I've been doing a lot of fly fishing along the Idaho & Montana border lately. The area is full of mountain lions, bears, moose and reports of wolves. I'm looking for hard cast 180gn .357 bullets similar to what Underwood uses in their ammo. I would just buy the Underwood ammo but it is way too expensive to practice with, so I want to roll my own. My .44 is bigger & heaver than I like to carry while fly fishing, my Python is perfect. Who makes your favorite hard cast?
- Thread starter MJF
- Start date
You can get coated hardcasts from Bengal Bullets as well, they even have a 220gr hardcast for that 357, which should increase the probability of good straight-line penetration. 245 sectional density on that gal is good for a handgun, that's for sure. 180gr lowers that all the way down to 200.
They do have a 187gr as well, if you like lighter bullets in defensive situations against large animals for some reason.
They do have a 187gr as well, if you like lighter bullets in defensive situations against large animals for some reason.
Bear Creek makes a 180 gr flat point.
They also have a 230 gr wadcutter.
www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com
38/357 cal 230 gr Bowling Pin bullet
38/357 cal 230 gr FP coated bullets for reloading
www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com 
I use to fish the St. Joe and occasionally rivers in the Bitterroots south of Missoula. My understanding was you could run into the occasional grizzly, especially hiking north of Avery on the St. Joe. You might want to think about something bigger than a 357. I carried my 1895G 45-70; never had to use it.
I do run a Bear Creek 180 in my 1894 357 with a stout load of H110. It’s a good bullet, but not my choice for bear possibilities.
I do run a Bear Creek 180 in my 1894 357 with a stout load of H110. It’s a good bullet, but not my choice for bear possibilities.
I've purchased 45-70 from T&B before with success.
The bullets are 15-16 BHN hardcast whether they are lubed or polymer coated, mostly what's in stock is coated but uncoated is easy to order.
The bullets are 15-16 BHN hardcast whether they are lubed or polymer coated, mostly what's in stock is coated but uncoated is easy to order.
@MJF
www.montanabulletworks.com
You can get good hardcast bullets here.
Done right so they really hammer heavy bone and stay together.
Not all hard cast are created equal.
How the hardness is obtained matters.
Montana Bullet Works - Custom Ladle Cast Bullets
Extensive selection of hard cast bullets from original LBT, RCBS, & Lyman moulds. Custom ladle cast for handloaders: both competitive & recreational shooters.
www.montanabulletworks.com You can get good hardcast bullets here.
Done right so they really hammer heavy bone and stay together.
Not all hard cast are created equal.
How the hardness is obtained matters.
Those look great. Does the procedure used to obtain the bullets hardness effect the bullets as far as possible fragmentation on impact? I also like the look of those Bengal bullets.@MJF
Montana Bullet Works - Custom Ladle Cast Bullets
Extensive selection of hard cast bullets from original LBT, RCBS, & Lyman moulds. Custom ladle cast for handloaders: both competitive & recreational shooters.
You can get good hardcast bullets here.
Done right so they really hammer heavy bone and stay together.
Not all hard cast are created equal.
How the hardness is obtained matters.
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Bear Creek makes a 180 gr flat point.
They also have a 230 gr wadcutter.
38/357 cal 230 gr Bowling Pin bullet
38/357 cal 230 gr FP coated bullets for reloading
I have a bunch of their 230 gr wadcutters I use for subsonic loads from a suppressed 357 Contender. They're good for that, but definitely not what I'd choose for a magnum defense load. Their effect on target (meat, and simulations) is much less impressive than a high velocity 165-180gr.
Hahah. I carry Montana Bullet Works 200gr WFN-GC hardcast in my Glock 40 10mm in a chest rig specifically for fly fishing in dangerous game areas.
The guys at MBW are very knowledgeable and said to pick a load in the 1100-1200 range you can shoot accurately for this bullet and they will penetrate perfectly. I worked up this load specifically to mimic Underwood 200gr HC.. my load is more accurate than Underwood.
We have lots of test data, targets in the 10mm loading thread.
Literally received my G40 back from Barsto today from having their Match Target barrel custom fit into my gun and test fired with my MBW 200gr WFN-GC loads I sent them...
I also use the MBW 200gr WFN-PB practice bullet which shoots great for practice
The guys at MBW are very knowledgeable and said to pick a load in the 1100-1200 range you can shoot accurately for this bullet and they will penetrate perfectly. I worked up this load specifically to mimic Underwood 200gr HC.. my load is more accurate than Underwood.
We have lots of test data, targets in the 10mm loading thread.
Literally received my G40 back from Barsto today from having their Match Target barrel custom fit into my gun and test fired with my MBW 200gr WFN-GC loads I sent them...
I also use the MBW 200gr WFN-PB practice bullet which shoots great for practice
Yes, internetz chatter indicates many smart people are moving to the Glock g20 and g40 loaded with 200-220gr lead hardcast at 1200-1300 FPS for defense against large predators to include Kodiak and polar bear. 15 rounds is more comforting than 6-7, and pistols have less felt recoil than wheel guns, which may help when one handing it if a bear is on top of you.
