<span style="font-weight: bold"> </span> Will this system give an edge to accuracy in a custom 308 using a stock firing pin and spring?
SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
- Thread starter Highflyer
- Start date
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
The reduction in lock time can potentially increase accuracy. I have never played with before/after results so I can't say it will be a significant or even noticeable improvement over stock.
I think were one might notice the biggest benefit to reduced lock time is when shooting offhand or an unsupported position.
Kirk R
The reduction in lock time can potentially increase accuracy. I have never played with before/after results so I can't say it will be a significant or even noticeable improvement over stock.
I think were one might notice the biggest benefit to reduced lock time is when shooting offhand or an unsupported position.
Kirk R
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Not much. Just a harder bolt lift and an increased chance of firing pin breakage. JMHO
Not much. Just a harder bolt lift and an increased chance of firing pin breakage. JMHO
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Forgive my noobness but I have seen several references to lock time but no understandable explanation of what it is?
Forgive my noobness but I have seen several references to lock time but no understandable explanation of what it is?
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
http://www.davidtubb.com/speedlock.html
from the website
"The result is simple: a reduction in lock time will cause your rifle to hit closer to where you held the sight when you pulled the trigger. Everyone's rifle is moving when it's fired. The amount of movement may be almost imperceptible, but that's all it takes. If you're shooting at a trophy deer at 300 yards, movement at the muzzle of only 0.058 inches means a missed animal. If you're a competitive silhouette shooter, just 0.022 movement makes the difference between a hit and a miss on a 500 meter ram. When lock time is reduced, the probability of hitting your target is increased. SpeedLock Systems helps squeeze that last ounce of accuracy from your rifle, and accomplishes this with a minimum of time, effort, and cost (must be installed by a competent gunsmith)."
http://www.davidtubb.com/speedlock.html
from the website
"The result is simple: a reduction in lock time will cause your rifle to hit closer to where you held the sight when you pulled the trigger. Everyone's rifle is moving when it's fired. The amount of movement may be almost imperceptible, but that's all it takes. If you're shooting at a trophy deer at 300 yards, movement at the muzzle of only 0.058 inches means a missed animal. If you're a competitive silhouette shooter, just 0.022 movement makes the difference between a hit and a miss on a 500 meter ram. When lock time is reduced, the probability of hitting your target is increased. SpeedLock Systems helps squeeze that last ounce of accuracy from your rifle, and accomplishes this with a minimum of time, effort, and cost (must be installed by a competent gunsmith)."
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Thanks for the link
"Lock time is the time between the trigger break and primer ignition."
Thanks for the link
"Lock time is the time between the trigger break and primer ignition."
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
If you follow through on the trigger it is a complete non-issue, because with follow through there is no movement. It is when your finger comes off the trigger during firing you have movement, which means improper form that a few milliseconds won't fix.
As well true lock time is the the it takes the shooter to make the decision to fire until the time he actually presses the trigger. We see evidence of this with moving targets. Two shooters, same target, same hit rate but different leads.
Basically a waste of money.
If you follow through on the trigger it is a complete non-issue, because with follow through there is no movement. It is when your finger comes off the trigger during firing you have movement, which means improper form that a few milliseconds won't fix.
As well true lock time is the the it takes the shooter to make the decision to fire until the time he actually presses the trigger. We see evidence of this with moving targets. Two shooters, same target, same hit rate but different leads.
Basically a waste of money.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
It's hard to argue with someone like David Tubb. That said, I've had just about every other knowledgeable person: shooters, action makers, gunsmiths, tell me it's not a great idea. The biggest complaint is that it can cause inconsistent ignition.
Regarding the lock-time improvement, Remingtons already have extremely fast lock times. The only reason to squeeze out a little faster lock time is if you shoot off-hand a lot. I doubt most people on this forum shoot offhand a lot.
Personally, I tried the tubb system and found it reliable and functional. I think you'd have to do an elaborate scientific test to get to the bottom of this question.
One thing I DO think makes a ton of sense is using the CS firing pin spring. There is no question that chrome silicon springs are superior to regular ones.
It's hard to argue with someone like David Tubb. That said, I've had just about every other knowledgeable person: shooters, action makers, gunsmiths, tell me it's not a great idea. The biggest complaint is that it can cause inconsistent ignition.
Regarding the lock-time improvement, Remingtons already have extremely fast lock times. The only reason to squeeze out a little faster lock time is if you shoot off-hand a lot. I doubt most people on this forum shoot offhand a lot.
Personally, I tried the tubb system and found it reliable and functional. I think you'd have to do an elaborate scientific test to get to the bottom of this question.
