one grain over book max. So one grain under max perfectly safe, right?

I lit off that W760 load and it recoiled noticeably harder than normal; chronograph read nearly 3200fps. Once I finally got the bolt open, the primer was blown and the Lapua primer pocket toast. Thankfully the case was still intact and bolt head wasn't damaged.

That taught me a HARD lesson about temp sensitivity and how "safe" some under-max loads can(not) be.

 

[insight3b]

I'd say he's fine starting there not that I would do it but in retrospect each and every rifle I have ever owned I have handloaded for. Each and every rifle tested with loads that were worked up over maximum published charge and every rifle never showed pressure or any other un-safe sign until over max charge.

 

[Joe Kidd]

I load to hunt and have never seen max book loads in most of my rifles. I'm a firm believer in a chrony and conservatism. So what if I'm -100 to 150fps. My furry friends don't know the difference.

 

[Kevlars]

Every chamber is different. And the measured max could be off a non standard chamber. That is why it is a gauge not an absolute. But by all means let him go with it, natural selection will take care of the rest.

 

[Macmathews]

Likely not a safety issue , but can be hard on the rifle !!!

Kyle

 

[wakajawaka]

Every chamber is different.

^^^^This^^^^

 

[P7id10t]

Why argue with someone who refuses to consider the safety of a conservative approach.?
Stay safe -- what you don't know can kill you.

 

[ksthomas]

Some folks learn by reading, and others by observation, but there's ALWAYS that one guy who just has to pee on the electric fence, just to see for himself.

 

[vh20]

I think the answer is, he's playing the odds and can probably continue to get away with it as he has so far. If everything is as it should be, he probably won't hurt himself or the rifle. BUT if he runs into a situation where anything is a bit out of line, there's no safety net to keep from getting bitten hard. It sure isn't the smart approach.

 

[RUMrunner]

A lot of you are deeming this unsafe. I know many factory loads are at max pressure. would you then deem shooting factory ammo unsafe?

 

[George Az]

I don't even know where to begin. What a waste. one grain under max? I never get accuracy at max or near max loads anyway. Sometimes I find it on the lower end and sometimes in the middle. Chronograph the load. On the other hand, people can claim all kinds of velocity and want to run as hot as possible, but never use a chronograph. I read Litz states most chronos are a percentage off anyway, but one has to start somewhere. And at least once or twice I have been surprised with my fps vs what the load was supposed to deliver.

I keep reading about all these so called hunters - well if you can't hit a target of 8" at 200 yards what makes one think you are going to drop ar deep at 200 on the first shot, cold bore with a clean kill?

 

[Mordamer]

It depends on whose max load you are following. Hornady's manual has max loads for .223 rem over 1.0 grains lower than other manuals. For some bullets the max load in Hornady's manual is less than the starting load for the same bullet in some other companies manuals. When I saw this I realized how meaningless the book max loads are. I still don't start within 0.5 grains of max though. That is just asking for a blown primer. Chamber size makes a huge difference in pressure. I half seen some guns that reached high pressures at or slightly below max loads and others that could be loaded 1.0 grain over without pressure signs.

 

[Twoboxer]

Well, his practice (Max - 0.5gr) puts him at 90% to 99% of someone's idea of max load He deems it little to no risk . . . he's probably right . . . depending on who that someone is and a bunch of other variables.

But if he's at the range shooting more than 5 rounds . . . why bother? I mean, if you want to hit something, don't you want some assurances you have at least a decent load for the cartridge/firearm?

He's also missing an opportunity to load over that someone's listed max . . . if he's a hunter, that might interest him. Just seems to me like he likes to make noise and is lazy on the other stuff lol.

 

[XL Mammal]

Or, can someone give me rational reason that it is a safety issue, something besides "they all say so" or "its too much pressure to START with"

Components are cheap compared to hospital bills. Risk/reward.

 

[exx1976]

Unless this guy only buys bullets and primers 100 at a time, "saving components" is a crappy excuse for not working up a load properly. Even then, I'd buy an extra 100 of each for load development just to be sure.

That said, my bolt gun like 1.0 gr under max with Varget and an SMK, and my AR likes .6gr under max for CFE-223 and an SMK.

Is what he's doing safe? Not in my mind, but IN THAT ONE RIFLE it sounds like everything is just like it should be, so he's probably ok. In my mind, the problem is going to come when he tries to apply that same approach to another rifle (even if it's the same caliber) and that rifle is not "just like it should be".

