I am going to be that guy and recommend a 223 rem. A 88 eld loaded to 2700 fps with Varget is cheap fun. Performance wise it’s only about 5-10 percent less than a Br but a hell of a lot cheaper for a beginner.
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I have fireformed .223 ai, and I shot factory ammo and hand loads like it was a regular .223 rem.
I fireformed my 7 ss breaking in the barrel, and I was shooting half moa groups with a load I threw together. I had a fireform load I would hunt with.
Everything I have heard about 6bra and 6brx is that guys shoot fireforming loads at matches and win.
Nothing about that process seems difficult or burdensome.
The BR variant 6mms are hard enough to spot hits at the longer distances during a match. Why handicap yourself even worse? Same with the ballistics, the 6br is already a compromise at distance, why give up another "5-10%"?
I get the whole "fun for a beginner" thing. But it's not "fun" to not have your impacts called at a match because no one can see them. Especially as a beginner. At the end of the day, you show up to a match to compete. Beginner or not.
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Because the vast majority of shots are inside 600 and a new shooter is going to lose a whole lot more points cause they suck than they shoot small bullets really far.
Having a light recoiling rifle will earn more points than it loses, especially for a new shooter.
BTW, I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative. I have a pretty solid buzz going over here.
Nothing wrong with a 6br but a Zermatt Origin would be my action of choice for a br or a 223. I am just thinking if on a budget like most people. A 223 rem would save him a ton of money and get more rounds down the barrel.
I just listened to a few episodes of Long Range Shooting & Custom Rifle Building Podcast by Jamie Dodson at Wolf Precision (episodes 48, 49, 51) recently...all about reloading. Some good info. I think I also heard Frank @SHLowlight say he just talked about it on Everyday Sniper Podcast in the No BS BC episodes. Good luck.
I can't argue with that. I'm not so stubborn nor naive enough to think that my way is the only good option. Didn't consider the budget side as much.
As much as I love my 223, it’s not prs competition ready.
Hell, I say the 6br is marginal, Ive had what I know have got to be hits with my dasher not called before, any less oomph is just asking for frustration in a match.
Yeah a 4” plate at 600 still swings pretty well but that 2 moa plate on a stiff hanger strap may not move at all in a center punch. If you’re competing in prs the 10-20 cents per round is just going to cost you the larger match fee.
Yes but everything has compromises.
I'm not so sure that 130gr .69BC bullet will be difficult to self spot with, or manage recoil, in a BR sized case.
It's going to be easier to identify hits and misses.
Probably get even better barrel life.
And BC, BC, BC....
It's .3 mil less wind drift at 1000Y in a 10 mph wind compared to my 6mmBR load.
??!!
I've ran out of time, I've made bad wind calls. I've struggled with positions, I've had trouble finding the right target...
But...I don't recall ever walking off a stage and saying to myself that I would have done so much better if only I had a 6BR.
I get that guys love their sixes and for good reason. There's nothing wrong with that. I started running a 6x47L back in 2007 and it was great, but I have moved on. It was not as competitive for F class as I needed it to be at the time and I will admit it is much better suited to PRS. Short barrel life was also a deal breaker with the 6x47L. I ran large primer brass in mine BTW because small primers suck in a 6x47L, if you haven't figured that out by now.
Having said that, guys tend to put a little too much emphasis on what the pros use as though that is the reason they are called pros.
I would bet that guys like Keith Baker, Jon Pynch and Dave Preston would still be at the top nationally if they switched to 223s with 88 grain ELDs.
I would also bet that you could give Dave Prestons rifle the the last place shooter in the last match you went to and he would still be the last place shooter.
I'm now shooting a 1:7 223 with a long throat seating 88s out around 2.6". My Accurate Mags have been milled to feed 2.630" OAL. I'm getting 2800 FPS using Varget or 8208XBR with IVI brass that has been FL sized with a small base die. I get 2850 FPS with brass that's sized with regular FL dies and I easily get 2900 FPS on a cold day with brass that has been fire formed and sized with a light 0.002" shoulder bump. There's a 1 grain load difference between fire formed cases and small base die resized cases. This load is aggressive but not unsafe.
The BC of the 88 ELD is within 0.01 G1 BC points of most popular sixes. My velocity spreads are around 20 FPS ES and accuracy is a solid 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.
In practice I have shot side by side with my buddies who all have sixes and my come ups are within a click of any of theirs out to 800 yards.
So, ya... I have less recoil and a little greater velocity spread. My accuracy is not as good as a guy might expect with a small 6, but in practical terms, not by much.