That was my reasoning when I went to the G40... 15rd makes me feel better. Well placed shots are always key but damn I feel better with 15rd vs 6-7 if my life depends on it...
For reference, Underwood 200gr HC factory ammo out of my G40 OEM barrel chronos at 1201
Thanks for the extra details Padom.
thats a good testimonial.
MBW has been around making bone crushing bullets a long time.
I will admit after I found them and their quality and CS was so good, I stopped looking.
No real need.
I use a 460 in a g21 and run a 260 at same speed. 1150 or so.
Like a darn freight train
thats a good testimonial.
MBW has been around making bone crushing bullets a long time.
I will admit after I found them and their quality and CS was so good, I stopped looking.
No real need.
I use a 460 in a g21 and run a 260 at same speed. 1150 or so.
Like a darn freight train
@MJF
Montana Bullet Works - Custom Ladle Cast Bullets
Extensive selection of hard cast bullets from original LBT, RCBS, & Lyman moulds. Custom ladle cast for handloaders: both competitive & recreational shooters.
You can get good hardcast bullets here.
Done right so they really hammer heavy bone and stay together.
Not all hard cast are created equal.
How the hardness is obtained matters.
Another vote for Montana Bullet..I run their 180gr gas checked bullet in my 1894cst at around 1800fps or so. Very hard hitter. Very nice bullets
They've slowed that load down then. This was one of the loads that got Underwood their start, and at the time it was faster than that out of a G20 and 5" 1911. The G40 is capable of a bit more.
I have a bunch of it purchased 6 months ago or so... I also have Buffalo Bore as well thst was very similar all out of my stock OEM G40 barrel.
I'll be rechecking it out of this new Barsto barrel that came yesterday
Have any of you tried the coated bullets? If so, how do you like them. I’ve always used a uncoated lubed bullet, but I’m willing to try a coated one if the work as good or better.
I use the coated practice bullet from MBW in my 10mm. Way cheaper than the WFN Gas check lubed bullets....
In general I’m a fan of coated vs not for most pistol applications. The coatings are solid and IMO make cast lead easy. The only lubed lead I use is a gas checked bullet for hot rodded .357 rifle loads. That would be where coated fall short is higher velocity rounds
Interesting opinion, since a decent coating holds up well past 3,000 fps. If your coated bullets don’t, then it’s back to the basics to figure out why.
And heads up: gas checks work fine on coated bullets too. But you don’t need them in a 357 Mag rifle. They’re still a good idea in a revolver, and it’s not about the velocity. But a 357 Mag rifle has no barrel/cylinder gap.
Gas checks are a good idea in AR15s and other gas operated rifles too for the same reason as the revolver; the gas port will cause gas cutting of the bullet base without them.
It’s not my experience, just what I’ve seen on the bullet manufacturers notes. I realize some of that is du to Brinell but even the 22+ BHN had restrictions below 2k. Also never heard of anyone taking cast lead to 3k fps…
I was always told to use GC in the rifle loads since we’re running them hot and without it, you could increase leading from burn off, regardless of how good the bullet to bore fit is. This was info from SASSnet forum.
You're trying to apply conventional "wisdom" from lubed cast bullets to coated bullets. They don't function under the same set of rules.
In most cases, the limitations with coated bullets have nothing to do with velocity, it's all about pressure, flame cutting (barrel/cylinder gap or gas ports), and bullet fit if you're just trying to avoid leading. Hardness comes into play for accuracy but has very little to do with leading of coated bullets, unlike for wax lubed bullets.
Of course if you coat your own with a good quality powder coating you can make a better bullet than the commercial stuff. But if I were to buy commercial coated bullets I'd start by looking for bullets with no lube grooves; the empty lube grooves collapse under pressure.
So i'm not discounting your thoughts here as I am not as schooled in this, and generally I have appreciated your insight into most topics, but I'm a little confused on what you're saying.
It is my understanding that for traditional wax lubed lead bullets like my 180gr Montana Bulletworks, the pressure/heat can melt the back end of the bullet if ran hard enough regardless of the hardness, bullet to bore fit, or cylinder gap(no gap in rifles). Meaning you can only get lead alloys so hard before enough pressure and heat will start melting/flame cutting the back of the bullet. This is why every lead bullet website lists a max velocity in a given situation, and one reason Gas Checked bullets exist. Correct me if I'm wrong?
Now for coatings you're saying that the coating itself can now withstand that heat/pressure and therefore does not adhere to the same rules? so I can take my 125gr coated bullet and ramp it up to 2200fps in my .357 rifle and as long as bore to bullet fit is good, I should get no leading?
So, a couple points to clear up that might help:
- "Coating" has been used to universally describe any coated bullet, but really there are two main types of coatings, and they do perform differently: powder coating, which is a slick and flexible polymer layer applied by baking on a dry powder, and "Hi Tek" coating or variations on it under different brand names, which is some other type of coating applied wet (usually by tumbling) before baking. My personal experience (I'll point out that I was one of the first to experiment with powder coating bullets in the US, so it's been a while) has shown me that the Hi-Tek coated bullets don't stand up to the same level of abuse in terms of velocity, pressure, bullet sizing, etc. Unfortunately, most commercial coated bullets are coated with that stuff, rather than real powder coating. There are a few manufacturers that use powder coating, but it'll take some searching and careful reading of their descriptions to verify.