My best advice to you is to let him keep doing what he's doing, and just make sure you're a safe distance away from him when you're shooting together.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

It depends on whose max load you are following. Hornady's manual has max loads for .223 rem over 1.0 grains lower than other manuals. For some bullets the max load in Hornady's manual is less than the starting load for the same bullet in some other companies manuals. When I saw this I realized how meaningless the book max loads are. I still don't start within 0.5 grains of max though. That is just asking for a blown primer. Chamber size makes a huge difference in pressure. I half seen some guns that reached high pressures at or slightly below max loads and others that could be loaded 1.0 grain over without pressure signs.

WHOA! One very important thing you missed here! The length of bullet varies between manufactures of different makes in the same weight/caliber range. Even different styles of the same manufacture/weight. Thus, the area of bore contact may be different between manufactures/bullet styles etc. This in many cases accounts for differences in powder charge weights listed as "max" charges. That is why many master loaders recommend that you get a book for each bullet manufacturer you commonly use, or at least read the published load data from that manufacturer. You will note that published charge weights may vary from a powder manufacturer's data versus a bullet manufacturer's data.
This is why you must always cross-check your work for safety.

 

[demolitionman]

I played the conservative approach loading for my bolt gun staying well within the lower half of reccomended load specs. I loaded conservatively. I had some accuracy issues and 3 or 4 members on the hide told me to buck up and put some more go go juice to the test. Instantly getting upwards to near max load specs my rifle came to life and the groups went from 3/4" to nearly 1 holers. Needless to say I shoot hotter loads now and read my brass and primers closely. It flies in the face of what a lot think but one of my rifles shoots "lights out" only with near max spec'd loads. Thankfully that rifle will shoot one other load respectably with a minimum charge but not close to as tight as max loads.

*max load references to per Hornady's new manual, and Lee's.

 

[ksthomas]

RUMrunner,

There's a lot more variables in play when we're talking about handloads here than with factory ammo. Most handloaders have no appreciation or understanding of just what sort of testing goes into factory ammunition. Even at that, there are occasional problems and recalled lots. And yes, if we're talking about custom rifles (i.e., short throated, tight necked, minimum chambers, etc.,) factory ammo can most definately be a problem in some guns. You want a ready example of that, look at the 223 Rem/5.56mm NATO conundrum. Same case exactly, but set up for different chambers and throats. Ditto for the 6mm BR Rem and the 6mm BR Norma. First thing that everyone needs to understand about reloading manuals is that they're not an absolute, and they aren't telling you what is "safe" and what is not. They're nothing more than a report, essentially saying that "we tried this particular combination, and these are the results we obtained. Your mileage WILL vary." If everyone would just keep that in mind, we'd avoid a lot of very avoidable trouble.

 

[pawprint2]

I'll bet he isn't using the same brass either, as all the mfgs cartrige brass meets SAAMI, "no sense in buying something different". Maybe not even the same primer given in the load data, as in "all large rifle primers are about the same". I agree with all that have pointed out a few dollars for components, a few hours spent on the range, will be cheaper and far more relaxing than any time spent in the ER. The last thing I'd like to add is a follows, so your friend has the same brass, bullet, primer,powder, is he going to be firing from the same chamber? And at the same Temp? All smokeless powder is effected by the temp, some more than others (much more), and if his/her answer is yes, I'd like to know where he got that info. Which loading manual is showing the air temp specs? Every load manual cautions you to start low and work up, there might be a reason......just saying.

 

[CharlieTN]

I would think simply looking at multiple load manuals and seeing the great variance in max loads would show someone that just starting under max would be a potential problem. Sierra's data for .308 168 loads with H4895 tops out at max where some of the other manuals I have start as minimum. I'm running just under max, getting roughly 100fps slower velocities and showing no pressure signs at all. There are just too many variables at play for me to risk it. Plus, I don't want "hunting accurate." Which for must bubba's means they can hit a 9" plate at 100 yards, or something like that.

Charlie

 

[JGorski]

Hey all. So talking to another handloader, he stated that to save components, he just loaded 0.5gr under book Max. It started quite the discussion where his theory that "start low n work up" wasn't necessary, cuz he was going for "hunting" accuracy (what does that even mean) to 300yards, and not super tiny groups at super long range.
I contended it was physically dangerous to start near Max, but he countered with a pretty good argument that its a new gun, its still under Max, etc etc... It came to a stalemate, but he did run me out of rational argument. So, I'm looking for more argument ammo: if its NOTa about accuracy, but it IS about safety, is he in harm for just loading 0.5gr under Max and calling it good enough. Or, can someone give me rational reason that it is a safety issue, something besides "they all say so" or "its too much pressure to START with"

If its for a 30-06 like the model 70 Ive got yes, I always start .5grain below max, unless Im loading for an auto. If Im trying a new load with a slightly faster burning powder I start a bit lower. Slower burning powders are more forgiving, for me anyways.