Do I expect to win at Meaford next year? No, but I will have a good time and I think I will do just as well as I would if I still had a 6.
For F Class, with a 1/2 MOA bull... I wouldn't have a chance against a 6x47L with my 223, but PRS has more moving parts and bigger targets too, so the payoff isn't the same.
If a young guy is starting from scratch, has no rifle yet and no reloading gear, sure go ahead and build a 6.
If a guy is already balls deep in quality reloading gear for a 223 and doesn't want to burn through a few thousand dollars tooling up for another caliber, then extend the throat on a 223 with a fast twist, mill the AccurateMags and you'll chase them well.
As for spotting impacts... seriously? Guys are happy to run 95 grains in their 6BR but claim that we wont spot impacts with 88s. Do the math on that... Does 7 grains make that much difference?
But...I don't recall ever walking off a stage and saying to myself that I would have done so much better if only I had a 6BR.
I get that guys love their sixes and for good reason. There's nothing wrong with that. I started running a 6x47L back in 2007 and it was great, but I have moved on. It was not as competitive for F class as I needed it to be at the time and I will admit it is much better suited to PRS. Short barrel life was also a deal breaker with the 6x47L. I ran large primer brass in mine BTW because small primers suck in a 6x47L, if you haven't figured that out by now.
Having said that, guys tend to put a little too much emphasis on what the pros use as though that is the reason they are called pros.
I would bet that guys like Keith Baker, Jon Pynch and Dave Preston would still be at the top nationally if they switched to 223s with 88 grain ELDs.
I would also bet that you could give Dave Prestons rifle the the last place shooter in the last match you went to and he would still be the last place shooter.
I'm now shooting a 1:7 223 with a long throat seating 88s out around 2.6". My Accurate Mags have been milled to feed 2.630" OAL. I'm getting 2800 FPS using Varget or 8208XBR with IVI brass that has been FL sized with a small base die. I get 2850 FPS with brass that's sized with regular FL dies and I easily get 2900 FPS on a cold day with brass that has been fire formed and sized with a light 0.002" shoulder bump. There's a 1 grain load difference between fire formed cases and small base die resized cases. This load is aggressive but not unsafe.
The BC of the 88 ELD is within 0.01 G1 BC points of most popular sixes. My velocity spreads are around 20 FPS ES and accuracy is a solid 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.
In practice I have shot side by side with my buddies who all have sixes and my come ups are within a click of any of theirs out to 800 yards.
So, ya... I have less recoil and a little greater velocity spread. My accuracy is not as good as a guy might expect with a small 6, but in practical terms, not by much.
Do I expect to win at Meaford next year? No, but I will have a good time and I think I will do just as well as I would if I still had a 6.
For F Class, with a 1/2 MOA bull... I wouldn't have a chance against a 6x47L with my 223, but PRS has more moving parts and bigger targets too, so the payoff isn't the same.
If a young guy is starting from scratch, has no rifle yet and no reloading gear, sure go ahead and build a 6.
If a guy is already balls deep in quality reloading gear for a 223 and doesn't want to burn through a few thousand dollars tooling up for another caliber, then extend the throat on a 223 with a fast twist, mill the AccurateMags and you'll chase them well.
As for spotting impacts... seriously? Guys are happy to run 95 grains in their 6BR but claim that we wont spot impacts with 88s. Do the math on that... Does 7 grains make that much difference?
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I don't think anyone suggested that shooting a 6mm would automatically make you a better shooter. But, to deny the compromises is silly.
Your come ups are within a click of your buddies...what the fuck does that matter when PRS matches are all known distance. It's the wind drift that's the show stopper. Does your .223 not get bullied by wind gusts a bit more than your friends?
Again, not saying that you can't perform well at a match with a .223. Just that the 6mm are a little more well rounded for the task at hand. The ridiculous inherent accuracy of the BR variants alone seems attractive.
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Okay, your grasp of geometry has come under question...
If the come ups are within a click of the other guy, would you not therefore conclude the wind drift is also just as close?
The two values do correlate you know.
Here's how BC works...
Fire two bullets at the same speed...
One has a G1 BC of .500 and the other has a G1 BC of .600.
The velocity at 500 yards of the .500 BC bullet will be the same as the 0.600 BC bullet at 600 yards.
The wind drift in MOA at 500 yards of the 0.500 BC bullet will be the same as the 600 yard wind drift of the 0.600 BC bullet.
In this case we are discussing a BC difference of 0.010.
That means a 10 yard performance difference in both drop and wind drift. The difference is not going to make any headlines.