- Powder coating, when cured, will handle more heat than the lead underneath it. While it is a polymer, which most of us would think of as plastic, it's a "thermo-set" polymer, meaning once cured it doesn't melt - you can heat it up until it just burns away, but that generally takes more time and heat than a bullet is exposed to. Partly because of that heat resistance, but also because of its slickness, it works well as a boundary layer between the lead bullet and the steel barrel rifling, so as the bullet slides along the rifling that coating doesn't melt or wear away, IF the bullet is sized correctly*.
- Flame cutting requires flow of hot gasses past the thing being cut, just like oxy-acetylene torch cutting, or even like river water wearing away a sand bank. The point is that it doesn't happen just because of heat and pressure on the bullet base; there has to be a leak somewhere past that base for flame cutting to happen. That could be an undersized bullet, or gas escaping as the bullet base jumps a revolver forcing cone gap, or as the base passes a gas port in a semi-auto rifle or pistol. In those situations, powder coating is more forgiving than bare lead, but still has its limits and can be flame cut.
It's worth noting too, that in the case of an undersized bullet, a gas check doesn't seal any better than the bullet itself, but since the copper gas check can't be flame cut it protects the bullet base. I've recovered bullets that showed flame cutting in front of the gas check, along the driving bands, but because the gas check acts as a scraper in the bore there was no visible leading left in the barrel.
- In regards to getting a wax lubed bullet hard enough or fit well enough for high velocity - it is possible with extreme care, but most of us who've tried that experience leading, sometimes pretty severely. IMO, part of the reason for this is just friction between the barrel and bullet, to the point that it starts to deposit hot lead on the bore. Powder coating solves that though, by acting as that friction-reducing boundary layer I mentioned above, so the lead just never touches the bore in the first place. With that problem solved, it's a lot easier to achieve high velocity with no leading - all you need is a good gas seal, and that can be accomplished through bullet fit, hardness, and even a gas check if desired.
I'll also point out that while it's fairly easy to push powder coated lead to high velocity without any leading, it's more difficult to do so with good accuracy - that requires choosing the right alloy and hardness to handle the pressure, and the right bullet designs of course. As I mentioned earlier, eliminating lube grooves helps a lot with this, because they tend to collapse under pressure without something to fill them. Eliminating the lube grooves also makes bullets easier to cast, and provides more driving band surface and rifling grip, while shortening the bullet and increasing case capacity for a given bullet weight and style - seems like a win-win to me.
To answer your final question, yes IMO, if that 125gr bullet you mention is sized properly and has a good powder coating, you should be able to push it to 2200 fps in a 357 Mag rifle pretty easily. I wouldn't promise the same for Hi-Tek coated bullets, and keep in mind that sometimes commercial bullets vary a bit in size so you'll get maybe 8 or 9 out of 10 that fit right, and one or two that are undersized and lead the bore or fly off target wildly.
It's also been my experience that you can push a good coated bullet in something like your 357 faster than a comparable jacketed bullet before running into pressure limitations, because of the lower starting forces and lower bore friction compared to jacketed bullets. (Try driving a lead bullet through your barrel, then try it with a jacketed bullet, you'll see what I mean pretty quick.)
There's probably more to say, but this is already pretty long winded so I'll leave it there for now.
Do you know who manufacturers properly powder coated bullets?
I just bought some Bearcreek Supply 400 grain coated bullets for my 45-70. This particular bullet does not have lube groves like their 405. Their gooved 405 shot very well in my 1886, so I’m hoping these non-grooved 400 shoot even better. I’m not sure what kind of coating is on the bullet, but I’m not running these over 1400 fps, so it probably does not matter as long as they fit the bore properly. My load that shot well with the grooved 405’s was 27.0 grains of 5744 which averaged 1286 fps.
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I was buying mine from Beartooth Bullets, however I think he may have closed up.
I have gas checked bullets from Beartooth as well and they were nicely made. It is my understanding he is no longer in business and sadly all the loading information that was on his sight is no longer accessible. I’m not sure why he closed up his shop.
Same thing happened to Penn Bullets. My understanding is that the owner of Penn Bullets passed away during Covid. I still have a good supply of his bullets for my pistol caliber lever guns, but will likely switch to Bearcreek when I run out.
You know, it's been a couple years since I paid much attention to who was using powder coating (commercially), but after doing some googling I'm not seeing anyone specifically listing that - so maybe no longer offered?
Those Bear Creek bullets are something a little different that pre-dates powder coating; I have a bunch of those too and like them. Seems like their coating must have graphite or something like that in it. They won't handle the higher velocity and pressure of a hard cast powder coated bullet, but they're great within their intended use. That should be a really good bullet for your 45-70, as long as the driving bands are slightly (.001" or more) larger than the rifled bore.