 

[Mordamer]

WHOA! One very important thing you missed here! The length of bullet varies between manufactures of different makes in the same weight/caliber range. Even different styles of the same manufacture/weight. Thus, the area of bore contact may be different between manufactures/bullet styles etc. This in many cases accounts for differences in powder charge weights listed as "max" charges. That is why many master loaders recommend that you get a book for each bullet manufacturer you commonly use, or at least read the published load data from that manufacturer. You will note that published charge weights may vary from a powder manufacturer's data versus a bullet manufacturer's data.
This is why you must always cross-check your work for safety.

I'm actually talking about manuals that have loads for the same exact bullet. You are right on Powder companies vs. bullet companies. Go to Hodgdon's website and look up their recommendation for a starting load with Varget and a 60 gr V-max in .223 remmington. Now go look up the max load in Hornady's manual for 60 V-max and Varget. Hodgdon STARTING load = 25.0 gr Varget and Hornady's MAX load = 24.9 gr Varget for the exact same freaking bullet!!!

I was just trying to make the point that depending on what manual you use your "Book Max Load" numbers could be utter BS. 0.5 grains low from one book max could be higher than another books maximum all together. I think we agree with each other for the most part.

Also, if the length of the bullet matters so much then why does Hornady list all of their load data for all bullets of the same weight as the same max loads? For instance they give the powder measurements for all 60 grain bullets as the same even though they have 3 different bullets in that weight?

 

[P7id10t]

A lot of you are deeming this unsafe. I know many factory loads are at max pressure. would you then deem shooting factory ammo unsafe?

The manufacturer sells said ammo with the representation that it is safe to fire in any production gun. If it blows up in your face and you haven't modified your gun in any way as to compromise its safety, they have deep pockets you can sue -- which will be helpful especially if you have crappy or no health insurance. None of us ever want to go there....

 

[Sniper Uncle]

I'm actually talking about manuals that have loads for the same exact bullet. You are right on Powder companies vs. bullet companies. Go to Hodgdon's website and look up their recommendation for a starting load with Varget and a 60 gr V-max in .223 remmington. Now go look up the max load in Hornady's manual for 60 V-max and Varget. Hodgdon STARTING load = 25.0 gr Varget and Hornady's MAX load = 24.9 gr Varget for the exact same freaking bullet!!!

I was just trying to make the point that depending on what manual you use your "Book Max Load" numbers could be utter BS. 0.5 grains low from one book max could be higher than another books maximum all together. I think we agree with each other for the most part.

Also, if the length of the bullet matters so much then why does Hornady list all of their load data for all bullets of the same weight as the same max loads? For instance they give the powder measurements for all 60 grain bullets as the same even though they have 3 different bullets in that weight?

Hornady probably knows that the ogive length on all their particular bullets of a certain caliber and weight given their COAL's will be equal. I still take each bullet and measure the max COAL based on my chamber/land position before I load them. If I need to load short, then I lighten the charge to match. I use QuickLoad to figure the differences and then check with other sources to be sure the data isn't too far out of whack.

 

[Rprecision]

The only thing about the practice that bothers me is scale accuracy. If your confident your dialed in, well.....game on I guess

 

[Fuzzball]

A lot of you are deeming this unsafe. I know many factory loads are at max pressure. would you then deem shooting factory ammo unsafe?

You do understand that max pressure isn't over pressure, right?

Anyone "thinking" (?) any book charge is safe just because it's in a book hasn't (yet) paid attention to the variations in books.

 

[dragonjr45]

Apologies if this has already been stated, I didn't all the replies. Starting at the minimum and working up is recommended because most people don't use the exact same components that the people who did the load data did. For example, using lapua brass in my old 308 made my Max charge 1.5 grains below the Hodgdon's data (using hodgdons varget). 1/2 grain under max book load gave huge pressure signs! Furthermore, every once in a while some powder formulas might change a little or even just be flat out inconsistent lot to lot. Those changes or inconsistency could easily send you into excessive pressure before reaching book max's. I remember reading an article on accurateshooter.com that talked about a guy having to change his 308 load by over 2 grains just to get the same velocity when he switched lots of a certain powder... that's pretty inconsistent if you ask me.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Here's perhaps a reasonable argument: The rifle, the bullets, the primers, the powder, the cases, and the reload data were all made by HUMANS. Start low and work up slow...

 

[Heman]

Hodgdon states 48gr of H4831SC with a 142gr SMK is max load in a .260. Well my course rifle will start loosening primers at 46gr and the accuracy load is 45gr.