If the 223 was released today for the first time and the SAMMI spec was registered configured at 2.600" OAL for 88s, it would not have the prejudice with the under performer stigma it has because it has been traditionally offered with 55 grainers. Rounds like the 6.5 Creed came out of the gate with the right bullet and are worshiped because of it, but it's nothing architecturally special... Its just balanced correctly, with the powder charge about 1/3 of the bullet weight. That's a common trait of all popular long range rounds.
As for accuracy... it can be achieved with a 223 as well. Run a tight neck and turn the brass just like guys often do with their favorite sixes. I have a buddy who is an F Class shooter who's been running a 223 forever. He turns his necks and his accuracy is insane. He is the man to beat at 300 meters even in F Class and against open class shooters. He holds his own out to 600 for sure. So don't assume the 6 is just accurate because its a 6. Lot's of rifles in other calibers are accurate too.
Come to think about it, maybe I'll spin up the next barrel for my 223 with a tight neck.
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I took his class back in 2011. It got me into long range shooting. If you're considering it... I recommend it
I did a less than stellar job of representing my thought process here. I am more than aware of how both geometry and ballistics work.
In your specific example, yes trajectories and drift would be close. Not that this does anything to help seeing the impacts in heavy mirage.
I agree about the 6.5 Creedmoor popularity being attributed to the fact that it's very well balanced and just well rounded in general. Ruger coming out with the rpr kicked things into high gear as well.
No. No on both velocity and windage.
Using JBM, default inputs, with a 308 with a .5 G1...
And now, a 308 with a .6 G1...
You are missing something bud...
You are comparing both at 500 yards.
Show us the 600 yard numbers for the 0.600 BC. Those will closely correlate the the 500 yard numbers of the 0.500 BC.
| 600 | -68.6 | -10.9 | 20.4 | 3.2 | 2113.3 | 1.893 | 1982.9 | 0.715 | 125.8 | 20.0 |
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Oh, my mistake. I did not realize we were talking about different yard lines in order to prove there was no difference between the two.
Small primers work perfectly fine in 6x47.
If you can’t easily get sub 10sd and around 20es with 6x47, you likely have a barrel that used a weird reamer spec. Lots of bastard 6x47 reamers our there.
If you can’t easily get sub 10sd and around 20es with 6x47, you likely have a barrel that used a weird reamer spec. Lots of bastard 6x47 reamers our there.
I spent 300 rounds testing loads for that bloody thing in the winter. Velocity spreads were never consistent. I discussed it with both Tubbs and Salazar at the time. There was nothing wrong with anything except an inherent small primer weal ignition defect in the 6.5x47L parent case design that is magnified when necked down to 6mm.
Those velocity spreads are lower if you use large primers and more consistent over a wider temperature range.
I had to turn my chronograph off between shots to be sure it got a read because it was so often the same number. Might have had 3 FPS ES over 10 shots with large primers after forming my cases from 6XC brass.
Try it or don't try it, I don't care. But don't challenge what you have not tested against a guy who did.
As you said it's fine... Well fine for you is not fine for everybody else. I found better.
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You said they don’t work. They work fine. You’re wrong. Plenty of people getting very low ES and SD with them.
I’ve tested plenty. You keep peddling your bullshit here and putting out bad info. You’ll find you won’t be able to.
6 br is the same as a .308.
Also, the "You will lose points at far targets" isn't quite as persuasive, though it has some merit, when the AG cup was won by a dude shooting BRA or BRX...
The times you might lose a point because of an RO is kinda mininal. There are often more than one eyes at a match, especially local matches.
Again, the points you lose from a bad RO will be much less than you gain by having a rifle you can drive easier with worse fundamentals.
There are very few people out there losing matches from a bad call at 800+.
If you get to that level, it’s something to possibly consider. But most don’t need to factor this into their decision. Or at least it should be very low on the priority list.
If you get to that level, it’s something to possibly consider. But most don’t need to factor this into their decision. Or at least it should be very low on the priority list.
Except for poor barrel life, 6x47L is a fantastic cartridge.
I still have most of my original brass that I bought back in 2007, and with 35-ish firings on them, most of those still hold a primer well. That's 4 barrels worth and partway through the 5th. I own my own reamer and custom dies which helps.
Living at 7000ft elevation when practicing in cold weather, and winning a bunch of matches at 5000ft elevation, I never once had a hangfire due to ignition problems, but I used CCI450 primers exclusively.
Yep, a 115DTAC at 3000fps is a wonderful thing and still has low recoil using a braked heavy rifle. SD at 7 was common. Darn sure accurate enough for steel matches.