One thing I DO think makes a ton of sense is using the CS firing pin spring. There is no question that chrome silicon springs are superior to regular ones.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Frank; Really? Your point misses the point. We agree a projectile impacts relative to the direction the muzzle was pointed at the time of muzzle exit. Let the point in time the striker is released (event-1) and the point in time of muzzle exit (event-2) be function A, for example. Let movement of the rifle in that interim period between event 1 and 2 be function B, for example. Depending on shooter position, skill, etc., B varies. When time between event 1 and 2 is shorter function "A" is less adverse to accuracy. An offhand shooter, for example, will experience generally more movement during "A" than a prone shooter, generally. Time between striker release and ignition of the primer is lock time. When lock time is more brief, and the shooter has achieved release of the hammer or striker while the muzzle covers the intended target, a desired hit may occur, factors like wind being favorable. Follow-through is not ignored.
How could we argue with David Tubb? I know he tried a sniper match and didn't win but that's probably due to experienced gaming, in my opinion, being important to winning in addition to luck and good shooting. Seems logical and practical that faster lock time is better. Why is a faster hammer a major design feature of the Giessele Ar trigger?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you follow through on the trigger it is a complete non-issue, because with follow through there is no movement. It is when your finger comes off the trigger during firing you have movement, which means improper form that a few milliseconds won't fix.
As well true lock time is the the it takes the shooter to make the decision to fire until the time he actually presses the trigger. We see evidence of this with moving targets. Two shooters, same target, same hit rate but different leads.
Basically a waste of money. </div></div>
Frank; Really? Your point misses the point. We agree a projectile impacts relative to the direction the muzzle was pointed at the time of muzzle exit. Let the point in time the striker is released (event-1) and the point in time of muzzle exit (event-2) be function A, for example. Let movement of the rifle in that interim period between event 1 and 2 be function B, for example. Depending on shooter position, skill, etc., B varies. When time between event 1 and 2 is shorter function "A" is less adverse to accuracy. An offhand shooter, for example, will experience generally more movement during "A" than a prone shooter, generally. Time between striker release and ignition of the primer is lock time. When lock time is more brief, and the shooter has achieved release of the hammer or striker while the muzzle covers the intended target, a desired hit may occur, factors like wind being favorable. Follow-through is not ignored.
How could we argue with David Tubb? I know he tried a sniper match and didn't win but that's probably due to experienced gaming, in my opinion, being important to winning in addition to luck and good shooting. Seems logical and practical that faster lock time is better. Why is a faster hammer a major design feature of the Giessele Ar trigger?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you follow through on the trigger it is a complete non-issue, because with follow through there is no movement. It is when your finger comes off the trigger during firing you have movement, which means improper form that a few milliseconds won't fix.
As well true lock time is the the it takes the shooter to make the decision to fire until the time he actually presses the trigger. We see evidence of this with moving targets. Two shooters, same target, same hit rate but different leads.
Basically a waste of money. </div></div>
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Please spare me,
First off the lock time on a bolt versus versus an AR are a world of difference in terms of milliseconds, so it Is apples and oranges, and as stated, 15 lbs bolt guns aren't be shot offhand for accuracy in this game. It's a non-issue with a tactical rifle.
It' being misrepresented in what you are trying to accomplish, the speed lock isn't the answer here.
Please spare me,
First off the lock time on a bolt versus versus an AR are a world of difference in terms of milliseconds, so it Is apples and oranges, and as stated, 15 lbs bolt guns aren't be shot offhand for accuracy in this game. It's a non-issue with a tactical rifle.
It' being misrepresented in what you are trying to accomplish, the speed lock isn't the answer here.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
My father taught me follow thru when I was 10 with the 1903 he carried in Korea, it hurt like hell but those words still run thru my head when I am shooting.
My father taught me follow thru when I was 10 with the 1903 he carried in Korea, it hurt like hell but those words still run thru my head when I am shooting.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
If you're gonna squeeze every ounce of accuracy outta the system, where is the product advocating you remove the bipod and mount it at the muzzle ? Changing the focal point of the bipod increases accuracy too but I do see the 18" extension to move the bipod forward, wonder why?
If you're gonna squeeze every ounce of accuracy outta the system, where is the product advocating you remove the bipod and mount it at the muzzle ? Changing the focal point of the bipod increases accuracy too but I do see the 18" extension to move the bipod forward, wonder why?
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
The main question here is which action he has on his custom. If he has a custom action then it probably has a precise firing pin. If he is using a factory action then it may help some. I've not seen a lot of difference in my guns with upgraded pins but they certainly have not gotten worse.
Lee
The main question here is which action he has on his custom. If he has a custom action then it probably has a precise firing pin. If he is using a factory action then it may help some. I've not seen a lot of difference in my guns with upgraded pins but they certainly have not gotten worse.
