Some help on 178gr A-Max load

marksman25

marksman25

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Nov 4, 2010
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#1
I need some input on a 308 Win load with 178gr A-Max. 24" barrel with 1:10 twist. Here is what I am using.

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Winchester Case [*]Federal 210m primer [*]Varget powder [/list]
All cases full length sized, trimmed to 2.005, OAL at .010 from the lands. I shot a ladder test at 400 yards starting with 38.5gr and ending at 43.5gr. I got a node between 40.5 and 41gr of powder. I then loaded five round groups at .2gr increments for this node. I got two groups out of this that were sub moa, but the velocity is low to mid 2500 range. This doesn't seem to be enough push to get the downrange performance I am after, ie it does not out perform my 168gr load. So here is my question. I loaded to just a little past the Hornady book max for the ladder test, and did not get another node at the higher loads. The Hodgdon data shows a max charge that is significanly higher(45gr). I did not see any pressure signs. Should I try another ladder with a higher max, or maybe try different powder. Is anyone out there using this bullet with good results? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 
#2
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

My favorite load for those components is 43.5g at 2.8 coal which has done pretty well in a couple different rifles. If you aren't showing any pressure I'd try something between 43.5 and 44...there are quite a few people around here who go for the Hodgdon max of 45 with good results. Hope this helps...
 
#4
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

I'm using reloader 15, but at 3 grains past the book max. I found a node at 40.5 and that was 2350fps. Accurate but slow. Went back and worked up past the max and found the 43.5 node and 2675fps. Moral is the book max is not always the max, but be careful and watch for pressure signs working up.
 
#5
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

I would add a pic of the ladder test, but I'm not sure how. Example of technology kicking my ass. The dispersion past the node seems to be very even up to 43.5gr. The last three are at POA or higher, suggesting that this is closer to the velocity that I want. I used my 168gr dope +.2mil for the test.
 
#7
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: P25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need some input on a 308 Win load with 178gr A-Max. 24" barrel with 1:10 twist. Here is what I am using.

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Winchester Case [*]Federal 210m primer [*]Varget powder [/list]
All cases full length sized, trimmed to 2.005....

So here is my question. I loaded to just a little past the Hornady book max for the ladder test, and did not get another node at the higher loads. The Hodgdon data shows a max charge that is significanly higher(45gr). I did not see any pressure signs. Should I try another ladder with a higher max, or maybe try different powder. Is anyone out there using this bullet with good results? Any input would be greatly appreciated. </div></div>

I never found Varget to be that consistent with the 178AMAX. I certainly wouldn't overload it beyond "factory recommendations"--I know that those specs can be "lawyer-based", but still, I figure if I gotta go beyond the "max" for an accurate load, I need to step up into a different powder choice.

I shot your bullet choice through 3 rifles, a GAP Rem700 24" 1-12, an ancient bone-stock OEM Rem700 BDL 24" 1-11, and an M1a Super Match 22" 1-10. While the GAP only has about 160 rounds through it, I fired ~1500 through the OEM 700, and the M1A had about a 2000-round count of 178's. The best accuracy I ever got was .234" at 100yd out of the GAP 700 using a 178AMAX 4064 load combination. That was during the break-in; it went directly to two long-distance matches from that 40-round "break-in" and hasn't been tested further since then. 4064 is responsible for my best-ever recorded 5-shot group (out of the OEM 700)- .119" at 100yd. Mostly I shoot .5-.7MOA (depending on the rifle) out to ~400yd and drop off from there... I'm nuthin' special behind a rifle for all my regimented reloading pains.

178 AMAX's *really* outperformed the 168's (SMK's, AMAX's and even the J4's) at 500+ yards, shooting just barely even with the 168 J4s (my favorite for accuracy and/or cost) under 600yd.