I tried the 223AI at 2.6 OACL in a 7 twist barrel. Except for those 88's blowing up when the barrel got dirty it was a good round. But the ES and precision of the 6mmBR was for sure superior in my case. Definitely easier to see where a 105gr 6mm bullet hits compared to the 88! Not that I didn't love the lower recoil of the 223AI! I sold it to a friend with full disclosure, who rarely shoots and doesn't mind keeping the barrel clean as well as shooting 75's.
It's the longer distances I shoot often that makes my needs a little different than most. I still want low recoil and the least wind drift I can get away with, as well as long barrel life.
I still have a 6.5 Saum that sends 140 hybrids at 3175 fps which weighs 24lbs and has a massive brake. It has a 29" 8.5 twist barrel so the load is mild and should get decent barrel life.
Choose your own compromises I guess....
I still have most of my original brass that I bought back in 2007, and with 35-ish firings on them, most of those still hold a primer well. That's 4 barrels worth and partway through the 5th. I own my own reamer and custom dies which helps.
Living at 7000ft elevation when practicing in cold weather, and winning a bunch of matches at 5000ft elevation, I never once had a hangfire due to ignition problems, but I used CCI450 primers exclusively.
Yep, a 115DTAC at 3000fps is a wonderful thing and still has low recoil using a braked heavy rifle. SD at 7 was common. Darn sure accurate enough for steel matches.
I tried the 223AI at 2.6 OACL in a 7 twist barrel. Except for those 88's blowing up when the barrel got dirty it was a good round. But the ES and precision of the 6mmBR was for sure superior in my case. Definitely easier to see where a 105gr 6mm bullet hits compared to the 88! Not that I didn't love the lower recoil of the 223AI! I sold it to a friend with full disclosure, who rarely shoots and doesn't mind keeping the barrel clean as well as shooting 75's.
It's the longer distances I shoot often that makes my needs a little different than most. I still want low recoil and the least wind drift I can get away with, as well as long barrel life.
I still have a 6.5 Saum that sends 140 hybrids at 3175 fps which weighs 24lbs and has a massive brake. It has a 29" 8.5 twist barrel so the load is mild and should get decent barrel life.
Choose your own compromises I guess....
This website has some info on that... https://precisionrifleblog.com/category/what-the-pros-use/
I switched to N540. Very comparable to varget.Apparently everyone and their mailman is shooting a BR, I’m having a hard time finding a FL Bushing die or HS gauge anywhere in stock... not to mention Varget
Dave Preston was recently on a podcast and said he had noticeably worse results at long range stages when he got away from his 6cm as he lost 1-2 tenths of windage with slower rounds. Obviously his noticeably worse results are probably 1-4 less impacts here and there, but that’s a big deal when you’re at the top.
If the top guys would still be the top with .223.....they would damn sure be using it as less recoil is always better in this game. But the fact is, they have found the 6mm is about the line where things like less recoil start being of less value than spotting shots (harder with the .22 stuff).
As I said above, most shooters don’t need to care about getting a bad call from an RO, or not seeing a shot here and there. But, guys like Preston and the like suffer greatly with just 1 or 2 points being lost.
As usual, the guy you quoted us on some half assed theory. He won’t be replying to this thread any longer as there’s a lot of newer shooters reading that might mistake him for actually knowing something worthwhile.
Honestly just pick any of the 6BR variants and call it a day. The difference between 6BR (slowest) and 6Dasher (fastest) is maybe 125fps at most, but honestly less than that most of the time. My 6BR load with 105's was running 2880 fps, and my current Dasher load with 105's is running 2930fps. The Dasher load isn't running quite as hot as the BR load, but the BR still had 40+ fps of headroom before I got concerned with pressure. I shot 115's at 2725fps with BR, and I also shot 115's at 2800fps with the straight BR.
The difference between the two (2880fps vs 2930fps with 105's) at 1,000 yards is 0.3 MRAD of elevation and 0.1 MRAD of windage. The simple truth is there isn't enough of a difference between BR, BRA, and Dasher to make the debate that one of them is better than the others. I switched to Dasher because I wanted to try out the Alpha brass for it, not because I expected to see noticeable or measurable performance improvements.
Pick any one of them (BR, BRA, or Dasher) and you'll be happy. They're all super easy to load for and they all will feed just fine with MDT magazines (or, in my case, I liked using ARC mags with my Impact because I didn't need a spacer kit for perfect feeding). You can get the 6GT if you want to be the cool kid or you want to just use any old AICS magazine you find, but you'll just have a little less load development information available to use as a starting point. If you use any of the BR variants you won't perform any better or worse than if you picked a different BR variant, and they'll all work great for you!