Lee
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
</div></div>
Now that's good to know, reason enough to ditch my Tubb firing pins.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
</div></div>
Now that's good to know, reason enough to ditch my Tubb firing pins.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Like you said before, lock-time is already fast enough on the 700. Use a good spring but nix the alloy pins
Like you said before, lock-time is already fast enough on the 700. Use a good spring but nix the alloy pins
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
David Tubb is an awesome shooter, hence all the High Power Championships and the gaggle of Silhouette Championships.
His Speed-Lock systems were developed to decrease lock time, the milli seconds that pass between when the trigger sear breaks and the primer fires. Decreasing this time helps most when shooting off-hand, standing shakily on two legs with only the shoulder and two hands supporting the rifle. A quarter of High Power and all of Silhouette is shot off-hand.
Light firing pins are fun. If you think they give you an edge, they do (like wearing my lucky green socks).
Go with the firing pin that your rifle designer used. It takes a certian amount of mass to smack a primer to life.
David Tubb is an awesome shooter, hence all the High Power Championships and the gaggle of Silhouette Championships.
His Speed-Lock systems were developed to decrease lock time, the milli seconds that pass between when the trigger sear breaks and the primer fires. Decreasing this time helps most when shooting off-hand, standing shakily on two legs with only the shoulder and two hands supporting the rifle. A quarter of High Power and all of Silhouette is shot off-hand.
Light firing pins are fun. If you think they give you an edge, they do (like wearing my lucky green socks).
Go with the firing pin that your rifle designer used. It takes a certian amount of mass to smack a primer to life.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please spare me,
First off the lock time on a bolt versus versus an AR are a world of difference in terms of milliseconds, so it Is apples and oranges, and as stated, 15 lbs bolt guns aren't be shot offhand for accuracy in this game. It's a non-issue with a tactical rifle.
It' being misrepresented in what you are trying to accomplish, the speed lock isn't the answer here. </div></div>
The topic is one about bolt guns rather than AR's. As for AR's, Guiselle's hammer time is 50% faster than others. For a reason. Lock time is important. If you think not, keep thinking that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please spare me,
First off the lock time on a bolt versus versus an AR are a world of difference in terms of milliseconds, so it Is apples and oranges, and as stated, 15 lbs bolt guns aren't be shot offhand for accuracy in this game. It's a non-issue with a tactical rifle.
It' being misrepresented in what you are trying to accomplish, the speed lock isn't the answer here. </div></div>
The topic is one about bolt guns rather than AR's. As for AR's, Guiselle's hammer time is 50% faster than others. For a reason. Lock time is important. If you think not, keep thinking that.
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
</div></div>
Now that's good to know, reason enough to ditch my Tubb firing pins. </div></div>
Hmmm... Got a few thousand rounds through a 700SA with the Speedlock setup and no problems. Rifle started as a 6mm VLS, after a few years I rebarrelled to .22-250AI and still no problems. If you're ditching your Speedlocks, and any of them are for Rem 700, PM me.
1911fan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
</div></div>
Now that's good to know, reason enough to ditch my Tubb firing pins. </div></div>
Hmmm... Got a few thousand rounds through a 700SA with the Speedlock setup and no problems. Rifle started as a 6mm VLS, after a few years I rebarrelled to .22-250AI and still no problems. If you're ditching your Speedlocks, and any of them are for Rem 700, PM me.
1911fan
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
</div></div>
Now that's good to know, reason enough to ditch my Tubb firing pins. </div></div>
Hmmm... Got a few thousand rounds through a 700SA with the Speedlock setup and no problems. Rifle started as a 6mm VLS, after a few years I rebarrelled to .22-250AI and still no problems. If you're ditching your Speedlocks, and any of them are for Rem 700, PM me.
1911fan </div></div>
Dry fire one a few hundred times and report back on how much you LOVE the alloy pin
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tactical/field rifles = reliability first, accuracy second.
If that equation is true, stick to a steel firing pin. The alloy ones are prone to breaking. I've had two speedlocks shear in half just behind the firing pin head.
</div></div>
Now that's good to know, reason enough to ditch my Tubb firing pins. </div></div>
Hmmm... Got a few thousand rounds through a 700SA with the Speedlock setup and no problems. Rifle started as a 6mm VLS, after a few years I rebarrelled to .22-250AI and still no problems. If you're ditching your Speedlocks, and any of them are for Rem 700, PM me.
1911fan </div></div>
Dry fire one a few hundred times and report back on how much you LOVE the alloy pin
Re: SPEED LOCK FIRING PIN and SPRING
Probably least for the kind of stationary/supported shooting we do. It would be of most advantage during unsupported or action style shooting, where the shooter must accomodate a firearm in motion.
Probably least for the kind of stationary/supported shooting we do. It would be of most advantage during unsupported or action style shooting, where the shooter must accomodate a firearm in motion.