However, my load was drastically different from yours. I used LC brass and graduated to Lapua later--not for accuracy, but for case-prep shortcutting. I liked the ease with which RL-15 reloaded, and traded its' ease and slightly lesser accuracy over the pain-in-the-ass reloading procedure changes of the long-rod extruded powder of IMR4064. 4064 was the most accurate for me; velocity and BC was comparable to RL-15's for me. I probably lost ~.05-10% accuracy 'stepping down' to RL-15... it was hard to tell how much was me and "any given day" and how much of the loss of accuracy was the powder change--but it seemed consistent enough to be "measurable".

So, my loads were:

178AMAX
LC Brass
F<span style="font-weight: bold">GM</span> 210 primers
IMR4064 43.2gr
2650fps (M1A)

or

178AMAX
Lapua
F<span style="font-weight: bold">GM </span>210 primers
RL-15 43.5gr
2650fps (M1A)
 
#8
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

DSCN1130.jpg
 
#9
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

I have had good results with tha 178g A-max and 44.5g of Varget in Lapua brass in a 26" TRG they are just under 2700fps. Ill have to watch the pressure when the temp warms up up here though.
 
#10
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

I just started using these my self, I was using the 168 A-MAX's for 7 years and I thought they were the end all be all out of my stock 700 police 26" 1:12. Im loading the 178's in Lapua brass full length sized and trimmed to 2.005" / Federal 210M / 44.4 gr. of Varget and I was seating them to an OAL of 2.939" (.015" jump) but they were more accurate at 2.81" and they fit in the magazine which was a plus. 1/2" to 3/4" groups at 200 yards. 3/4" to 1" at 300 yards.
 
#12
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

According to Optimum Barrel Time by way of QuickLoad, using 178-gr A-Maxes with Varget from a 24" barrel, I've got an accuracy node at 2561 fps (@10') and another at 2757 fps (@10'). My range data backs up the predictions.

With FC brass, CCI BR2 primers and a 2.80" OAL, I get to the lower node on 41.1 grains and the upper node on 44.9. Hornady's recommended max load is 43.2 grains. With that 44.9-grain load, the only adverse pressure sign I get is loose primer pockets after 2-3 loads, which is not unusual with FC brass.

The slower load will hit break velocity at about 800 yards. The faster load should make almost 900.
 
#13
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to Optimum Barrel Time by way of QuickLoad, using 178-gr A-Maxes with Varget from a 24" barrel, I've got an accuracy node at 2561 fps (@10') and another at 2757 fps (@10'). My range data backs up the predictions.

With FC brass, CCI BR2 primers and a 2.80" OAL, I get to the lower node on 41.1 grains and the upper node on 44.9. Hornady's recommended max load is 43.2 grains. With that 44.9-grain load, the only adverse pressure sign I get is loose primer pockets after 2-3 loads, which is not unusual with FC brass.

The slower load will hit break velocity at about 800 yards. The faster load should make almost 900. </div></div>

This seems to hold up with my prelim range data. Bottom node from 40.3gr to 41.3gr ranged from 2520 to 2590 so your velocity prediction falls in that range. Actually my 41.1gr load averaged 2572fps. I guess I need to work up to the higher node which will be closer to the Hodgdon max of 45gr. It still makes me a little nervous that Hornady and Hodgdon list a max that is so much different, but at least Hodgdon is showing their data with the same components that I am using. Thanks for the input.
 
#14
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

With Lapua brass/cci br2 primers, .0010" off my lands
I found my low (and best) node at 42.3grn varget, also at 2590fps
Out of my 26" 1/10.

For I high node, I found Viht N550 to give me a good velocity boost,
47.2 grn, at 2730fps.. Sub MOA out to 1k, but started to get loose primer
Pockets about the 5th reload, so I quit using that load.

Any bullet weight over 175grn I always go for Vihtn550 first now,
I've found that I get much more consistent velocities all the way thru development, burns cleaner, and meters out the chargemaster better than varget
smile.gif
 
#15
Re: Some help on 178gr A-Max load

Well I tried 42.6gr and 42.8gr and both shot sub MOA. Velocity on the 42.8 was around 2680. I think I will just shoot this for a little while and see how it works at longer range. The chrono may be lying to me. This velocity seems a little high for the charge weight compared to what other guys are posting.
 
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