The difference between the two (2880fps vs 2930fps with 105's) at 1,000 yards is 0.3 MRAD of elevation and 0.1 MRAD of windage. The simple truth is there isn't enough of a difference between BR, BRA, and Dasher to make the debate that one of them is better than the others. I switched to Dasher because I wanted to try out the Alpha brass for it, not because I expected to see noticeable or measurable performance improvements.
Pick any one of them (BR, BRA, or Dasher) and you'll be happy. They're all super easy to load for and they all will feed just fine with MDT magazines (or, in my case, I liked using ARC mags with my Impact because I didn't need a spacer kit for perfect feeding). You can get the 6GT if you want to be the cool kid or you want to just use any old AICS magazine you find, but you'll just have a little less load development information available to use as a starting point. If you use any of the BR variants you won't perform any better or worse than if you picked a different BR variant, and they'll all work great for you!
Is barrel life important to you? Then none of them.
Actually with my little 6 ARC I'm banking she'll go 3000+. Bore area vs. powder charge is pretty close to .223.
Is barrel life important to you? Then none of them.
I was of the understanding that it was pretty safe to assume a mild 6BR would do
2,500-3,000 rounds?
No?
Whatever I do, my next barrel is certainly going to be the abandonment of 6mmCM.
I was of the under the impression everyone was fire forming Dashers, shooting Creedmoors and buying gay tigers because the 6BR didn't have enough ass.
Lots of people think they can make up for their in ability with speed
Running 105s at around 2800-2850 in a good barrel should easily get you more than 3000 rounds of 1/2 moa shooting, based on the experiences of a number of shooters using them here.
It depends what you are looking for and what part of the country you are doing most of your competing. Here in the SE, we are seeing more 6BR than any single other cartridge at PRS matches.
My br just hit 2100 rounds. The barrel is still looking really good. I only bought 3k Berger 105s with it and I'm beginning to think that was a mistake
Yeah because a deer rifle I use to own is totally relevant to a prs discussion.But not you, huh? That's why you shoot a 30-06.
I wish I knew how to shoot a rifle.... what an elite group....
At what point did I even suggest I was such a prolific marksman compared to the rest of you, who ever the rest of you is.
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I’m a fan of something from the BR variant.
they have all been mentioned here for good reason. Accurate, consistent, and Easy.
I went with the easiest button of them all. 6 dasher running alpha brass. Varget powder. Done!
they have all been mentioned here for good reason. Accurate, consistent, and Easy.
I went with the easiest button of them all. 6 dasher running alpha brass. Varget powder. Done!
The br variants are the easy button. I'm going to move to a dasher for most matches because my wife already shoots dasher. I was clinging to my big 6 because of impact energy. 115 DTACS at 3000+ hit targets pretty hard. The only other advantages are if shooting really far where you are in transgenic with a 6br but not with a bigger 6. The wind advantages in real life are minimal to nonexistent in terms of mph. I've posted the numbers before so I will not take the time to do it again now.
I have 3 barrels worth of components to use up for 243ai, but I will have a Dasher barrel available from now on. Lapua brass hydroformed by Hunt's Long Range, 32 gr of Varget and a 105 has always been well below .5 moa with no load development. I just did it yesterday on a new barrel and the first 2 groups were around .35 using hornady 105 bthp. Better bullets and seating depth tuning would tighten it up more. With 243 ackley I have to do load development to get those numbers.
The br variants are the easy button for consistency and load development.
I have 3 barrels worth of components to use up for 243ai, but I will have a Dasher barrel available from now on. Lapua brass hydroformed by Hunt's Long Range, 32 gr of Varget and a 105 has always been well below .5 moa with no load development. I just did it yesterday on a new barrel and the first 2 groups were around .35 using hornady 105 bthp. Better bullets and seating depth tuning would tighten it up more. With 243 ackley I have to do load development to get those numbers.
The br variants are the easy button for consistency and load development.
Are you using the 5 round magazine or is there a 10 round available for the Howa Mini Action?
Don’t know about any money trees (unless you own a well managed pecan orchard) but I did see the end of a rainbow once, at the fence of a tiny rural churche’s graveyard.
If you are worried about feeding, go 6gt. Close to the 6 dasher and some of the other smaller 6's, but none of the feeding issues. Barrel life should still be decent as well, only challenge will be load data but Varget is what it was designed to use.
There’s still feeding issues at times with 6gt. Have seen several need them same tweaking as br cases. With mag kits, br cases feed about the same.
Load data is all over the place for 6gt.
